Magicshine Battery Care
11-18-10, 11:49 PM
#26
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I can't hardly take so much BS at once.
Most of the crap in this thread should be called for what it is - crap.
Yes, it is possible to damage batteries, but starting a thread with BS is hardly doing anyone a service.
Most of the crap in this thread should be called for what it is - crap.
Yes, it is possible to damage batteries, but starting a thread with BS is hardly doing anyone a service.
11-19-10, 04:54 PM
#27
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On all but one charge (the most recent), I charged it after the Friday ride. That being said, until about 2 months ago (or 9 of the 11 months I've had it), it was always inside a bag and protected from the elements. I did waterproof it (plastidip, immediately after getting it). Between my morning and evening commutes (Tues and Fri), the bike w/attached light and battery are stored inside where it's approx. 68 degrees.
The short answer is yes, it gets charged within 20 minutes of the ride. But after only being outside for 40 mins after being inside for a minimum of 10 hrs prior. And, most times it was deep inside a handlebar bag. I doubt the battery has ever been exposed to temps below 45 degrees outside of the handlebar bag.
I just want to know what to do when, a- Geoman replaces it with a newer battery under the recall or, b- I get a new one, perhaps a Dinotte ($70).
The short answer is yes, it gets charged within 20 minutes of the ride. But after only being outside for 40 mins after being inside for a minimum of 10 hrs prior. And, most times it was deep inside a handlebar bag. I doubt the battery has ever been exposed to temps below 45 degrees outside of the handlebar bag.
I just want to know what to do when, a- Geoman replaces it with a newer battery under the recall or, b- I get a new one, perhaps a Dinotte ($70).
11-19-10, 11:06 PM
#28
Senior Member
This week, I fully charged the battery Monday. I rode 30 mins to work on medium. I rode home 40 minutes on SOS/flash. Today, I rode 30 mins to work on medium. 10 minutes into my ride home with it on SOS/flash, the LED was red.
I believe I have taken care of my battery and have not been abusive. What can I do differently to prolong the life of my next battery?
11-20-10, 12:51 AM
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To not be confusing and too long winded, I was generalizing my run times, which actually overstates them as of late. The short of it is, my commute route - and thus distance and light run time - vary depending on what shift I work.
This week, I fully charged the battery Monday. I rode 30 mins to work on medium. I rode home 40 minutes on SOS/flash. Today, I rode 30 mins to work on medium. 10 minutes into my ride home with it on SOS/flash, the LED was red.
I believe I have taken care of my battery and have not been abusive. What can I do differently to prolong the life of my next battery?
This week, I fully charged the battery Monday. I rode 30 mins to work on medium. I rode home 40 minutes on SOS/flash. Today, I rode 30 mins to work on medium. 10 minutes into my ride home with it on SOS/flash, the LED was red.
I believe I have taken care of my battery and have not been abusive. What can I do differently to prolong the life of my next battery?
The simple answer is don't ever let it hit the red, recharge often, don't overcharge it.
11-20-10, 07:37 AM
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To not be confusing and too long winded, I was generalizing my run times, which actually overstates them as of late. The short of it is, my commute route - and thus distance and light run time - vary depending on what shift I work.
This week, I fully charged the battery Monday. I rode 30 mins to work on medium. I rode home 40 minutes on SOS/flash. Today, I rode 30 mins to work on medium. 10 minutes into my ride home with it on SOS/flash, the LED was red.
I believe I have taken care of my battery and have not been abusive. What can I do differently to prolong the life of my next battery?
This week, I fully charged the battery Monday. I rode 30 mins to work on medium. I rode home 40 minutes on SOS/flash. Today, I rode 30 mins to work on medium. 10 minutes into my ride home with it on SOS/flash, the LED was red.
I believe I have taken care of my battery and have not been abusive. What can I do differently to prolong the life of my next battery?
11-20-10, 09:49 AM
#31
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[ Talking about LiPos and LiIons like the Magicshine uses ]
The charger and protective circuitry will prevent overcharging. If it doesn't, you run the risk of fire, so they're serious about this. Leaving it on the charger will not damage it.
If the battery gets hot (not just warm, but really, it should only get a tad bit warm) from charging, your battery is ruined -- perhaps your charger failed and ruined it, perhaps something inside broke and it's ruined -- but it's ruined.,
Yup (though overcharging is not much of a danger as long as you use the correct charger). Also, protect it from physical damage -- don't drop it. And don't let it get really hot, like leaving it in the sun in a hot car in a Texas summer.
As for deep discharging ... don't leave it plugged in. That little green/red light will slowly discharge the battery. The battery's circuit will cut off before it goes low enough to damage it -- but as said, deep discharges wear it out fast.
