chaadster

Smallfront,

I'm sorry, but I must have done a very poor job of explaining why the Joos Orange is so appealing to me, because the VoltaicSystems stuff is virtually every thing I do not want in a cyclotouring setup!

Yes, it's simple to buy just one Orange unit, but the for same reason you don't have to buy cables, plugs, adapters, batteries, you don't have to connect, arrange, waterproof, worry, or monitor those items when out in the field. The Joos literally just has to be there, and if there's light, it charges the battery. That's the kind of simplicity I'm getting on about. One doesn't have to pull velcro straps, unfold and lay out; pull the Joos Orange out and it goes to work, and I can get down to sipping some wine!

I did see the VoltaicSystems' Spark iPad case charging system, but in addition to it being much larger, more expensive by about $100, and heavier by 1Lb, it also seems to lack the same level of waterproofness available to the Joos, which is of particular concern because the battery connection is via unprotected plug; it gives no indication of heat sinking for the battery, and in fact, probably captures much more heat in the battery because of the padded case.

Yes, you are right about carrying around the battery, which for some applications may be a drawback. I don't see that being a drawback for cyclotouring, and if one wanted that capacity, the Orange could be used to charge an external battery pack. Regarding the heat issue, the Orange has a heat sinked frame for the battery, which I can only assume works given the excellent reviews; I've not used the product. It is easy to consider extreme environments where unrelenting sun and very high heat could cause issues that anyone planning to cycle somewhere like the Sahara may be wise to consider!

Regarding easily placing on a rack, it's not the battery pack that's difficult, but arraying a foldout panel that may be more complicated than placing the Joos, particularly if the panels drape over pannier openings. Sure, there could be a perfect equipment setup for any panel/rack/luggage combo, and it seems to me that a smaller unit would increase the likelihood of finding one of those combos. Again, it gets to the ease-of-use (EoU)/deployment issue for me, and I'd like it to be as quick and non-fussy as possible; multiple tie-down points and straps or clips that need to be carefully placed can work great, but are generally annoying to me, so I'd like to reduce that demand.

Thanks for the link, but they've got nothing really appealing to me for sub-expedition grade cyclotouring excursions for the reasons I've stated above: larger, heavier, more expensive, or more complicated than other options for solar iPad level energy sources. Which is not to say the VoltaicSystems stuff isn't sweet, because it looks like it is. I can easily imagine applications where the versatility offered by VoltaicSystems would be better than the Orange.

Yes, I understand your battery issue, and if shading and cooling the battery is so important because of climate, then probably the Joos is a poor choice, but again, recalling the Joos' built-in heat sink, replaceable internal battery, and ability to charge an external battery, I think the potential for meeting most situational demands is there, while providing a core level of convenience/EoU/simple deployment/durability that is unmatched by anything that's been presented in this thread, particularly when also factoring in size, weight, and cost.

SmallFront

It is not a question of if keeping the battery from overheating is important. It is important.

The heatsink won't do you any good if the battery is placed between the panel and and the pannier. And the very fact they have had to incorporate a heatsink should tell you something very important: They are trying to solve the problem of overheating with the battery placed where it is.

In any case, do a bit of research on overheating of li-ion batteries and why it is important to keep it cool. If you are not willing to do that, go ahead and buy an integrated battery. It may be user-servicable, but it still doesn't leave you much, now does it? You will have to buy the same battery again, and because it will get heat since you will have to place the (black) panel and battery in direct sunlight, you will have to change it earlier, rather than later.

I am not talking about expedition grade setups. Voltaic has non-folding panels as you requested, and they have smaller panels too.

I can't help but once again mention that your fears of having a separate battery pack because it involves a connection seem rather ill-founded. People on motorcycles have GPS's, heated clothing, mp3 players, headsets and whatnot connected to their motorcycle and it works fine for them. You are on a bike. It's like you see a potential problem, and instead of solving that, you choose something entirely different which has other, more important problems. It's like choosing to walk 30 miles in spd shoes because there is a risk the bike will have a flat.

In any case, I'm out.

chaadster

If you don't believe that heat-sinks can actually work, then I can understand how you can dismiss a product that has gotten excellent reviews ever since it was introduced to the market in early 2011, the same year, by the way, it was awarded the Best Innovation in Eco-Design and Sustainable Technology at the annual International CES by tech industry folks, people who know well about lithium batteries, heat and all that which troubles you so.

