philbob57

Sorry for the basic nature of these questions ... I used to be an MCSE, but my mind is boggled by the capabilities of my phone.

I know I can use the GPS function with some apps to get current speed, average speed, distance for bike rides.

I use a Samsung Galaxy S4 running Android 4.4, and the web says it can connect to both Bluetooth and Ant+ devices.

Is there any advantage of one protocol over the other for a recreational rider?

What are the advantages, if any, to using a speed sensor instead of relying on the phone's GPS for speed? (Other than being able to track 'speed' on a trainer....)

Suppose I use the GPS to track speed and get a cadence sensor to track cadence? Is there anything meaningful that I'd miss with that approach?

Are there any budget sensors that work well - no freezes, easy setup, fast response, durable?

Are there any budget sensors that should be avoided?

I'm looking for a free app that is primarily a bike computer and which requires only the GPS feed from my phone (I don't want to incur any data charges) - any recommendations? (I don't want audible turn-by-turn directions, for example.)

I'd like to be able to get: 1) current speed, 2) average speed, 3) max speed, 4) trip distance, 5) total distance, 6) cadence, 7) clock-time for a ride, 8) riding time for a ride. OTOH, I'm experimenting with the 'bike computer Co' app with my phone in my pocket. After decades of riding with a computer on my handlebars, maybe real-time info is over-rated.

I have no desire to sync with social media.

Thanks in advance.

njkayaker

https://bikesmarts.com/4-iphone-andro...nsors-reviews/

Very few phones support ANT+. Every one of them supports BT.

Other than that, there isn't that much reason to prefer one over the other.

You can get a speed/cadence sensor that supports both.

Blue SC Wireless Speed & Cadence Cycling Sensor | Wahoo Fitness

This looks like the Bontrager ANT+ sensor I use (Wahoo might get it from the same manufacturer. The Bontrager sensor works fine.

If the head-unit has an accurate wheel circumference, the speed sensor (which counts wheel rotations) might be more accurate than GPS for measuring distance traveled. Wheel-sensor based speed is also more accurate (especially, for rapid changes in speed).

It seems these cost $50-60 (who knows if that is within what you mean by "budget").

I'd investigate (research) the Wahoo sensor I linked to above. Wahoo seems to be a reputable and smart company (IMO).

ericy

I have the BlueSC, and I find it frustrating for a couple of reasons. First of all, the rubber band that holds the magnet on the crank arm broke, and I lost the magnet. They sent a replacement - it broke too. I think it was just too tight of a fit.. I ended up getting a 3rd party magnet from eBay that I attached with a zip-tie.

The more serious issue is that it is finicky to keep adjusted. It used to be that I needed to tweak the position of the thing before every ride, and going over a bump would sometimes dislodge it and I would either need to stop and fix it, or just keep going. One suggestion that some have had is to attach the BlueSC with zip-ties to the bike frame and not use the rubber strap thing that doesn't hold things quite as securely.

Wahoo has two new sensors for speed and cadence that don't use magnets - I got those recently and my experience so far is that they are pretty foolproof. The speed sensor just wraps around the hub of one of the wheels, the cadence sensor is strapped to the inside of one of the crank arms.

njkayaker

I've had the Bontrager sensor for years and not had those problems. But it might not work the same on all bikes.

Crank arm magnets are a common problem​ (it's not just a Wahoo thing).

The magnet-less sensors might be a better option.

Bike Sensors with Wireless and Bluetooth Technology | Wahoo

The cadence and speed sensors are separate and cost $40 each.

Podagrower

For a phone based app, IPBike by I for Powell can't be beat. You can customize what the data it displays with just about infinite options. I went with Ant+ sensors, but only because I didn't want to have to buy new sensors if I went with a Garmin unit (which I did). A GPS speed and bike mounted speed should show the same average at the end of the ride (it's distance over time after all), but GPS isn't as good at figuring elevation, so your climbing and descending speeds will likely be off as will your speed when under thick tree cover. FWIW, I've had zero issues with the sensors I've got from Garmin, both the older GSC-10 and newer magnetless setups.

njkayaker

The Wahoo sensors support both ANT+ and BT. They will work with Garmins and any smartphone.

Stick69

Totally new to this topic with a new moto z play. I went with Wahoo for heart rate, cadence, and speed. We like the Wahoo ap HR range display and the verbal summary each mile. We are new to cycling and tandems so the feedback helps us manage level of effort and shifting. Wahoo will also share with Strava and MFP. The only issue I have had is the cadence and speed sensor will only pair with one phone so the stoker uses GPS speed and does not currently have cadence information.

You can put your phone in a jersey pocket and Wahoo will give you a verbal update either every mile or every five minutes. Just enough information to keep in the training zone you want.

njkayaker

That might be a limitation of BT.

Multiple ANT+ head units can share the same sensor.

Maybe, get a cheaper ANT+ head unit for your stoker.

The Bontrager Node computers use ANT+.

Stick69

Yes, I think it is a BT monogamy issue.