The charger and protective circuitry will prevent overcharging. If it doesn't, you run the risk of fire, so they're serious about this. Leaving it on the charger will not damage it.
If the battery gets hot (not just warm, but really, it should only get a tad bit warm) from charging, your battery is ruined -- perhaps your charger failed and ruined it, perhaps something inside broke and it's ruined -- but it's ruined.,
The simple answer is don't ever let it hit the red, recharge often, don't overcharge it.
As for deep discharging ... don't leave it plugged in. That little green/red light will slowly discharge the battery. The battery's circuit will cut off before it goes low enough to damage it -- but as said, deep discharges wear it out fast.
Last edited by dougmc; 11-20-10 at 02:22 PM. Reason: overcharging -> deep discharging
11-20-10, 10:15 AM
#32
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hopperja, keep in mind that this was a MS battery pack that dimish it's capacity. If it was any other non defective pack, then I would say, yeah you may have done something wrong wiith your maintenance care of your pack. Since this involve a MS battery, I don't think you did too much wrong.
IF you are to run your pack to empty, then I would suggest you get a bigger pack that will handle your runtime with some reserve in the pack so that the pack will not degrade as fast and prevent those build up particle inside the pack which happens during a heavy discharge cycle. However from reading your earlier post, it seem that you only ran your pack dead several times and not everytime. This lead me to believe the short life span of your pack is more an issue of a bad pack from MS rather than something you did wrong.
IF you are to run your pack to empty, then I would suggest you get a bigger pack that will handle your runtime with some reserve in the pack so that the pack will not degrade as fast and prevent those build up particle inside the pack which happens during a heavy discharge cycle. However from reading your earlier post, it seem that you only ran your pack dead several times and not everytime. This lead me to believe the short life span of your pack is more an issue of a bad pack from MS rather than something you did wrong.
11-20-10, 10:37 AM
#33
Senior Member
hopperja, keep in mind that this was a MS battery pack that dimish it's capacity. If it was any other non defective pack, then I would say, yeah you may have done something wrong wiith your maintenance care of your pack. Since this involve a MS battery, I don't think you did too much wrong.
IF you are to run your pack to empty, then I would suggest you get a bigger pack that will handle your runtime with some reserve in the pack so that the pack will not degrade as fast and prevent those build up particle inside the pack which happens during a heavy discharge cycle. However from reading your earlier post, it seem that you only ran your pack dead several times and not everytime. This lead me to believe the short life span of your pack is more an issue of a bad pack from MS rather than something you did wrong.
IF you are to run your pack to empty, then I would suggest you get a bigger pack that will handle your runtime with some reserve in the pack so that the pack will not degrade as fast and prevent those build up particle inside the pack which happens during a heavy discharge cycle. However from reading your earlier post, it seem that you only ran your pack dead several times and not everytime. This lead me to believe the short life span of your pack is more an issue of a bad pack from MS rather than something you did wrong.
I never expected DiNotte quality with the MS. However, I have to admit I did expect it to last more than c. 50 re-charges. I guess I'll have to start charging it mid-week.
11-20-10, 10:54 AM
#34
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The damage comes from the fact that if the cells aren't balanced and charged evenly, then one cell will drain to below the minimum voltage while other cells keep the overall voltage high enough that the protective circuitry doesn't shut it off.
So that cell gets damaged, has even less capacity, then the other cells are working harder and discharging at a higher rate, damaging them, as well, and shortening their life.
Add the fact that the chargers are definitely hit or miss on quality (And have fake safety certifications) and you have issues like the chargers starting fires, melting (both documented occurrences), or the possibility of overcharging.
As soon as I have the extra cash I'm going to order single cells and a pack to hold them, as well as a good cell charger. That way I can tell that the individual cells are being charged properly, and only have to replace specific cells that are damaged and/or bad.
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11-20-10, 10:57 AM
#35
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Overall I've been VERY happy with my MagicShine headlight.
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11-20-10, 11:10 AM
#36
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To be clear, it only started hitting red in the last few rides. I noticed it as the days are getting shorter and I've needed light getting home too. I would guestimate it's hit red less than 5 times.
I never expected DiNotte quality with the MS. However, I have to admit I did expect it to last more than c. 50 re-charges. I guess I'll have to start charging it mid-week.
I never expected DiNotte quality with the MS. However, I have to admit I did expect it to last more than c. 50 re-charges. I guess I'll have to start charging it mid-week.
11-20-10, 11:18 AM
#37
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It's impossible to run the batteries down till there's no charge. The circuitry attached to the batteries prevents that. (It DOES have a low voltage shut off switch!)