SolarJoos list an operating temp range of -4 to 140ºF; if you're operating outside those ranges, then yep, you'll have problems. I don't know how hot the Orange battery will get in full, 42ºN latitude sun at ambient temps of 80º and wind speeds of 15mph, do you?

Again, while I understand the temp issue-- solar panels also become less efficient as temps rise-- I honestly believe you're overstating the issue as it relates to most users under most cyclotouring conditions. If you really believe that battery temperature for a devices that has been market-proven for 3 years is more of an issue than having unprotected cable plugs exposed to rain and moisture, I can accept that, and am happy to say we simply have different concerns.

On that note, you mentioned motorcycle heaters, well if you look at the gear that plugs into the bike's electrical harness, those plugs are protected against water egress, and they're not microUSB, either. I hope you can understand the differences between those and what we see with some of the solar units we've discussed.

Anyway, this is all academic for me, since I neither own, used, nor have need of a solar charger at the moment. I just hoped to helped people out by mentioning the Joos Orange, and got drawn into a discussion about why I think it's a great choice for cyclotouring. I've laid out the rationale for my position as fully and completely as I know, so that's that. I'm sure that as the tech develops, someone will produce a product that meets both of our wishes and demands.

SmallFront

Wow, way to misrepresent my position. I am not saying heatsinks can't work. I am saying that they're next to useless if they are placed in between a black solar panel and a pannier which will act as insulation. Further, I'm pointing out that they only put the heatsink there in order to alleviate the inherent problem of overheating the battery - something that a battery situated between a black panel and a pannier is more prone to.

I will also like to point out something I forgot with your last post, that despite me saying numerous times that Voltaic (and others) makes non-folding panels, you insist that having a separate battery necessitates folding panels. It doesn't. How do you think your Joos is made? They took a small, standalone panel and attached a separate battery to it.

I do know that I can easily reach 80 degrees centigrade behind a black surface, and from your specs, it sounds more like you're giving the specs of the solar panel, not the safe margins of the li-ion battery.

Nope, I'm not overstating anything. You're choosing to walk the 30 miles in spd shoes for fear of a flat.


It's called "ingress", and no, not all are extremely well protected, but obviously they need to be slightly more water resistant given that in no wind at all, your bike and connections may easily see what amounts to upwards 100 mp/h winds simply because the motorcycle is faster than a bike.

Neither are the connections between a good solar panel and external battery. The connection to your gear (GPS or whatever) usually sport a micro-usb on the device-side these days.
As for rain getting in, just make sure you have a loop in the wire (regardless of it's from panel to battery or from battery to gps/phone/whatever that is lower than the connections on the battery/panel. This way it will not run into either but drip off.


There is already existent products that meet the wishes and demands for both of us. Hell, you can even get dyno hubs with usb to remove the "problem" of having those "risky" connections between a solar panel and battery.

chaadster

Oh, I'm sorry; "next to useless" is what I should have said, not that they don't work. Got it.

From VoltaicSystems Tech support site: The solar panels are waterproof and so will not be affected. The recycled PET used to construct the bag is also waterproof. However, water will eventually seep in through the zips and seams, so the contents can get wet. The only electrical component likely to be adversely affected is the battery pack, which you should treat as you would any other electronic device and keep it dry.

The Joos Orange will charge its battery while underwater:


If you can show me an example or two of Joos Orange batteries failing from overheat/overtemp or whatever it is you're worried about, I'll admit I'm trekking in cleats to avoid a flat, but until then, I think you're just talking a lot of nothingness.

The Joos Orange won Outdoor Life's Editors' Choice Award in their June '13 solar charger shootout: https://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/hun...t-solar-panels

SmallFront

You still don't get the point as you don't seem to understand the problem of overheating a li-ion. But hey, at least you can roll your eyes.


Yes, and that goes for your Joos Orange too when it is being used and abused with grit and whatnot. I already explained what to do for this. But as I have come to expect from you; that too is eagerly ignored.

Show me their warranty that that is advisable or covered under warranty. You seem to be infatuated with adverts and awards.

