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Old 02-04-10, 05:12 AM   #1
dewulf
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Sigma Rox 8 vs Trelock comps vs other w cadence+hrm?

Hi All,

This will be my first bike computer ever, but having cadence is essential, and from what i've seen if you're getting cadence you might as well get HRM...and that'll be super interesting anyway.

So that's lead me to look at the sigma rox 8, which has the added bonus of gradient functions.....

http://www.sigmasport.com/en/produkte/b ... ss/rox_80/



But pretty similar are these models from Trelock....

http://www.trelock.de/web/en/produkte/f ... B_3000.php

http://www.trelock.de/web/en/produkte/f ... _4000i.php

hard finding any reviews of them though, would anyone have any feedback on them, or of course the Sigma Rox, or anything else that would tick the cadence+hrm boxes, at the lower end of the price scale.....?

Thanks!
D
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Old 02-04-10, 02:35 PM   #2
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Don't forget about VDO Z3 PC-Link @ http://www.cycleparts.de/en/produkte...nk/funktionen/

It even has calculated power with optional cadence and the ability to upload to Windows PC to see all the HRM/Power/Altimiter/Cadence graphs using included software. Actualy, I'm going to put a new unit that includes an optional cadence sensor on Ebay in the next couple of weeks or so. Selling it because got into the PowerTap game/using a Linux computer & do not want to install Windows just to use VDO....
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Old 02-06-10, 08:09 AM   #3
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Don't forget about VDO Z3 PC-Link @ http://www.cycleparts.de/en/produkte...nk/funktionen/

It even has calculated power with optional cadence and the ability to upload to Windows PC to see all the HRM/Power/Altimiter/Cadence graphs using included software. Actualy, I'm going to put a new unit that includes an optional cadence sensor on Ebay in the next couple of weeks or so. Selling it because got into the PowerTap game/using a Linux computer & do not want to install Windows just to use VDO....
thanks for bringing that one up, happy to see another contender on the table. The z3 looks very nice, especially with the power measurement. Brand new it's probably more than i was budgeting for, 2nd hand it may be an option, but even the z2 has the cadence + HRM + gradient measures i was looking for ....thanks again for the heads-up!
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Old 02-06-10, 09:07 AM   #4
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The Sigma 8 is a high quality unit with a large display. One feature you did not mention is altimeter. athe ROX 8 does that as well. As a bonus it is PC sync capable. Though you need to buy the software and sync harness separately. Besides having a large display I think there is little difference between the ROX 8 and the Topline computers.

By contrast if you get the ROX 9, you get the software and sync harness with the unit. Aditionally, the ROX 9 also keeps detailed logs of your ride that you can analyze with the PC software.
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Old 02-06-10, 10:59 AM   #5
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The Sigma 8 is a high quality unit with a large display. One feature you did not mention is altimeter. athe ROX 8 does that as well. As a bonus it is PC sync capable. Though you need to buy the software and sync harness separately. Besides having a large display I think there is little difference between the ROX 8 and the Topline computers.

By contrast if you get the ROX 9, you get the software and sync harness with the unit. Aditionally, the ROX 9 also keeps detailed logs of your ride that you can analyze with the PC software.
Sigma ROX 9.0 trumps all the computers discussed here except possibly the Z3. As mentioned, the logging function lets you look at your ride profile as a graph on a PC. However, mastering all the functions takes time and there is an error in the Sigma Data Center software involving average inclination when the computer is set to imperial units (mph/feet). But the unit itself works fine and is nearly identical to the Sigma ROX 8.0. Also, after many emails I believe Sigma will correct the software error--in the meantime I'm really getting into the metric system of km/h, meters, and degrees Celsius!

System requirements of any multi-function bike computer should be: year long battery life with easy replacement, data stays in memory when taking rest breaks, accurate slope and temperature measurement, and custom display configurations of any data simultaneously.

This short list probably rules out all of the computers out there. Garmins have short battery life and no temp (except for new Edge 500) or slope, Polar loses data when you take a break (unless you bring it with you), and the Sigma ROX computers do not allow simultaneous display of heart rate and stopwatch.