The damage comes from the fact that if the cells aren't balanced and charged evenly, then one cell will drain to below the minimum voltage while other cells keep the overall voltage high enough that the protective circuitry doesn't shut it off.
So that cell gets damaged, has even less capacity, then the other cells are working harder and discharging at a higher rate, damaging them, as well, and shortening their life.
Add the fact that the chargers are definitely hit or miss on quality (And have fake safety certifications) and you have issues like the chargers starting fires, melting (both documented occurrences), or the possibility of overcharging.
As soon as I have the extra cash I'm going to order single cells and a pack to hold them, as well as a good cell charger. That way I can tell that the individual cells are being charged properly, and only have to replace specific cells that are damaged and/or bad.
The damage comes from the fact that if the cells aren't balanced and charged evenly, then one cell will drain to below the minimum voltage while other cells keep the overall voltage high enough that the protective circuitry doesn't shut it off.
So that cell gets damaged, has even less capacity, then the other cells are working harder and discharging at a higher rate, damaging them, as well, and shortening their life.
Add the fact that the chargers are definitely hit or miss on quality (And have fake safety certifications) and you have issues like the chargers starting fires, melting (both documented occurrences), or the possibility of overcharging.
As soon as I have the extra cash I'm going to order single cells and a pack to hold them, as well as a good cell charger. That way I can tell that the individual cells are being charged properly, and only have to replace specific cells that are damaged and/or bad.
I was thinking of using 2S2P holder using 3000 mah battery. if I needed extra runtime, I can use 2 packs and run a Y adapter from the packs. This will give me 1.2 AH of capacity and less issue with balance.
The MS lighthead is a good enough unit to be worthwhile of the effort.
11-20-10, 12:03 PM
#38
Senior Member
Going forward (I have no electronics background) I perceive two viable options for me:
1- hopefully Geoman will replace the battery, as I bought the MS in Dec 2009, which would be inside the recall window. If Geoman replaces it with an equally cheap but "safe" battery, then use that for a year and ...
2- get a DiNotte battery ($70) and a DiNotte charger ($30)
1- hopefully Geoman will replace the battery, as I bought the MS in Dec 2009, which would be inside the recall window. If Geoman replaces it with an equally cheap but "safe" battery, then use that for a year and ...
2- get a DiNotte battery ($70) and a DiNotte charger ($30)
11-20-10, 12:40 PM
#39
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As soon as I have the extra cash I'm going to order single cells and a pack to hold them, as well as a good cell charger. That way I can tell that the individual cells are being charged properly, and only have to replace specific cells that are damaged and/or bad.
The DISadvantage is that to get at the cells individually, the battery ends up not being waterproof - you have to come up with an enclosure, if that is a concern.
If you go this route, only change out cells individually if one is clearly damaged. It is generally a good idea to treat them as pairs and when replacing them due to age/loss of capacity, replace both. Pairing a fresh with an aged one can isnt a good idea.
11-20-10, 06:03 PM
#40
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I don't agree with MOBikeCycle on everything he posted. Most of the failures of the Magicshine batteries aren't due to consumer abuse. Leaving the battery on the charger for more than 24 hours doesn't do anything to them because the charger shouldn't let the battery take more charge than it should and the battery has a protection circuit so it's a moot issue. You also can't run the battery down to 'dead' because it has a protection circuit against that too.
Everything else he says is spot on. Heat kills Li-ion batteries. Fast charging shouldn't be done to Li-ion batteries. You really can't draw too much power too fast from Li-ion. They don't like rapid discharge. They are fine for LED but for halogen or higher energy draw lights, Li is not a good choice.
Li-ion batteries are more fragile...both mechanically and electrically...than other chemistries. There's more that can go wrong and more that can be damaged when using them. Ni chemistry batteries should be treated with love and attention but Li-ion batteries should be pampered like Paris Hilton! They are delicate.
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11-20-10, 06:21 PM
#41
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For a waterproof enclosure, try a water bottle.
Inside is the Magicshine battery wrapped in a sock. The sock is so it doesn't rattle. Electrical tape seals it up.
Inside is the Magicshine battery wrapped in a sock. The sock is so it doesn't rattle. Electrical tape seals it up.
11-20-10, 06:36 PM
#42
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WOW... Since I am the one that started the original thread i take offense to what you said. We are all entitled to opinions, but do me a favor and IGNORE posts that are by me and we will both be happier people. You are not adding anything constructive to this so what does that say about you?
Sad too since we live in the same state. Hopefully we dont ride the same roads.
