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Old 07-24-13, 10:12 PM   #26
01 CAt Man Do
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The International Association of Chiefs of Police recognizes that fully 25% of all state and provincial trooper deaths are due to being struck by a car while outside of their vehicle (usually on routine stops):

Officers being hit and killed while on the side of the roadperforming their duties is a problem. According to LEOKA data, an average of oneofficer a month was struck and killed for the 17year period between 1993 and 2009.Fortynine states now have move over laws that attempt to address this issue byrequiring motorists to change lanes or slow down when approaching an emergencyvehicle.13

Sure, they see 'em, but that doesn't mean they're not going to hit 'em.
Yes, but the policeman themselves don't wear the lights, the lights are on their cars. This only proves that once they get out they can be hit. We already know that not being seen or standing on the side of a road can get you hit. In the case of policeman and road workers that have been killed while doing their job on the side of the road..; It happens. Usually when police or road workers are hit there are mitigating circumstances that show that "not being seen" was usually not the root cause of the accident. ( drunk driver, driver falling asleep at the wheel, chain reaction accident..etc ) Of course there is still going to be the idiot that hits a cop because they are poor drivers or have eye sight so bad that they should not be driving period. I guess what it boils down to is, " You don't want to be standing on the side of the road even if there are bright lights near by". Not to mention that police when they make traffic stops usually don't have a choice on where to stop. They have to stop where the people being pulled over have stopped. Sometimes that is in the middle of a road because there is no shoulder or because of a breakdown or accident. There are lots of very bad places to be standing when you have high speed traffic around you.. I see this all the time. Also police have to get out onto Interstates. This is something that cyclist don't do. This just proves that police have a dangerous job.

The police and road workers do their job while standing on the side of busy roads. Moving targets are harder to hit. Never is there a guarantee of "not getting hit" but likely better to be moving with traffic as it helps to reduce approach speed of on-coming traffic. This is why I always tell people to never ride on the wrong side of the road. Doing so reduces driver reaction time ( which is never a good thing ).

What is NOT BEING SAID here is; How many people get killed ( or injured ) because they had no "see me" lighting? There is no way to answer that because there is no way to gather the stats if the question is not asked at every accident ( and then posted publicly ). There are always going to be accidents. If you can remove ( or lessen ) one of the probable causes; ( Not being seen, being poorly seen or seen too late ) you are one step ahead of the game.

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Old 07-24-13, 10:43 PM   #27
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The International Association of Chiefs of Police recognizes that fully 25% of all state and provincial trooper deaths are due to being struck by a car while outside of their vehicle (usually on routine stops):

Officers being hit and killed while on the side of the roadperforming their duties is a problem. According to LEOKA data, an average of oneofficer a month was struck and killed for the 17year period between 1993 and 2009.Fortynine states now have move over laws that attempt to address this issue byrequiring motorists to change lanes or slow down when approaching an emergencyvehicle.13





Sure, they see 'em, but that doesn't mean they're not going to hit 'em.
Yep, that's for sure.

It seems as though there's a similar thread in A&S at the moment, I might start one up anyway that's more specific. I do have a question for you chaadster: if bright lights/flashing lights wont get people's attention, what will? What do you do specifically to make yourself known on the road?

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the most common cause of accidents is distracted drivers, those not paying attention. An attention-getting light array only works to the extent that attention is given.
This seems to be your thesis somewhat; how do we make drivers give more attention? What would you suggest to solve the problem instead of brighter lights? Many suggest reflective clothing and such, but anyway I'm just wondering.
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Old 07-25-13, 01:37 AM   #28
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Just a quick story from the ride I took yesterday:

I took a nice little 22 mile ride on the backroads of my state. While doing this ride I did not see much motorized traffic. I didn't get to the ride start until late. My fault for sleeping late. Started the ride at 8:30pm. A half hour later it was dark enough to turn on my main lights. Half way into the ride I decided not to do the planned route because it would of been more hilly and well....since it was dark I wouldn't be able to see the great scenery. This meant getting onto a main road. Still, it was a quiet night and not much traffic back in "Sticksville" if you catch my drift.