I am trying to decide between getting a cadence sensor or a ANT+ dongle for the stoker but I am not sure she needs the information. We have a lot of small hummocks on our MUP and I use speed and cadence to help time shifting, coasting, and pedaling. We use heart rate to try and stay in the zone we agreed for a particular ride.

ericy

I should caution that i have had bad luck with HRM that depended on talking to a phone in my back jersey pocket. The signal just wasn't strong enough to go through me. I experimented with various other places to carry the phone so that it could pick up a signal (and ended up cracking the screen on my phone when it popped out of the bag I had it in, and then I rode over it before I could stop.

Similarily the verbal updates are hard to hear if your phone is all the way in your back jersey pocket.

I know they are way more expensive, but a head unit that sits on the handlebar won't have these issues. But my old head unit was a Wahoo RFLKT, which is really just a remote display for a phone app, so the HRM problem I mentioned was present. When that thing died, I went with a head unit that did not depend on a phone. That plus the new magnetless sensors, and I have something that basically just works without lots of issues.

If all you want is to collect some data that you will review at a later time, you can probably get away without a head unit and just use a phone. The problems with HRM signal strength still apply however.

njkayaker

(You should interested in what your stoker wants as well as what she needs. )

The Wahoo sensors should be able to support a BT phone and multiple Ant+ head units at the same time.

An ANT+ dongle to plug into the phone? How well are these supported? I'd be concerned that it would be something that would get bumped/broken.

I'm not sure what sensor you do have. You can get a magnet-less Wahoo cadence sensor for $40. They also have a magnet-less speed sensor for the same price.

It seems more sensors makes more sense than fussing with a dongle (that you have to keep taking on and off).

Stick69

Truer words were never spoken.

andr0id

I primarily use my Samsung S7* as a diagnostic tool when my Garmin and ANT+ devices don't seem to be communicating or acting weird.

There is an application called "ANT+ Plugin Sampler" that will query and report all the ANT+ devices it finds. It also dumps a lot of good information about my Powertap hub including calibration and battery status.

For actual riding, I still use the Garmin 805 head though.

I absolutely know that multiple Garmin heads can monitor the same ANT+ sensors once they are registered with the Garmin. We set up our tandem that way to read the cadence and speed sensors.



* I don't know about other mfgs, but Samsung has supported ANT+ since at least the S4.

Seattle Forrest

Bluetooth is like a phone call, ANT+ is like a radio broadcast.

ericy

I thought ANT was a proprietary standard that Garmin came up with, and was more designed for working with sensors. Bluetooth (or the low-energy variant) is an open standard that is a more generic protocol that happens to work with sensorts.

njkayaker

It looks like Samsung and Sony support it fairly widely. Sony doesn't seem to sell many phones in the US. There are a few other manufacturers but the phones that having seem spotty.

https://www.thisisant.com/directory/filter/~/60/~/

philbob57

Thanks for the info, all.

I have a question about magnets. I solved one magnet problem by adding a Home Depot neodymium(?) magnet to the one provide by the packager. That solved the problem. Does that work for these types of sensors? (Of course, magnet-less sensors offer a different and perhaps better solution.)

My budget was originally $25, but having read complaints about so many of the offerings, and having read your comments, I've upped it to include the Wahoo combo or just the Wahoo RPM cadence sensor or some other offering that has a price which implies rigorous QC. Foolish, I know, but hope spring eternal. :-)

njkayaker

The sensors with magnets work the same. That is, you don't have to use the particular magnet that comes with the sensor.

Seattle Forrest

You're basically right. What I meant with my analogy is that ANT+ sensors can broadcast to multiple computers at the same time, like a radio, whereas BT sensors can only talk to one computer at a time.

That distinction is very important to some (few) people, and not at all important to others. But it's worth being aware of in case you're in the group it's important to.

andr0id

Garmin owns it Dynastream now, but they didn't own it when they originally invented the ANT protocol.

Bluetooth and BTLE are not open either though. If you want to make a BT device, you're going to pay a licensing fee to Bluetooth SIG or one of the chip mfgs such as Nordic to license the stack (and probably for a vendor ID and device ID.)

The one to many problem with BT has come up in other situations. One time a few of us had BT mini speakers and wanted to make them all play from the same phone. It can't be done, at least not without some kind of hack.

gbru316

IPBike + Cateye speed/cadence sensor + Garmin heart rate strap + phone mount for handlebars.

Gets you most of the functions of a high end Garmin (and then some) for a total cost of about $75

TimothyH

Wahoo RPM sensors support both BTLE and ANT+. They don't use magnets.

Seattle Forrest

False. Cannot use rear view radar to display cars behind you.

gbru316

The Varia is a standalone component that can integrate with their cyclocomputers but comes with a standalone display. You don't need a Garmin computer to use it.

Seattle Forrest

A high end Garmin can display the cars behind you using Varia radar. A phone cannot. Therefore, a phone cannot perform all the functions of a high end Garmin. Full stop.

I wish that it could.

Also, the Radar can be bought with or without the cheap head unit.