I have yet to see the perfect bike computer.

Last edited by sierrabob; 02-06-10 at 11:09 AM. Reason: software correction note
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Old 02-06-10, 05:14 PM   #6
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+1 for the Sigma Rox 9.0. Spring for the 9.0. The computer logging is very helpful. The only thing I wish it did was log cadence. It keeps average cadence, but I'd like to see it log cadence so I can see how my cadence changes at different points in a ride. I agree the average inclination doesn't work (glad to know it's being looked into), but it does seem to track inclination consistently, if not completely accurately. I ride the same roads over and over and the 9.0 consistently gives the same inclination readings for the same hills. It's not the cheapest computer out there, but I think it's the most complete. I ride with friends who have almost all Cateye models and a few Garmins and I think my 9.0 has the best overall features.
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Old 02-06-10, 07:24 PM   #7
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+1 for the Sigma Rox 9.0. Spring for the 9.0. The computer logging is very helpful. The only thing I wish it did was log cadence. It keeps average cadence, but I'd like to see it log cadence so I can see how my cadence changes at different points in a ride. I agree the average inclination doesn't work (glad to know it's being looked into), but it does seem to track inclination consistently, if not completely accurately. I ride the same roads over and over and the 9.0 consistently gives the same inclination readings for the same hills. It's not the cheapest computer out there, but I think it's the most complete. I ride with friends who have almost all Cateye models and a few Garmins and I think my 9.0 has the best overall features.
FYI the ROX 9.0 average inclination percentage is off by exactly 5.28 when set to mph/feet. Divide any percentage by this factor to see the true inclination percentage. The bug occurs due software code setting the ratio of feet (elevation gain/loss) to miles (distance traveled) by using a 1000 conversion factor rather than 5280. The 1000 factor was carried over from the metric ratio for average inclination by mistake.
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Old 02-06-10, 10:04 PM   #8
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+1 for the Sigma Rox 9.0. Spring for the 9.0. The computer logging is very helpful. The only thing I wish it did was log cadence. It keeps average cadence, but I'd like to see it log cadence so I can see how my cadence changes at different points in a ride. I agree the average inclination doesn't work (glad to know it's being looked into), but it does seem to track inclination consistently, if not completely accurately. I ride the same roads over and over and the 9.0 consistently gives the same inclination readings for the same hills. It's not the cheapest computer out there, but I think it's the most complete. I ride with friends who have almost all Cateye models and a few Garmins and I think my 9.0 has the best overall features.

thanks, i think you point out a few good things to know that i hadn't heard of yet. cheers!
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Old 02-06-10, 10:06 PM   #9
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The Sigma 8 is a high quality unit with a large display. One feature you did not mention is altimeter. athe ROX 8 does that as well. As a bonus it is PC sync capable. Though you need to buy the software and sync harness separately. Besides having a large display I think there is little difference between the ROX 8 and the Topline computers.

By contrast if you get the ROX 9, you get the software and sync harness with the unit. Aditionally, the ROX 9 also keeps detailed logs of your ride that you can analyze with the PC software.
actually i did mention gradient functions, which seem to come part and parcel with any altimeter functions. but thanks for taking the time to respond =)
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Old 02-06-10, 10:12 PM   #10
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Sigma ROX 9.0 trumps all the computers discussed here except possibly the Z3. As mentioned, the logging function lets you look at your ride profile as a graph on a PC. However, mastering all the functions takes time and there is an error in the Sigma Data Center software involving average inclination when the computer is set to imperial units (mph/feet). But the unit itself works fine and is nearly identical to the Sigma ROX 8.0. Also, after many emails I believe Sigma will correct the software error--in the meantime I'm really getting into the metric system of km/h, meters, and degrees Celsius!

System requirements of any multi-function bike computer should be: year long battery life with easy replacement, data stays in memory when taking rest breaks, accurate slope and temperature measurement, and custom display configurations of any data simultaneously.

This short list probably rules out all of the computers out there. Garmins have short battery life and no temp (except for new Edge 500) or slope, Polar loses data when you take a break (unless you bring it with you), and the Sigma ROX computers do not allow simultaneous display of heart rate and stopwatch.

