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  1. #51
    Captain Big Ring tractorlegs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agent pombero View Post
    Presumably Nachoman purchased a $200 Dinotte light because of its superior visibility, and therefore a safety advantage, compared to other lights like the Superflash...
    So your intent was that using the Superflash is much more dangerous because it's not as bright as the Dinotte . . . I'm a little thick headed sometimes

    I think that the bright lights that are not Dinotte are great. Superflash Turbo, Radbot 1000, the NR Cherrybomb, the new 2 watt from NR (don't remember it's name), and the Cygolite 2 watt (called the Hotshot) are all very bright and do the job. The Dinotte is much, much brighter, but it does not render the others dangerously dim - I personally would not use the Dinotte because where I ride that amount of brightness is just not necessary, but I can imagine applications/roads where it would be nice.
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  2. #52
    Captain Big Ring tractorlegs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    If you don't understand why a tail light that spends half the riding time in the OFF position is not effective as a tail light...it's unlikely explaining why would help.
    He was speaking about turning it off in a group ride when others in the herd have their taillights on, so it would not blind fellow cyclists that are following.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by tractorlegs View Post
    He was speaking about turning it off in a group ride when others in the herd have their taillights on, so it would not blind fellow cyclists that are following.
    If it's dim enough not to aggravate others in a group ride I doubt cars will be able to see the taillight (at least in direct sunlight.) So you better rely on the increased visibility afforded by riding in a group.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    If it's dim enough not to aggravate others in a group ride I doubt cars will be able to see the taillight (at least in direct sunlight.) So you better rely on the increased visibility afforded by riding in a group.
    That doesn't make any sense - you're not group riding in the dark vs being seen while it's daylight at the same time.

    If it's night time, I have no problem seeing people with blinking superflash tail lights while driving my car. I can see them a quarter mile ahead of me (and if I can't see them because of obstructions, the light intensity doesn't matter for the most part).

    If it's daytime, then the light doesn't bother other people in the group ride - because it's daytime.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    That doesn't make any sense - you're not group riding in the dark vs being seen while it's daylight at the same time.

    If it's night time, I have no problem seeing people with blinking superflash tail lights while driving my car. I can see them a quarter mile ahead of me (and if I can't see them because of obstructions, the light intensity doesn't matter for the most part).

    If it's daytime, then the light doesn't bother other people in the group ride - because it's daytime.
    Additionally, a group of cyclists is extremely visible. Much more so than a single cyclist.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
    Additionally, a group of cyclists is extremely visible. Much more so than a single cyclist.
    I would debate how practically true this is. The group as a whole is more visible, yes. If you're biking in daylight, this is generally true.

    If you're biking at night, and much (but not all) of the group has tail lights, I feel like those people without tail lights are less visible. If you have the person in the back with no tail light, the driver can see a bunch of tail lights and be focussed on them and not see the invisible rider. If you're careful to keep those people in the middle of the group it doesn't matter, but when that person is in the front, the back, or the person nearest the road in the group, it's the same as not being in a group if not worse, in my opinion.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    I would debate how practically true this is. The group as a whole is more visible, yes. If you're biking in daylight, this is generally true.

    If you're biking at night, and much (but not all) of the group has tail lights, I feel like those people without tail lights are less visible. If you have the person in the back with no tail light, the driver can see a bunch of tail lights and be focussed on them and not see the invisible rider. If you're careful to keep those people in the middle of the group it doesn't matter, but when that person is in the front, the back, or the person nearest the road in the group, it's the same as not being in a group if not worse, in my opinion.
    The reason that the person in the back should have a light is that it can't be obscured by other riders.

    If the driver is close enough to hit the cyclist, the rear lights aren't doing much of anything anyway (the lights are not typically pointed in a direction a close driver can see). The primary benefit of blinking rear lights is recognition-at-a-distance (like you indicated in the following).

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    If it's night time, I have no problem seeing people with blinking superflash tail lights while driving my car. I can see them a quarter mile ahead of me (and if I can't see them because of obstructions, the light intensity doesn't matter for the most part).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 01-16-13 at 11:39 AM.