It's basic science, and the fact that Joos deemed it necessary to incorporate a heatsink to combat this, bears this out perfectly. I don't need to look up Joos orange users to tell you about the limitations of Li-Ion and how they are easily damaged by heat. Especially not since Joos think the same - otherwise they wouldn't have incorporated a heatsink. I don't need to survey sleeping bag users either to tell you that down is a great insulator, much better than an empty void filled with air.



Again with the award that seems to impress you so much. So freaking what? A GPS which has won an award does not mean it is the greatest ever or that it doesn't have shortcomings.

You have now fallen back on a useless award twice, as well as resorting to a youtube advertisement as arguments, all the while refusing to do even the most basic of research, and without even considering why it is that Joos thought it was necessary to have a heatsink. Hell, you even refuse to acknowledge that insulating a heatsink while having a heatsource bombarding it from the top will result in something almost completely useless in a very short time span.

But, hey, at least it is your money and your choice. If you won't do proper research and are mightily impressed by awards, it is no wonder that everyone and their grandmother is giving awards these days: It lures in people who are not able to do the most basic of research.

Here's an idea: Tape a black piece of cardboard on your phone, put it on a sweater out in the sun, and then take a infrared thermometer to the phone itself after an hour or two in the sun.

chaadster

Oh, I should hasten to add why underwater charging is important.

Let's say you're solar setup is strapped on the rack, with maybe the battery connected via cable in a waterproof pannier. You're caught in a deluge. Water runs to the lowest point, so it traces along the cable to battery pack. Did you put the battery in an external web pocket? Of course not; it's in the the pannier. And you're smart, though, so you put a loop in the cable; but did you anticipate water running off the pannier flap where it touches the cable, and transferring water there which then traces down to the plug? No? Ah, but you did orient the battery on it's side in the bag so the port was facing down. See? You're smart! Uh oh, but did it shift around while you were riding? Did you shift things at the last rest stop when you opened the bag? and not realize it? Or maybe you just threw everything hastily on the bike because you were running late getting out of camp this morning, and figured the forecast was clear weather and didn't worry about it? Maybe you left everything charging up on a tree stump and put the battery pack down in the shade to keep the battery cool, and went for a quick ride into town to grab supplies when the storm hit?

With the Joos, you have none of those concerns.

SmallFront

LOL, I have already explained how this is simple to avoid, and referred you back to it in my post before this. Yet you happily ignore what is an easy solution that doesn't cost anything.
Yes, of course it's in a bag. If nothing else, then because I want to protect it from heat as well as theft. How waterproof are the Joos when actually have something attached to it?

Oh, so you did read it, but just ignored it so you could make the above point. How great to be talking to someone who does that kind of thing.



What the hell? who said the cable had to be taught between the battery and top edge of the pannier? And I'm sorry, I thought that you had panniers that actually covered the "box", not a flat lid on top.
Making up stupid and ignorant scenarios in order for you to make the ill-founded point that a design such as the joos is better is, at best, laughable.

No need to, if you would actually consider reality instead of made-up laughable screnarios.

WTH? I pack as I pack, nothing rattles around, regardless of it being a battery or not. Do you just toss things into a pannier haphazardly and think that is the way to do anything? You must, otherwise you wouldn't make such a stupid argument.
Did your Joos shift around on top of your pannier? It weighs more than the panel itself, And as such it more prone to being lost.
How does the Joos do with charging something while underway? No, I guess that would compromise the integrity, and it would make the cables more prone to break out due to the battery being tied to the top of your pannier and the connections will be more prone to get water spray on them.



Wow, more ignorant scenarios, just because you can't actually be bothered to do even the slightest bit of research. Why would I leave any expensive equipment out in the open while I'm somewhere else? Would you leave the Joos out in the open without you being there? Seriously, that is just asking for things to get nicked.

With a solar panel with an external battery pack (it could also be a Brunton) you don't have those concerns either. Hey, but at least someone can nick both your solar panel and battery in a hurry.

chaadster

I'm open to enlightenment. Show me an example of this problem with the Joos.

No, it does not go for the Joos as well. It does not need to be kept dry.

