Busch &Muller Toplight Line Brake Plus
#1
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Busch &Muller Toplight Line Brake Plus
I was wondering if anybody had experience with this light. The brake light feature is intriguing, if it works.
Marc
Marc
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I looked at it but couldn't get hold of it when I was getting my lights so settled for the Toplight Flat S Plus.
The thing I like about this is that it works on voltage drop as opposed to a physical switch or an accelerometer.
The thing I like about this is that it works on voltage drop as opposed to a physical switch or an accelerometer.
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Marc
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well, if it is anything like the other toplights then the normal, "tail light" mode will be excellent. If the brake light is significantly brighter then its defo a winner.
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Well, I guess I'll be the first to find out. I'll be getting one from Peter White this week.
I decided to tak the chance.
Marc
I decided to tak the chance.
Marc
#7
You gonna eat that?
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Tilt switch to bypass voltage dropping resistor
Irwin, if when you have yours, can you look inside of it and maybe take a photo for us?
I could easily be wrong - but I don't think that there is any reason to do anything more complicated than simply have a tilt switch- of course, maybe I am wrong.
Marketing is very important in user perception of value.
Here is an example of a tilt switch:
If it uses the force of deacceleration OR the slowing of pulses from a dynamo, in both cases its a brilliant idea if that indeed buys something important, a reduction in accidents.
The differences between the two in real life might be subtle..
For example, if someone was riding down a hill in a vacumn, on frictionless wheels, and was accelerating at the natural rate, there would be no tilt, but otherwise, the rear light would brighten when you went down the hill, even though in fact, you were not braking.
If it doesn't increase the parts count significantly, and it has the desired effect of signalling when the bike is deaccelerating. hopefully waking up drivers behind them in traffic from their naps or texting sessions, its a good thing™ .
All in all a significant innovation, and a way to make a lot more money, and differentiate a product.. for next to nothing.. or not...
If people want to build something using a tilt switch of their own, you can get tilt switches at DigiKey for around a dollar eleven US in quantities of one.
I'm tempted to give at least that a shot.
Alternatively, a microswitch with a weight attached to it might work (or the microswitch could be the weight itself..if it was attached by its lever..)
I could easily be wrong - but I don't think that there is any reason to do anything more complicated than simply have a tilt switch- of course, maybe I am wrong.
Marketing is very important in user perception of value.
Here is an example of a tilt switch:
If it uses the force of deacceleration OR the slowing of pulses from a dynamo, in both cases its a brilliant idea if that indeed buys something important, a reduction in accidents.
The differences between the two in real life might be subtle..
For example, if someone was riding down a hill in a vacumn, on frictionless wheels, and was accelerating at the natural rate, there would be no tilt, but otherwise, the rear light would brighten when you went down the hill, even though in fact, you were not braking.
If it doesn't increase the parts count significantly, and it has the desired effect of signalling when the bike is deaccelerating. hopefully waking up drivers behind them in traffic from their naps or texting sessions, its a good thing™ .
All in all a significant innovation, and a way to make a lot more money, and differentiate a product.. for next to nothing.. or not...
If people want to build something using a tilt switch of their own, you can get tilt switches at DigiKey for around a dollar eleven US in quantities of one.
I'm tempted to give at least that a shot.
Alternatively, a microswitch with a weight attached to it might work (or the microswitch could be the weight itself..if it was attached by its lever..)
Last edited by christ0ph; 01-10-12 at 09:49 PM.
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Sorry if I am being thick, but I don't understand why you brought tilt switches into the conversation.
If you are talking about modding a current rear light, that might explain it, but I don't see how a tilt switch would work. Although having said that, there ARE accelerometer based brake lights out there - check out this thread that I started 2 years ago.
I have thought about making a brake light mod to a dynamo before, but always stumbled at the same hurdle - how to actuate it. In the end, I decided the simplest and easiest method would be either micro-switches to bypass a limiting resistor or potentiometers to vary the brightness even more depending on how harsh the braking was. The problem I found was that the switches would have to be on both brakes to be effective, and single lever dual action brakes are rare. So I gave up.