  8. #58
    Senior Member Commodus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    I would debate how practically true this is. The group as a whole is more visible, yes. If you're biking in daylight, this is generally true.

    If you're biking at night, and much (but not all) of the group has tail lights, I feel like those people without tail lights are less visible. If you have the person in the back with no tail light, the driver can see a bunch of tail lights and be focussed on them and not see the invisible rider. If you're careful to keep those people in the middle of the group it doesn't matter, but when that person is in the front, the back, or the person nearest the road in the group, it's the same as not being in a group if not worse, in my opinion.
    Theoretically so, but practically incorrect.

    You don't have to take my word for it, simply observe a pack of cyclists in various light conditions.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    If it's daytime, then the light doesn't bother other people in the group ride - because it's daytime.
    People were posting in this thread that their Dinotte 300R's were too bright during the day and were annoying others on group rides. Are you disagreeing with what was posted by the 300R owners?

    At night I use a 99 cent blinkie and it's plenty bright. Daytime in direct sunlight is a completely different story. There are tons of cyclists around here that I pass in my car and virtually none of the blinkies I encounter can be seen in direct sunlight. Which, by the way, is why I got a 300R...
    Last edited by Dunbar; 01-16-13 at 01:56 PM.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    People were posting in this thread that their Dinotte 300R's were too bright during the day and were annoying others on group rides. Are you disagreeing with what was posted by the 300R owners?
    I skimmed the thread and didn't find a single person saying that. Please post a quote if someone did.

    Everyone was talking about it being to bright at night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    At night I use a 99 cent blinkie and it's plenty bright. Daytime in direct sunlight is a completely different story. There are tons of cyclists around here that I pass in my car and virtually none of the blinkies I encounter can be seen in direct sunlight. Which, by the way, is why I got a 300R...
    Right.

    But the argument was that the dinotte tail lights (I own the 180L or whatever the less bright version is called) don't have a low enough power setting *at night* for group rides.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodus View Post
    Theoretically so, but practically incorrect.

    You don't have to take my word for it, simply observe a pack of cyclists in various light conditions.
    I have, and I've had a few cyclists seem to show up out of nowhere from the middle of a pack when I was watching where the tail lights were. Now if they're in a well lit area, not such a big deal, but it's usually unevenly lit roads or completely unlit highway shoulders.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    The reason that the person in the back should have a light is that it can't be obscured by other riders.

    If the driver is close enough to hit the cyclist, the rear lights aren't doing much of anything anyway (the lights are not typically pointed in a direction a close driver can see). The primary benefit of blinking rear lights is recognition-at-a-distance (like you indicated in the following).
    If that was true then we'd have no need for tail lights. Anyone in a car close enough to actually hit us can't see the tail light, and everyone who can't see us isn't close enough to hit us, so no problem.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    I skimmed the thread and didn't find a single person saying that. Please post a quote if someone did....Everyone was talking about it being to bright at night.
    That is an assumption on your part. I'm going to assume the vast majority of group rides are done during the day. The only person who specified day or night was metalheart44 who wrote:

    "Quick test of the 300r this morning .... wife was behind me about 50 feet. She said she could not ride behind me because the 300r is too distracting/bright."

    But the argument was that the dinotte tail lights (I own the 180L or whatever the less bright version is called) don't have a low enough power setting *at night* for group rides.
    The three flashing modes on my 300R are too bright for night use, even when riding solo IMO. It's just obnoxiously bright after dark and probably looks like an ambulance strobe to cars. The steady (solid-on) modes have three different brightness settings to choose from. Although even on low it still is probably too bright for night use in a group ride IMO where people are riding in such close proximity. Imagine riding right behind a car with newer LED tail lights at close proximity and you get some idea of the brightness.
    Last edited by Dunbar; 01-16-13 at 02:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    If that was true then we'd have no need for tail lights. Anyone in a car close enough to actually hit us can't see the tail light, and everyone who can't see us isn't close enough to hit us, so no problem.
    No.