Joos clearly state the device can be used in light rain and in the wet; look at the website. I guess the facts are too scary for you to do it yourself? Here's a sample:

The electronics in the JOOS Orange are encapsulated, meaning they are completely waterproof. However, if water gets into the micro USB port and is not dried out, oxidation can form over the connecting pins and the JOOS Orange will not work. Make sure to keep the port cover closed tightly when used in a wet environment. If water gets inside the micro USB port, dry it out quickly. A little dab of rubbing alcohol can help speed up the drying process.

Gaack, a heatsink! Show me something that proves-- hell, I'll take suggests, even-- that the Joos heatsink doesn't work. Where is this Joos overheat issue besides in your little head? Anything? Anybody? Beuller?

It means people more important, and probably smarter, than you have not found the device critically flawed as you do. You're the only one freaking about a heatsink. You remind me of the Dave Chappelle President Bush mockery when he asks, "Do I need to tell you what the f**k you can do with an aluminum tube?" Absurd, is what I think your position on the heatsink is; as if people go around putting heat sinks on stuff that doesn't need it. Your logic is pitiable.

"Heatsink!" You're like that dog in the movie Up Up and Away! Haha! It's less funny that you are now obsessed with creating a scenario within which the heatsink is rendered meaningless; it's completely fantastical as far as I can see. The Joos has been in the market for 3 years; how "short order" were you thinking of, here, before these failures take place? Oh, wait, what failures?! Have there been any, or is this just a product of your damaged ego? If you try hard enough, you can probably find someone who placed a Joos on their grill in full sun...I'd accept that as proof of the pointlessness of a heatsink. Heatsink!

The multitude of various awards an accolades are mentioned to trigger some thoughtful reflection on your part, by the way.

I've demonstrated my position with Joos is borne of careful consideration and thought; I've answered each of your questions, assertions, and claims directly and on a point-by-point basis a few times now. I've demonstrated more rigor in acknowledging and understanding your position than you have with mine. For example, rather than acknowledging the risk of energized, unprotected plugs being exposed to wet, you came back with, "I can't help but once again mention that your fears of having a separate battery pack because it involves a connection seem rather ill-founded", which is why I cited VoltaicSystems warning to keep the battery dry.

chaadster

I like how you yap first, read later.

The entire point, genius, is that you can charge the Joos battery without anything being attached to it. Think, man, think!

All I can say to this is that it, none of it, makes any sense. I get that your mad, though, so I forgive you for ranting like a looney.


Yeah, I'd leave the Joos out; were you raging too hard to notice the security hole through which one can secure a strong cable? That 'one' would be me. I've got better things to do than sit around and watch a solar panel sit in the sun. Your life is obviously, um, different.


This is the part that definitively proves you've gone off your rocker and lost your sense; did you not understand the significance of what I was saying in those parts you called "laughable scenarios?" Nothing fired in your mind there, huh? Cables? External battery packs? Solar panels? Nothing rings a bell? Nothing you might have talked about before? Pfft. You're just out-to-lunch, young warrior, and not in the game at all.

SmallFront

I need to actually show you a dead battery to show you that Joos put the heatsink on there to alleviate a problem? No, sorry, there is no need to do that. You just need to do a bit of basic research - something you seem adament to avoid.

Show me how those plug seals work after having been exposed to wind, sun, and rain, and show me how they will still be watertight with someone plugged into it while you are underway.



Yes, I know you are very taken with adverts and take ad print as gospel. Notice how they go to an effort to say how the microUSB port should be closed tightly. That tells me two things: It is not for use while underway, and they actually went for a microusb on the battery itself, rather than a full-sized usb or other connection on the battery end.

1) Why would Joos incorporate a heatsink that adds weight and volume if not to alleviate heat build-up?
2) You still refuse to understand that if you insulate a heatsink it can't get rid of the heat that is dumped to it.
3) These things have been mentioned by my on several occassions and yet you resort to strawmanning my position and outright refuse to do even a cursory google search.

No, it means that they figured a heatsink was necessary, and a company will sell something if they can sell, regardless of there being better designs from an engineering standpoint out there.

I am not freaking out. I am explaining things to you that apparently requires several repeats because you refuse to understand the very basics.