If you are talking about modding a current rear light, that might explain it, but I don't see how a tilt switch would work. Although having said that, there ARE accelerometer based brake lights out there - check out this thread that I started 2 years ago.
I have thought about making a brake light mod to a dynamo before, but always stumbled at the same hurdle - how to actuate it. In the end, I decided the simplest and easiest method would be either micro-switches to bypass a limiting resistor or potentiometers to vary the brightness even more depending on how harsh the braking was. The problem I found was that the switches would have to be on both brakes to be effective, and single lever dual action brakes are rare. So I gave up.
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Because the effect of deacceleration is identical to that of gravity functionally, 99% of the time. Hold a plumb line in one hand while braking, it goes forward. When you finally finish stopping, its vertical again.
but I don't see how a tilt switch would work. Although having said that, there ARE accelerometer based brake lights out there - check out this thread that I started 2 years ago.
I have thought about making a brake light mod to a dynamo before, but always stumbled at the same hurdle - how to actuate it.
I have thought about making a brake light mod to a dynamo before, but always stumbled at the same hurdle - how to actuate it.
In the end, I decided the simplest and easiest method would be either micro-switches to bypass a limiting resistor or potentiometers to vary the brightness even more depending on how harsh the braking was. The problem I found was that the switches would have to be on both brakes to be effective, and single lever dual action brakes are rare. So I gave up.
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... What would work the best and last forever are the kind of optical sensors you see used in haptics, which can be simulated with two identical LEDs inserted into either end of a piece of transparent acrylic tubing that just admits them size wise (LEDs can both transmit and receive) The tubing transmits much of the light when straignt, less as its bent, proportionately. Wrap the whole thing in black heat shrink and you have a proportionate signal that varies with the degree of bending. Something a bit like this. You can find interface details on LEDs used in receive applications on the net. You might need a microcontroller to give you the output signal you want, but in terms of durability, thats the way to go.
#13
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Irwin, if when you have yours, can you look inside of it and maybe take a photo for us?
I could easily be wrong - but I don't think that there is any reason to do anything more complicated than simply have a tilt switch- of course, maybe I am wrong.
Marketing is very important in user perception of value.
Here is an example of a tilt switch:
If it uses the force of deacceleration OR the slowing of pulses from a dynamo, in both cases its a brilliant idea if that indeed buys something important, a reduction in accidents.
The differences between the two in real life might be subtle..
For example, if someone was riding down a hill in a vacumn, on frictionless wheels, and was accelerating at the natural rate, there would be no tilt, but otherwise, the rear light would brighten when you went down the hill, even though in fact, you were not braking.
If it doesn't increase the parts count significantly, and it has the desired effect of signalling when the bike is deaccelerating. hopefully waking up drivers behind them in traffic from their naps or texting sessions, its a good thing™ .
All in all a significant innovation, and a way to make a lot more money, and differentiate a product.. for next to nothing.. or not...
If people want to build something using a tilt switch of their own, you can get tilt switches at DigiKey for around a dollar eleven US in quantities of one.
I'm tempted to give at least that a shot.
Alternatively, a microswitch with a weight attached to it might work (or the microswitch could be the weight itself..if it was attached by its lever..)
I could easily be wrong - but I don't think that there is any reason to do anything more complicated than simply have a tilt switch- of course, maybe I am wrong.
Marketing is very important in user perception of value.
Here is an example of a tilt switch:
If it uses the force of deacceleration OR the slowing of pulses from a dynamo, in both cases its a brilliant idea if that indeed buys something important, a reduction in accidents.
The differences between the two in real life might be subtle..
For example, if someone was riding down a hill in a vacumn, on frictionless wheels, and was accelerating at the natural rate, there would be no tilt, but otherwise, the rear light would brighten when you went down the hill, even though in fact, you were not braking.
If it doesn't increase the parts count significantly, and it has the desired effect of signalling when the bike is deaccelerating. hopefully waking up drivers behind them in traffic from their naps or texting sessions, its a good thing™ .