The road I was on was a very nice road. Mostly flat and with nice wide shoulders. I had a full moon looking at me head on and it was a beautiful night. It was about five miles to the next town where I had a planned rest stop at a 7-11. For the most part I had all my lights going; Gloworm X2 on the front bars, mini 70 lumen flasher on the front fork....Rimfire wheel lights on the wheels...Cygolite Hotshot on back of the helmet, Xeccon Geinea "1" rear lamp on the seat post....two cheap D/X frog type lights on my chainstays. I think it safe to say I was hard to miss. Funny but I think only about five or six cars passed me on that whole stretch of road. After a while I turned the main rear lamp off. With no traffic why waste the battery? When a car approached I would turn it back on ( it has a remote switch ).

When I was almost to the next town I got passed by a guy in a jeep that yelled out the window, "WE CAN SEE YOU REAL GOOD!". ( made me laugh ). With about a mile to go I got passed by a white pick-up with an exhaust pipe coming up through the bed of the truck and going straight up. I made note of it because of the smoke it gave off. When I got to the 7-11 Mr. White pick-up was there.

As I'm locking my bike the driver yells over to me about how well he could see me. "Man!", he said. "I could see you REAL GOOD". I smiled and replied, "Yes, that pretty much is my intention". Then he says, "I thought you was the police on the side of the road it was so bright. I smiled again. Then he says, " I guess if you're gonna ride a bike at night around these parts that's the way to do it". The End... Anyway, I thought the story worth sharing.
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Old 07-25-13, 07:13 AM   #29
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I agree that lights, lights and more lights is not a guarantee, but a guy has to do what he can for his own safety. It's one part of the equation, along with how, when and where you ride (and of course things out of your control, like what sort of drivers you encounter).

Things are going to happen regardless. My brother is a firefighter and a few years back they had to send a fire truck to the factory for refurb, because some guy had slammed into the back of it at full highway speed (that guy had a Bad Day, but only for a few milliseconds). The truck had all lights running and there were several other emergency vehicles on the road with lights on, and there were police and firefighters in full gear walking around the scene, AND there was a car with a column of black smoke coming out of it on the side of the road. And still the guy just "didn't see it."

Then there's this guy:
http://youtu.be/xQfK3HFaXFw

Yes, you can't stop everything, but you do what you can within reason.
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Old 07-25-13, 09:09 AM   #30
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It'sJustMe,

Right. I agree. So the question is, what is reasonable? I'm of the opinion that running around with ever brighter, flashing, ER vehicle type lighting is just not reasonable, primarily because it makes the world feel crazy, but there are obviously legitimate questions about whether lighting of that intensity may actually increase certain risks.

I suppose another way of phrasing it is, how much is enough, and are there empirical resources we can use to make that determination?
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Old 07-25-13, 09:57 AM   #31
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Found this thread because I'm considering adapting a NiteRider 650 by putting a red gel on it, and mounting it rearward on my bicycle. In daylight scenarios, in Los Angeles, the 650 works beautifully in blink mode. It can be seen for miles. However, despite the earlier poster's GoPro videos, people generally don't do the passing lane thing in major metros, meaning I'm more likely to be impacted from the side or rear.

I don't want it to flash white, rearward, because like someone said, it will make everyone think someone is on the wrong side of the road. And the last thing I need is someone developing a subconscious vendetta against cyclists for that reason.
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Old 07-25-13, 01:49 PM   #32
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It'sJustMe,

Right. I agree. So the question is, what is reasonable? I'm of the opinion that running around with ever brighter, flashing, ER vehicle type lighting is just not reasonable, primarily because it makes the world feel crazy, but there are obviously legitimate questions about whether lighting of that intensity may actually increase certain risks.

I suppose another way of phrasing it is, how much is enough, and are there empirical resources we can use to make that determination?
My take on what is reasonable; It is reasonable to assume that riding a bike on the road is dangerous. Precautions should be taken. That includes bright colorful clothing, a helmet, lighting front and rear as well as use of reflectors and such. It also includes safe riding habits. Knowledge and common sense can go a long way to helping one protect their own skin.

Now about this , "it makes the world feel crazy" thing. Actually, no...it doesn't. Now it might make the world feel crazy for YOU. To everyone else they may see the lights and make note of them but otherwise they pay little mind to their presence.

Now the question on "how much is enough". That is a good question and hard to answer. Personally I only feel the need for bright rear day time lighting on roads with speed limits over 40 mph or on roads with little to no shoulder ( heavier traffic increases the need ). Like I said before I want something that will grab attention from a quarter mile away although that might not be needed in every situation. I look at it this way, better to have something and not need it than to need something and not have it. Besides most lamps have adjustable outputs so you use what you feel suits the situation.