I have yet to see the perfect bike computer.

thanks sierrabob, all good points, and i'm especially feeling the value of having accurate gradient measurement - fortunately, metric is standard where I'm from, unless we're talking about our own height, lol. glad you're getting into it though

meanwhile no one's said much about reliability issues for the sigmas which is good, and yes the z3 and the Rox 9 are facing off for the final eliminator it seems.
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Old 02-07-10, 12:52 AM   #11
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FWIW, I've found the build quality of the VDO computers I've had over the years to be rock solid, and I've put mine through tons of abuse.
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Old 02-07-10, 07:53 AM   #12
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thanks sierrabob, all good points, and i'm especially feeling the value of having accurate gradient measurement - fortunately, metric is standard where I'm from, unless we're talking about our own height, lol. glad you're getting into it though

meanwhile no one's said much about reliability issues for the sigmas which is good, and yes the z3 and the Rox 9 are facing off for the final eliminator it seems.
My Sigma BC has performed reliably for over a year now after traveling far and wide in rain, cold, and heat.

Another cool feature common to both Sigma ROX 8.0 AND 9.0 is the rise rate readout--not rise per mile as I had thought for a long time, but rise per minute--basically how hard are you attacking a climb. While 11 meters/min seems like a fair pace on a 7% grade, try keeping that rate as the grade shallows. This really makes you work harder and added 1000 calories to a recent 100km effort.
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Old 02-07-10, 12:24 PM   #13
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thanks for bringing that one up, happy to see another contender on the table. The z3 looks very nice, especially with the power measurement. Brand new it's probably more than i was budgeting for, 2nd hand it may be an option, but even the z2 has the cadence + HRM + gradient measures i was looking for ....thanks again for the heads-up!
You just missed a nice used unit on Ebay for $112:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Mine is probably going to fetch twice that amount if I decide to sell it at all... I do not know what new wireless technology Sigma Rox uses but the VDO Z-Series use ANT+Sport 2.4. It means that I'll be able to use the Speed/Cadence/HRM with the Powertap Cervo computer (Powertap confirmed it) that I just got off Ebay without a cadence/HRM sensors or the Garmin Edge in case I do not like the Powertap... Also, you can wear the VDO as a watch and that's useful for hiking... BTW, I've been using Sigma BC1606 & VDO C3 DS for last two year (having several bikes is very nice) and like them very much. Sigma has a very limited range for the speed sensor though. The VDO has been flawless and it's great to have all the sensors on the rear wheel for the use on the trainer...

Last edited by rfomenko; 02-07-10 at 12:29 PM.
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Old 02-07-10, 05:21 PM   #14
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You just missed a nice used unit on Ebay for $112:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Mine is probably going to fetch twice that amount if I decide to sell it at all... I do not know what new wireless technology Sigma Rox uses but the VDO Z-Series use ANT+Sport 2.4. It means that I'll be able to use the Speed/Cadence/HRM with the Powertap Cervo computer (Powertap confirmed it) that I just got off Ebay without a cadence/HRM sensors or the Garmin Edge in case I do not like the Powertap... Also, you can wear the VDO as a watch and that's useful for hiking... BTW, I've been using Sigma BC1606 & VDO C3 DS for last two year (having several bikes is very nice) and like them very much. Sigma has a very limited range for the speed sensor though. The VDO has been flawless and it's great to have all the sensors on the rear wheel for the use on the trainer...
Sigma uses a proprietary technology with the ROX computers. There is no interference from other nearby wireless computers, but certain lights, notably Magicshines, will interfere if the light wiring is within four inches of the computer. Also, no interface is possible with Powertap.

Not sure if the VDO Z3 acts like the Polar watch--but guys I ride with complain that the high end Polar must be reset and dumps all ride data if you leave it on the bike for a rest stop.
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Old 02-08-10, 04:10 PM   #15
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...and the Sigma ROX computers do not allow simultaneous display of heart rate and stopwatch.