All in all a significant innovation, and a way to make a lot more money, and differentiate a product.. for next to nothing.. or not...
If people want to build something using a tilt switch of their own, you can get tilt switches at DigiKey for around a dollar eleven US in quantities of one.
I'm tempted to give at least that a shot.
Alternatively, a microswitch with a weight attached to it might work (or the microswitch could be the weight itself..if it was attached by its lever..)
Marc
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The reason why I suggested it might be a tilt switch is that inertial force, proportionate to the speed decrease. It seems to be the most convenient force to sense for a great many reasons.
It makes the most sense economically to do that. But its also so simple and so cheap that anyone can do it. Which in the manufacturing world means its not profitable or patentable. (someone else probably already patented it a century ago! Prior art!)
Another thought, not all "dynamo powered" tail lights are fed directly from a dynamo.
In fact, some headlights that Peter White Cycles sells have a nifty feature, a DC output that comes out of the headlight that supplies preconditioned, preregulated DC that also has a standlight function to the taillight.
So, no AC cycle to measure! Does the "brake light" on the B&M taillight work with the inolight?
If it really senses cycles, it should not be able to tell when the bike is stopping if fed DC.
Also, bottle dynamos and hub dynamos put out very different AC, I'd guess, because the RPMs of the hub dynamo are much lower than the tiny bottles which have to spin at least 50 times, probably more, to each one of the hub, adding up, in all probability, to "a higher Hz".
It makes the most sense economically to do that. But its also so simple and so cheap that anyone can do it. Which in the manufacturing world means its not profitable or patentable. (someone else probably already patented it a century ago! Prior art!)
Another thought, not all "dynamo powered" tail lights are fed directly from a dynamo.
In fact, some headlights that Peter White Cycles sells have a nifty feature, a DC output that comes out of the headlight that supplies preconditioned, preregulated DC that also has a standlight function to the taillight.
So, no AC cycle to measure! Does the "brake light" on the B&M taillight work with the inolight?
If it really senses cycles, it should not be able to tell when the bike is stopping if fed DC.
Also, bottle dynamos and hub dynamos put out very different AC, I'd guess, because the RPMs of the hub dynamo are much lower than the tiny bottles which have to spin at least 50 times, probably more, to each one of the hub, adding up, in all probability, to "a higher Hz".
Last edited by christ0ph; 01-13-12 at 09:13 PM.
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Last year showed Busch & Müller Licht24 , the daytime running lights for bicycles. 2011 follows to fit the ideal security complement for taillights: BrakeTec, the "brake light" on the bike.
At the core of the new technology is BrakeTec into the rear light integrated processor that evaluates the signals from the hub dynamo. Once the speed drops suddenly and significantly, the rear light shines much brighter.
At the core of the new technology is BrakeTec into the rear light integrated processor that evaluates the signals from the hub dynamo. Once the speed drops suddenly and significantly, the rear light shines much brighter.
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True, but if the processor is evaluating the speed signal, it shouldn't matter if it is hub or bottle, as the frequency will still drop when you slow down, even if a bottle has a higher frequency to start with.
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I like the idea of this tail light. Maybe someone who gets one can get a video showing how it looks both with and without braking? I.e. to see how different the amount of light is?
Last edited by kgidley; 01-16-12 at 01:05 AM.
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Yes, but that is a lot of trouble and expense to go to just for a marketing reason.
My own "processor" is telling me that its their choice- sell tens or even hundreds of thousands for cheaper, and at the same time let people see that its something they can retrofit into their existing lights for a few bucks, DIY,
OR far fewer,
perhaps only hundreds or thousands for more - at a much higher margin, with a sort of deceptive approach, add a few bucks to the cost while not killing sales of their other existing products.
Or, maybe, they simply have decided to call the inertial switch (sounds better than tilt switch, doesn't it?) a "processor".
Evidently cars and trucks wheel revolution frequency processors (WRPs or WSS's) are inertial switches, used on their fuel pumps.. to prevent explosions.. (The ones used in antilock braking systems are there for a different reason, to sense when the wheel does NOT stay in sync with the ground vector.)