    What's odd is what you said earlier.

    Taillights give drivers a longer amount of time to register that there's a cyclist ahead and plan for passing the cyclist. Once the driver is close to the cyclist, the taillight is pointing in a completely different direction than towards the driver's eyes (and the tailight is usually too low as well). At that point (actually, earlier), the headlights are doing more to make the cyclist visible. (Note that these two things are not binary: the first blends into the second.)

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    If it's night time, I have no problem seeing people with blinking superflash tail lights while driving my car. I can see them a quarter mile ahead of me (and if I can't see them because of obstructions, the light intensity doesn't matter for the most part).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 01-16-13 at 03:58 PM.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    That is an assumption on your part. I'm going to assume the vast majority of group rides are done during the day. The only person who specified day or night was metalheart44 who wrote:

    "Quick test of the 300r this morning .... wife was behind me about 50 feet. She said she could not ride behind me because the 300r is too distracting/bright."



    The three flashing modes on my 300R are too bright for night use, even when riding solo IMO. It's just obnoxiously bright after dark and probably looks like an ambulance strobe to cars. The steady (solid-on) modes have three different brightness settings to choose from. Although even on low it still is probably too bright for night use in a group ride IMO where people are riding in such close proximity. Imagine riding right behind a car with newer LED tail lights at close proximity and you get some idea of the brightness.
    It's possible I've gotten confused about which light we're talking about, I own a Dinotte 140L, and it's fine during the day. That doesn't mean the 300r is - sorry.

    It's certainly a different discussion whether the dinotte tail light are to bright during the day, or whether they're to bright at night. I hadn't meant to say that a light that I haven't used wasn't to bright during the day - it's the 140L that I haven't had a problem with it's brightness in daytime riding (but have in night time riding).

    I don't think it's fair to assume we're only talking about daytime riding, but it's certainly a different discussion - I wouldn't disagree with you (not 100% sure I agree yet, but don't disagree really either) about it being safer riding in a group if we were only talking about daytime rides.

    I live in Minnesota, and night rides are fairly common when the sun starts to set at 5pm and such (4:30pm is about the earliest, but that's in Dec when there's far fewer group rides).

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    No.

    What's odd is what you said earlier.

    Taillights give drivers a longer amount of time to register that there's a cyclist ahead and plan for passing the cyclist. Once the driver is close to the cyclist, the taillight is pointing in a completely different direction than towards the driver's eyes (and the tailight is usually too low as well). At that point (actually, earlier), the headlights are doing more to make the cyclist visible. (Note that these two things are not binary: the first blends into the second.)
    No, I didn't say that I *believe* that no one needs a tail light, I said that I disagreed that it's only usefulness is for cars to far away to hit you.

    Maybe we're just going around with terminology here - for night riding I do not think that riding in a group that has tail lights, but you don't have a tail light, to be safer, unless you're careful never to be at the rear or street-side of the group. I have no problem saying that daylight riding is entirely different. :-)

  17. #67
    Senior Member metalheart44's Avatar
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    Although the 300R might be distracting for a cyclist riding directly behind another cyclist, I WANT the brightness it has for the solo riding I do during the day. I have a couple of friends I ride with, but they are usually riding in front of me, but I will ask their opinion about the daylight use of the 300R when riding with others. Personally, I would not want to be riding with someone else using this tail light, but then in a group situation the dynamics are different. Again, for daylight solo riding on rural/suburban roads, the 300R has the brightness I want in a tail light.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    If that was true then we'd have no need for tail lights. Anyone in a car close enough to actually hit us can't see the tail light, and everyone who can't see us isn't close enough to hit us, so no problem.
    This is a silly statement. No one is making this claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    No, I didn't say that I *believe* that no one needs a tail light, I said that I disagreed that it's only usefulness is for cars to far away to hit you.
    I didn't say you believed that.