I have yet to see the perfect bike computer.
Not true. The ROX 9 has a three row display. The top row will display one of 5 things.
1) Heartrate, Rise Rate, Cadence Altitude simultaneously
2) Heartrate
3) Inclination
4) Cadence
5) Altitude

You can select the top row display with the two top buttons (something I dislike about Cateye is their single button).

The center row (which as large as 3 of the others) ALWAYS displays speed, the Bike # (it will autosense between 2 bikes), alarm status, and an average speed indicator.

The 3rd row displays whatever you want. There are two "favorites" menu and you select whatever you would like to go into them. Whatever you want, there is a metric for it, you can count up or count down. However, the countdown timer you mention may not be in the default "Favorites A" or "Favorites B" menu so this is probably why you thought it wouldn't do it.

BTW, all of this stuff can be configured on your PC. You can save the settings from one computer and restore it on another. This was handy when Sigma warrantied mine due to a ROM error that bugged up the clock.

Last edited by willtsmith_nwi; 02-09-10 at 07:01 PM.
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Old 02-09-10, 07:00 PM   #16
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thanks for bringing that one up, happy to see another contender on the table. The z3 looks very nice, especially with the power measurement. Brand new it's probably more than i was budgeting for, 2nd hand it may be an option, but even the z2 has the cadence + HRM + gradient measures i was looking for ....thanks again for the heads-up!
I have to admit that their software looks a lot more advanced than Sigma right now. It even allows you to import gps data from a foreign device and integrate it into the ride. And it allows you to import old training data so you only need one program if you upgrade. Very nice.

http://www.cycleparts.de/en_media/pr...tion_pc_08.pdf

Sigma is supposed to release their 2.0 version software soon that will allow you to view rides in calendar views so it can actually be a training management software program. I'm sticking with Rox 9.0 for now over my two main bikes. In the future I would like to see a Rox 10 that will do everything a Garmin Edge 500 will do without Garmin's legendary software problems.
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Old 02-10-10, 05:30 PM   #17
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Not true. The ROX 9 has a three row display. The top row will display one of 5 things.
1) Heartrate, Rise Rate, Cadence Altitude simultaneously
2) Heartrate
3) Inclination
4) Cadence
5) Altitude

You can select the top row display with the two top buttons (something I dislike about Cateye is their single button).

The center row (which as large as 3 of the others) ALWAYS displays speed, the Bike # (it will autosense between 2 bikes), alarm status, and an average speed indicator.

The 3rd row displays whatever you want. There are two "favorites" menu and you select whatever you would like to go into them. Whatever you want, there is a metric for it, you can count up or count down. However, the countdown timer you mention may not be in the default "Favorites A" or "Favorites B" menu so this is probably why you thought it wouldn't do it.

BTW, all of this stuff can be configured on your PC. You can save the settings from one computer and restore it on another. This was handy when Sigma warrantied mine due to a ROM error that bugged up the clock.
Well, I cannot seem to configure my Sigma to show stopwatch and heartrate. Look at this image:



The "back" and "stop" icons replace the area where heart rate would be displayed. If there is another way to setup please let me know. Thanks
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Old 02-11-10, 08:33 PM   #18
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I have to admit that their software looks a lot more advanced than Sigma right now. It even allows you to import gps data from a foreign device and integrate it into the ride. And it allows you to import old training data so you only need one program if you upgrade. Very nice.

http://www.cycleparts.de/en_media/pr...tion_pc_08.pdf

Sigma is supposed to release their 2.0 version software soon that will allow you to view rides in calendar views so it can actually be a training management software program. I'm sticking with Rox 9.0 for now over my two main bikes. In the future I would like to see a Rox 10 that will do everything a Garmin Edge 500 will do without Garmin's legendary software problems.
VDO software linked above does offer more than Sigma Data Center; I especially like the Google Earth and wattage options. One nice Sigma feature is the zoom function. This allows you to zoom in on any portion of a ride for closer analysis of any parameter such as slope or heartrate. Not sure if VDO allows this. Maybe someone can comment. Thanks.