After all, computer processors are just aggregates of thousands or millions of switches!
Similar situations exist in medicine, with literally hundreds of cheap and effective cures or treatments for serious illnesses languishing in obscurity, ignored, or even thrown away by companies, for similar reasons. Too cheap and too effective.
My own "processor" is telling me that its their choice- sell tens or even hundreds of thousands for cheaper, and at the same time let people see that its something they can retrofit into their existing lights for a few bucks, DIY,
OR far fewer,
perhaps only hundreds or thousands for more - at a much higher margin, with a sort of deceptive approach, add a few bucks to the cost while not killing sales of their other existing products.
Or, maybe, they simply have decided to call the inertial switch (sounds better than tilt switch, doesn't it?) a "processor".
Evidently cars and trucks wheel revolution frequency processors (WRPs or WSS's) are inertial switches, used on their fuel pumps.. to prevent explosions.. (The ones used in antilock braking systems are there for a different reason, to sense when the wheel does NOT stay in sync with the ground vector.)
After all, computer processors are just aggregates of thousands or millions of switches!
Similar situations exist in medicine, with literally hundreds of cheap and effective cures or treatments for serious illnesses languishing in obscurity, ignored, or even thrown away by companies, for similar reasons. Too cheap and too effective.
Last edited by christ0ph; 01-15-12 at 11:22 AM.
#19
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Yes, but that is a lot of trouble and expense to go to just for a marketing reason.
My own "processor" is telling me that its their choice- sell tens or even hundreds of thousands for cheaper, and at the same time let people see that its something they can retrofit into their existing lights for a few bucks, DIY,
OR far fewer,
perhaps only hundreds or thousands for more - at a much higher margin, with a sort of deceptive approach, add a few bucks to the cost while not killing sales of their other existing products.
My own "processor" is telling me that its their choice- sell tens or even hundreds of thousands for cheaper, and at the same time let people see that its something they can retrofit into their existing lights for a few bucks, DIY,
OR far fewer,
perhaps only hundreds or thousands for more - at a much higher margin, with a sort of deceptive approach, add a few bucks to the cost while not killing sales of their other existing products.
There's a simple test to see what the thing really does: Pick up the generator wheel, spin it, and see what happens you put on the brakes.
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My own "processor" is telling me that its their choice- sell tens or even hundreds of thousands for cheaper, and at the same time let people see that its something they can retrofit into their existing lights for a few bucks, DIY,
OR far fewer,
perhaps only hundreds or thousands for more - at a much higher margin, with a sort of deceptive approach, add a few bucks to the cost while not killing sales of their other existing products.
OR far fewer,
perhaps only hundreds or thousands for more - at a much higher margin, with a sort of deceptive approach, add a few bucks to the cost while not killing sales of their other existing products.
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Actually, I realized that dscheidt is right on the cost. So, why not do it. Electronics is cheap. People I know increasingly self-manufacture all sorts of super complex high tech devices using household appliances like irons,convection ovens and fishtanks (in a quite technically sophisticated manner)
Look, the electronics you need to do it the way B&M says they do it cost maybe three bucks. Quantity one, retail price. Buy a bunch, they're cheaper. There's no reason for them to lie about it, and use a markedly inferior method that wouldn't be any cheaper. I've seen strange conspiracy theories before, but this one is pretty high on the list.
There's a simple test to see what the thing really does: Pick up the generator wheel, spin it, and see what happens you put on the brakes.
There's a simple test to see what the thing really does: Pick up the generator wheel, spin it, and see what happens you put on the brakes.
#24
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Well, I finally got back to installing the light we have been kicking around awhile. I was out of town on some urgent family business, but it was waiting for me when I got back. I figured if it worked for me it would work for anybody, I use a Spanniga tire driven dyno. Wrong brand, ancient tech, no latest greatest nothin'. The damn thing works, very nicely as a matter fact.I posted a review on my blog and I am really glad I bought it. $20 bucks, hell yeah!
Marc
Marc
#25
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Marc