    Taillights are much less useful close-up given how they are pointing and the narrow angle-width of the beam and where they are typically mounted on the bike (fairly low). It's easy to see that by looking at them. (A helmet mounted light is high enough but still usually pointed in the wrong direction and narrow.)

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    Maybe we're just going around with terminology here - for night riding I do not think that riding in a group that has tail lights, but you don't have a tail light, to be safer, unless you're careful never to be at the rear or street-side of the group. I have no problem saying that daylight riding is entirely different. :-)
    You are still safer riding without a taillight with other riders that have them where ever you are in the group for this reason. (Note that no one is claiming that you wouldn't be safer with a light.)

    This still works even if you are in the back unless the light is obscured. And while it's more likely that a light that is not at the rear is obscured, it won't always be obscured (another thing easly observed). You seem to think that the rear-light is the only way cyclists are detectable.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    If it's night time, I have no problem seeing people with blinking superflash tail lights while driving my car. I can see them a quarter mile ahead of me (and if I can't see them because of obstructions, the light intensity doesn't matter for the most part).
    Last edited by njkayaker; 01-16-13 at 05:42 PM.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Taillights are much less useful close-up given how they are pointing and where they are typically mounted on the bike (fairly low). It's easy to see that by looking at them. (A helmet mounted light is high enough but still usually pointed in the wrong direction.


    You still are still safer riding without a taillight with other riders that have them where ever you are in the group for this reason. This still works even if you are in the back unless the light is obscured. And while it's more likely that a light that is not at the rear is obscured, it won't always be obscured (another thing easly observed).
    For some reason nothing shows up in my browser after "for this reason".

  20. #70
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    Refresh it? The HTML looks OK. It works in Chrome and IE8.
    Last edited by njkayaker; 01-16-13 at 05:46 PM.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
    Refresh it? The HTML looks OK. It works in Chrome and IE8.
    It shows up now, the post says you edited it, maybe you were editing it while I was reading the first draft...

    Not 100% sure what you mean by the red text though - was it supposed to link somewhere?

    *If* we're talking about biking at night, and we're also talking about biking through areas that are unlit, it *is* pretty much my experience that the only way you're visible is with a rear light. If you're biking during the day, or in a consistently well lit area, things are different.

    Earlier this year I almost hit a guy who was biking down a street in an area with no lighting, he had no lights of his own, while I was pulling out of a parking spot. I only missed pulling out right in front of him because my tail lights happened to light up his front reflector *just* enough that I *barely* saw him and didn't pull out. I yes - I *was* deliberately looking behind me for bikes.

  22. #72
    Certified Bike Brat Burton's Avatar
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    Boy this thread is getting complicated! Personally I thought life was a little simpler than that! Myself, as a driver, if I saw a group of riders ahead on the road (regaress of if by flashong lights at night or color during the day), my response would be to immediately take my foot off the gas and pay close attention till past them.

    That would be WITHOUT counting the number of people in the group or weighing who did or didn't have lights or who was least conspicuous. So yeah -IMO any rider in a group benifits from the visibility of others. Worst case scenerio - a car headlights can actually pick out a ninja cyclist at 100 feet IF you are attentive and looking for it. Which would be the case when passing any group of cyclists once you've picked them out. As has already been pointed out - unlit riders just need to be in the center of the pack.

  23. #73
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    Observation update: went for a ride on this bright sunny day with my wife and had the 300R on steady mode highest brightness level and there were no issues with wife riding behind me. She commented that even in bliky mode, highest brightness, it was not "too distracting" meaning she could ride behind me and not be irritated or distracted. Ummm. maybe I should wear it even when off the bike

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechBgon View Post
    I also have some concern about the strength of the plastic in very cold weather, and might switch to a metal version with bolt-on mounting if it gets really cold here.
    I have a 300R. Great light. Does anyone know where to get a metal seatpost mount -- preferably with -- or without some kind of quick release for the light? I'd be glad to DIY something, if somebody has some suggestions for parts to do that.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Blue Roads; 12-23-13 at 01:04 AM.
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