Last edited by MOBikeCycle; 11-20-10 at 07:06 PM.
11-20-10, 06:45 PM
#43
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I don't agree with MOBikeCycle on everything he posted. Most of the failures of the Magicshine batteries aren't due to consumer abuse. Leaving the battery on the charger for more than 24 hours doesn't do anything to them because the charger shouldn't let the battery take more charge than it should and the battery has a protection circuit so it's a moot issue. You also can't run the battery down to 'dead' because it has a protection circuit against that too.
Everything else he says is spot on. Heat kills Li-ion batteries. Fast charging shouldn't be done to Li-ion batteries. You really can't draw too much power too fast from Li-ion. They don't like rapid discharge. They are fine for LED but for halogen or higher energy draw lights, Li is not a good choice.
Li-ion batteries are more fragile...both mechanically and electrically...than other chemistries. There's more that can go wrong and more that can be damaged when using them. Ni chemistry batteries should be treated with love and attention but Li-ion batteries should be pampered like Paris Hilton! They are delicate.
Also, I am no expert on Lithium-Ion technology. I rely on what others say and reading posts online. I was just posting info that was from people who sell those products and relating it back to this forum. Hopefully it helps people in some way. The good thing is that suppliers like Geoman are constantly improving the products we use. I still have a light and battery from over 20 years ago that I used for UltraMarathon events. That thing cost $250+ and I could barely see 30-40 feet in front of me and it weighed a combined 3+ pounds including the battery!
11-20-10, 11:43 PM
#44
Senior Member
If you dont take care of your batteries then they are doomed for failure. These Lithium-Ion batteries need "Delicate" care. It only takes one bad experience to ruin your battery and cause it to do potential damage in the future... example- rupture, fire, etc.
The MAJORITY of failures are because of improper care. I know many people did not receive instructions on how to care for the batteries or some did but just neglected to read them. If you take care of the batteries then they will last MUCH longer!
The main things are
-don't store in HOT places.
- dont leave sitting on a charger more then 24 hours. The best thing is to unplug the battery from the charge as soon as it is finished receiving its full charge.
- do not run the battery dead. When the light indicator on the back of the light turns red then turn it off! (dont wait for it to turn off on its own!)
- dont use chargers that offer "fast charges"
- running 2 headlights using a Y-cable is a bad idea. It will overwork the battery. Running a Headlight with the MS Taillight is ok since the tail light uses very little of the battery.
Here is a link to BATTERY CARE-
https://home.comcast.net/~jharger1/batterycare.pdf
Take these instructions to heart and your batteries will last much longer and also will be SAFER!
The MAJORITY of failures are because of improper care. I know many people did not receive instructions on how to care for the batteries or some did but just neglected to read them. If you take care of the batteries then they will last MUCH longer!
The main things are
-don't store in HOT places.
- dont leave sitting on a charger more then 24 hours. The best thing is to unplug the battery from the charge as soon as it is finished receiving its full charge.
- do not run the battery dead. When the light indicator on the back of the light turns red then turn it off! (dont wait for it to turn off on its own!)
- dont use chargers that offer "fast charges"
- running 2 headlights using a Y-cable is a bad idea. It will overwork the battery. Running a Headlight with the MS Taillight is ok since the tail light uses very little of the battery.
Here is a link to BATTERY CARE-
https://home.comcast.net/~jharger1/batterycare.pdf
Take these instructions to heart and your batteries will last much longer and also will be SAFER!
11-21-10, 10:43 AM
#45
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It's impossible to run the batteries down till there's no charge. The circuitry attached to the batteries prevents that. (It DOES have a low voltage shut off switch!)
The damage comes from the fact that if the cells aren't balanced and charged evenly, then one cell will drain to below the minimum voltage while other cells keep the overall voltage high enough that the protective circuitry doesn't shut it off.
So that cell gets damaged, has even less capacity, then the other cells are working harder and discharging at a higher rate, damaging them, as well, and shortening their life.
Add the fact that the chargers are definitely hit or miss on quality (And have fake safety certifications) and you have issues like the chargers starting fires, melting (both documented occurrences), or the possibility of overcharging.
As soon as I have the extra cash I'm going to order single cells and a pack to hold them, as well as a good cell charger. That way I can tell that the individual cells are being charged properly, and only have to replace specific cells that are damaged and/or bad.
The damage comes from the fact that if the cells aren't balanced and charged evenly, then one cell will drain to below the minimum voltage while other cells keep the overall voltage high enough that the protective circuitry doesn't shut it off.
So that cell gets damaged, has even less capacity, then the other cells are working harder and discharging at a higher rate, damaging them, as well, and shortening their life.