So, how much light do I need to be seen a quarter mile away during the day? I have no answer to that yet. I'll let you know when I find something that I personally feel meets that criteria. In the mean time I'll continue to use my over-driven amber XP-E torch drop-in ( when needed ) in hopes that it will help keep my skin alive.

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...I don't want it to flash white, rearward, because like someone said, it will make everyone think someone is on the wrong side of the road. And the last thing I need is someone developing a subconscious vendetta against cyclists for that reason.
You shouldn't worry about such things. You can't control what other people think ( especially if they're already Loony tunes.. ) Do what you can to make yourself more visible. Most people that drive the road would be grateful that you would do that because most people REALLY DON'T WANT THE LEGAL HASSLES OF HITTING/KILLING SOMEONE THAT THEY JUST DIDN'T SEE. There's always going to be haters. Usually though they will hate you just for being on the road PERIOD. Been a while since I've encountered a bike hater. Very dangerous folks they are.

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Old 07-26-13, 06:36 AM   #33
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Speaking from experience - I was hit by an automobile on a bright, sunny Autumn day at 4:30pm. The Sun was still 30 or more degrees above the horizon - at the Sun was at the driver's back. Because I could not make eye contact - and because the car appeared to be slowing - I rode ahead at full speed.

At the last possible instant - the oncoming car made a left turn right into me and my direction. (car made left turn from suicide lane into my path)

I went into the car - broke out the passenger window with my elbow - hooked my shoulder inside the passenger compartment and was thrown backward at 20 mph. I sustained over 14 fractures and some serious lacerations.

I know for a fact - that this would not have happened had i been running a daylight blinky - at least maybe the a-hole would have hit his breaks after hitting me........

Please don't learn by your own experience - it simply isn't worth it - run a big bright blinky - always......
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Old 07-26-13, 08:11 AM   #34
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Now about this , "it makes the world feel crazy" thing. Actually, no...it doesn't. Now it might make the world feel crazy for YOU. To everyone else they may see the lights and make note of them but otherwise they pay little mind to their presence.
Well, if this is just about what any individual thinks is most safe for them, why doesn't everyone on the road just use eye-searingly bright, flashing lights? Cars, trucks, buses...everyone?

Again, I appreciate and share your safety concerns, but none of us cycle in a vacuum, we need to share the roads responsibly and have rules and regulations that promote safety and sanity.
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Old 07-26-13, 08:14 AM   #35
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Speaking from experience - I was hit by an automobile on a bright, sunny Autumn day at 4:30pm. The Sun was still 30 or more degrees above the horizon - at the Sun was at the driver's back. Because I could not make eye contact - and because the car appeared to be slowing - I rode ahead at full speed.

At the last possible instant - the oncoming car made a left turn right into me and my direction. (car made left turn from suicide lane into my path)

I went into the car - broke out the passenger window with my elbow - hooked my shoulder inside the passenger compartment and was thrown backward at 20 mph. I sustained over 14 fractures and some serious lacerations.

I know for a fact - that this would not have happened had i been running a daylight blinky - at least maybe the a-hole would have hit his breaks after hitting me........

Please don't learn by your own experience - it simply isn't worth it - run a big bright blinky - always......
No you don't know that for a fact, and that you tink you do really calls the quality of your judgements into question.
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Old 07-26-13, 02:25 PM   #36
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Speaking from experience - I was hit by an automobile on a bright, sunny Autumn day at 4:30pm. The Sun was still 30 or more degrees above the horizon - at the Sun was at the driver's back. Because I could not make eye contact - and because the car appeared to be slowing - I rode ahead at full speed.

At the last possible instant - the oncoming car made a left turn right into me and my direction. (car made left turn from suicide lane into my path)

I went into the car - broke out the passenger window with my elbow - hooked my shoulder inside the passenger compartment and was thrown backward at 20 mph. I sustained over 14 fractures and some serious lacerations.

I know for a fact - that this would not have happened had i been running a daylight blinky - at least maybe the a-hole would have hit his breaks after hitting me........