Garmin's problems aren't just software. The Edge 705 mount is not secure and the computer can easily dislodge and fall. The Edge 500 mount remedies this with a twist on twist off mount similar to Sigma.
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Old 02-13-10, 05:52 PM   #19
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You just missed a nice used unit on Ebay for $112:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Mine is probably going to fetch twice that amount if I decide to sell it at all... .
sorry i've been absent for a bit, and actually rfomenko i have to say "thanks" since it was actually me that picked up that vdo unit on ebay just awaiting delivery now, pretty happy about it now, couldn't find anyone with a trelock in stock in aus though the wholesaler gave me some names they all denied they sold them.

to give something back tho, one LBS i do trust have just got these in, and are recommending them as good, solid units that are also really reasonably priced (the cadence kit costs like $14AUS :

http://www.o-synce.com/en/product-macro-spec.html

German made, i don't get much out of the web site but this chart linked on their site tells you a bit:

http://www.o-synce.com/en/pdf/MACRO_Specs_EN.pdf
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Old 03-08-10, 09:25 PM   #20
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FYI the ROX 9.0 average inclination percentage is off by exactly 5.28 when set to mph/feet. Divide any percentage by this factor to see the true inclination percentage. The bug occurs due software code setting the ratio of feet (elevation gain/loss) to miles (distance traveled) by using a 1000 conversion factor rather than 5280. The 1000 factor was carried over from the metric ratio for average inclination by mistake.
Bob, I just noticed that the Rox 9.0 gives me different numbers for total uphill and downhill and maximum inclination in the Memory area versus the Logs area. I always reset my computer for each ride and then start the log as I start to roll, so there should be no difference between the stored memory and the corresponding ride log. This doesn't seem like it would be related to the calculation error you mentioned. Any idea whether Sigma knows about this issue? Thanks.
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Old 03-10-10, 08:38 AM   #21
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Bob, I just noticed that the Rox 9.0 gives me different numbers for total uphill and downhill and maximum inclination in the Memory area versus the Logs area. I always reset my computer for each ride and then start the log as I start to roll, so there should be no difference between the stored memory and the corresponding ride log. This doesn't seem like it would be related to the calculation error you mentioned. Any idea whether Sigma knows about this issue? Thanks.
Jim,

I can mostly attribute this to a difference in sampling intervals between the logbook and memory areas. Memory is constantly accumulating averaged readings using an undisclosed interval between data points. The logbook uses as small as a 5 sec interval, whereas memory is likely around 30 seconds (based on the observed lag in inclination and rise rate changes when climbing). This could be tested of course by setting your logbook capture interval to 30 seconds then comparing to memory. Note that the different numbers you mentioned earlier, uphill/downhill meters and inclination, all involve computations from raw data. Different sampling intervals would explain different results.

Try doing some testing over two or three minutes of climbing/descending using different recording intervals to see if you find better memory/log data matching. I'll review what I have and report back.

Bob
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Old 03-10-10, 09:28 PM   #22
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Thanks Bob. That makes sense. I'm still very happy with the Rox 9.0. It has some minor problems, but it delivers what I need and is very reliable.
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Old 03-11-10, 08:05 AM   #23
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Thanks Bob. That makes sense. I'm still very happy with the Rox 9.0. It has some minor problems, but it delivers what I need and is very reliable.
The theory I have is that the logbook is more precise and therefore more accurate. A recent workout found me climbing up a 14% grade and reaching a very high speed on the descent of this same hill. Check these numbers from memory:



I recall reading the 14% number out loud to the rider next to me and then comparing the max speed numbers at the bottom to his computer. He reported 52 mph, very close to the 84.52 km/h (52.4 mph) number I observed from my ROX 9.0.

However, when I later reviewed this area of the ride in the Log - Detail section of Sigma Data Center, I saw some different numbers, a max 17% pitch, and a max speed on the descent of a mere 80.68 km (50.02 mph), as shown in this image:



While I can explain the 17% logbook to 14% memory uphill inclination difference with my sampling interval theory, I cannot use this to explain why memory shows a higher max speed than the log. With the 5 second log interval I normally select, I would expect the logbook to always have the highest max values. Maybe someone out there has a better explanation. The more I work with this device, the more I realize its complicated design and feature set.
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