Add the fact that the chargers are definitely hit or miss on quality (And have fake safety certifications) and you have issues like the chargers starting fires, melting (both documented occurrences), or the possibility of overcharging.
As soon as I have the extra cash I'm going to order single cells and a pack to hold them, as well as a good cell charger. That way I can tell that the individual cells are being charged properly, and only have to replace specific cells that are damaged and/or bad.
11-21-10, 10:47 AM
#46
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You aren't being all that helpful. Say what is BS and what isn't. Otherwise, you are just making noise.
I don't agree with MOBikeCycle on everything he posted. Most of the failures of the Magicshine batteries aren't due to consumer abuse. Leaving the battery on the charger for more than 24 hours doesn't do anything to them because the charger shouldn't let the battery take more charge than it should and the battery has a protection circuit so it's a moot issue. You also can't run the battery down to 'dead' because it has a protection circuit against that too.
...
I don't agree with MOBikeCycle on everything he posted. Most of the failures of the Magicshine batteries aren't due to consumer abuse. Leaving the battery on the charger for more than 24 hours doesn't do anything to them because the charger shouldn't let the battery take more charge than it should and the battery has a protection circuit so it's a moot issue. You also can't run the battery down to 'dead' because it has a protection circuit against that too.
...
11-21-10, 11:23 AM
#47
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Well according to bmcglaughin, in another post, the way the battery pack protection circuit is wired it is possible to progressively damage the individual cells since the load-balancing(draw too quickly or over-draw from one cell) towards the the end of the charge gets progressively worse and isn't fixed by charging up the pack as a whole either.
I didn't say that the protection circuit does anything to keep the individual cells from being damaged. I said, and so did bmcglaughin, that you can't run the battery down to 'dead'. 'Dead' means zero cell voltage. The protection circuit should stop battery discharge at around 3V per cell. Anything lower risks damage that could result in overheating of the battery during charging.
Load balancing and cell matching are entirely different.
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Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
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Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
11-21-10, 11:54 AM
#48
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Ummm...Huh?
I didn't say that the protection circuit does anything to keep the individual cells from being damaged. I said, and so did bmcglaughin, that you can't run the battery down to 'dead'. 'Dead' means zero cell voltage. The protection circuit should stop battery discharge at around 3V per cell. Anything lower risks damage that could result in overheating of the battery during charging.
Load balancing and cell matching are entirely different.
I didn't say that the protection circuit does anything to keep the individual cells from being damaged. I said, and so did bmcglaughin, that you can't run the battery down to 'dead'. 'Dead' means zero cell voltage. The protection circuit should stop battery discharge at around 3V per cell. Anything lower risks damage that could result in overheating of the battery during charging.
Load balancing and cell matching are entirely different.
From what i've read it is possible to run the light down to an individual cell as there is no load-balancing. It may also be possible to drain the other batteries further than designed depending on the quality of their voltage sensor. Damage will occur, so i gather, at these two points but from different causes.
It is also possible to chronically under-charge a cell it seems. Perhaps this is why many people's run-times suffer and this is why bmcgualhin seems to be set on purchasing a charger for each separate cell.
11-21-10, 01:35 PM
#49
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I look at it this way: Even with the extra cash I'm going to spend for new batteries and charger, I'm still money ahead compared to anything comparable from DiNotte, and if I get a good replacement battery pack from GeoManGear as part of this recall I'll be even FURTHER ahead!
Overall I've been VERY happy with my MagicShine headlight.
Overall I've been VERY happy with my MagicShine headlight.
11-22-10, 07:59 AM
#50
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I took your claim of running the battery down to 'dead' to mean running it down to at least the protection circuit limit and damaging it. "dead" to me doesn't mean dead. A dead battery is one with no charge, a "dead" battery is one which has tripped a protection circuit. This makes more sense, i am not sure why you wrote dead in quotes.
From what i've read it is possible to run the light down to an individual cell as there is no load-balancing. It may also be possible to drain the other batteries further than designed depending on the quality of their voltage sensor. Damage will occur, so i gather, at these two points but from different causes.
It is also possible to chronically under-charge a cell it seems. Perhaps this is why many people's run-times suffer and this is why bmcgualhin seems to be set on purchasing a charger for each separate cell.
From what i've read it is possible to run the light down to an individual cell as there is no load-balancing. It may also be possible to drain the other batteries further than designed depending on the quality of their voltage sensor. Damage will occur, so i gather, at these two points but from different causes.
It is also possible to chronically under-charge a cell it seems. Perhaps this is why many people's run-times suffer and this is why bmcgualhin seems to be set on purchasing a charger for each separate cell.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!