Please don't learn by your own experience - it simply isn't worth it - run a big bright blinky - always......
chaadster's response to above comment ^

Quote:
No you don't know that for a fact, and that you think you do really calls the quality of your judgements into question.
My response to both:

Chaadster I agree with you but only as far as there is never a guarantee that someone will see you. However I agree with Richard C. that a good front blinkie would of probably made a difference. In my estimation, for a front white blinkie ( slow flash or strobe pattern ) to be useful in full sun light you need something like 200 lumen or brighter. I think there is a very good chance that if RC had a front MagicShine 808E going on strobe ( well before he approached the intersection ) that there is a very good chance that the person driving the car that hit him would have seen him well before he decided to make a sudden turn. Since I wasn't there to evaluate the crash scene I can't say it would of absolutely prevented it.

Just a couple days ago I was doing a nice ride in the sticks. It was after 10:00pm, very dark, paved back road, no street lamps, corn fields and meadows, few if any houses around. I was riding down a nice hill with the potential for big time speed. I looked up and saw a car coming the other way. They were going downhill as well ( the other side). At the bottom of the hill was a road to my right. I had no way to know that though at the time. Then I saw the car activate a turn signal, then I saw the road. At that moment I knew the car would make a left right in front of me IF he didn't see me or just didn't care ( you never know ).

First thing I did was flash my front bar lamp through high beam ( I have remote control switch ). Then instead of gathering speed for the ascent like I wanted to do, I readied on both brake levers and coasted very cautiously. I had no reason to be timid. I have a Gloworm X2 on the bars and a very good USB type blinkie on my front fork. Not to mention both wheels lit up with bright wheel lights. I would of been almost impossible to miss. Still, I was in an area where no one would expect someone to be on a bike at that time of night. Sometimes you trust your gut and use extra caution.

As it turned out the person driving the car did see me, slowed and yielded right of way. Regardless, you don't takes chances with your life. I could of avoided an accident if I had needed to. Bright lights work when people see them but there is never a guarantee against "negative mitigating circumstance" that is beyond your control. This reminds me of an old saying; "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

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Old 07-27-13, 06:46 AM   #37
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There are millions of stories out there, no? Like arse-ends, everyone has one.

Without being rude, I'm really not compelled by your stories that corroborate what you think you know, but am rather more interested in what can be tested, proven, and what the facts are.

Good luck on the road.
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Old 07-27-13, 01:17 PM   #38
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Hey - whatever. - Until something happens to each of us - we really never do think about it. And semantics aside - i am not calling for cyclyst's to use blinky lights irresponsibly- clearly that's your problem.... Grownups know how to operate bicyle equipment without annoying others, obviously this escapes you.

But i agree - being lazy About spelling out every little detail isn't practical in these forums. Again my point is - sooner or later you may encounter a driver who "looks right through you" - simply because they only look for cars. And yes I believe that until there are "thousands of blinkies" everywhere - the silly litle light might save your butt...
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Old 07-27-13, 06:22 PM   #39
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Yep, that's for sure.

It seems as though there's a similar thread in A&S at the moment, I might start one up anyway that's more specific. I do have a question for you chaadster: if bright lights/flashing lights wont get people's attention, what will? What do you do specifically to make yourself known on the road?

This seems to be your thesis somewhat; how do we make drivers give more attention? What would you suggest to solve the problem instead of brighter lights? Many suggest reflective clothing and such, but anyway I'm just wondering.
I quoted this but only because there was never an answer from the person it was directed to. Chaadster, any response to Z R I D E R'S questions?? What steps do you take to to enhance your presence on the road?...or do you do nothing in particular? Nice to shoot down others ideas on precautions but do you have any of your own that you'd like to share.
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Old 07-27-13, 10:48 PM   #40
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Well after a lot of research through the forums I've purchased one of these for $37.00

If it proves to be a good light, I may get a second to serve only as a blinkie light. I really enjoy the stories that everyone shares on here, they serve as great examples of how blinkies can help in certain situations. As chaadster says, without data we'll never be able to truly know how beneficial they are, but I don't want to wait until I have an accident story of my own to realize that a blinkie could have helped. I'll take an ounce of prevention any day.

For the rear, I'm highly considering the Red Zone 8. If not, then at least the Cygolite Hotshot.
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Old 07-27-13, 10:49 PM   #41
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'Enforcement grade' suggests you may be cited by the Real Police for using it.

Impersonating a Law Officer , they hate that..

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Old 07-27-13, 11:04 PM   #42
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'Enforcement grade' suggests you may be cited by the Real Police for using it.

Impersonating a Law Officer , they hate that..
Yeah I'm not trying to commit a felony or anything, just trying to be seen out there. Already purchased a different light anyway (link above).
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