There is only one "logic". I don't have my own particular logic. The point, once again just for you: Is exactly that they would not have put a heatsink in there unless it was to alleviate heat build-up. That is my point. They are fully aware that heat is a problem, and so they had gone to some length to alleviate the problem. That doesn't mean it is the best solution, but if you insist on having it below the solar panel and in-built, that is about the only thing you can do. To get better you will have to have the battery externally.


Ah, yes, placing the Joos with it's in-built battery on top of a pannier is "completely fantastical". No wonder you don't have trouble making up ridiculous scenarios of the "problems" with an external battery.

It depends on how much the batteri itself is used, how many hours of sunlight it is exposed to, and of course ambient temperature,
I don't have a damaged ego. I am not the one relying on meaningless awards and ad print to make my case. Do a google search of "heat damage li-ion".

Yes, I'm not surprised that to you I'm merely repeating a word when I explain things to you and you then completely ignore it or misrepresent what I say - all depending on what makes your argument in that particular sentence.

Awards given by editors have little sway on reality.


No, you have shown yourself to be willing to misrepresent what is said, to be willing to ignore what you don't like, to be more than willing to do even the most basic of research, and to be willing to make up hoax scenarios in an attempt to make your case.

What a delusional statement considering that you misrepresent what I say constantly.

Did you fail to read the quote you, yourself posted? It says to keep the watertight plugs plugged in tightly. So it will still need protection if you were to use that battery in the wet. However, having a plug out in the open is perfectly fine when it is the Joos. At least in your book.

With that, I am done with you. If you care to do some research and read what I have said, as well as stop misrepresenting what I say, before you post next time, perhaps I will indulge you and come back. Otherwise I'm done with you and this thread.

SmallFront

Yes, I'm sorry that I don't expect what you say in one sentence be the exact opposite in the next. I'm not used to dealing with such dishonesty.


The entire point, genius, is that you can charge the Joos battery without anything being attached to it. Think, man, think![/quote]
Yes, I am apparently clever enough to think that any battery is useless unless it is powering something (or being charged for later powering something). I am clever enough to know that I like being able to charge things on the go, even if there is a few showers. Do that with the Joos.

Is that all you can come up with, after being caught with your made-up scenarios?



Yeah, that cable will be great for securing expensive electronics while you go "shopping in town".




Yes, I noticed you made up a whole lot of ridiculous scenarios involving external battery packs and cables. But just because you used the words "battery", "external", and "cables" does not make your scenario any more likely or any less ridiculous.


I said it in my post above (not knowing you had posted in the meantime), and that post of yours prove my point: You're acting dishonestly and ignore anything and everything that doesn't sing the praise of your choice, which, of course, you believe to a "well-informed" one of the kind. Yet you still refuse to even read things, you refuse to even counter with real arguments, but just make stuff up as you go along about me being off my rocker and whatnot. I am calling you tactics dishonest, because misrepresenting what others are saying knowing full-well that you are, and changing you argument from one sentence to the next is dishonest.

But, again, this will be my last post to you in this thread unless you at least try to show some integrity.

chaadster

Serious question: Are you using Google Translate or something like that? I'm struggling to understand how you could have no idea about what has been said.

Road Fan

Voltage and current are not theory, they are physical things that obey physical laws. They are VERY important beyond the level of just spinning hypotheses. Go back to your high school physics, or whatever science training you have. The concepts became recognized because they represent the physical world accurately. Howver, they are not adequate concepts to explain all possible malfunctions. That doesn't reduce their status from confirmed physical theory/physical law to simple speculation.

smasha

i do have formal training in electronics, and i'm not speculating. my comments are based on observations of how different types of devices charge, or fail to charge, on my solar panels.

in theory, voltage and current are all that matters. in practice, that's not the whole story.

thanks for sharing your opinion, anyway. if you want to critique what i wrote further, please read past the first sentence of what i wrote.

SmallFront

No, no integrity whatsoever.

Road Fan

Smasha,

You're right, I did only address your first comment. And, I did read the rest of it. Yes, it does show some familiarity with electricity, but not the methods of electrical engineering. Your main messages seem to be 1) Voltage and current specs may not be enough to explain or predict whether a pair of devices will work together, 2) there are low-cost ways to get an indication of voltage and current, and 3) because of the differences between devices with seemingly the same role, functionality of any given match just needs to be tested, including talking to others who may have tested it.

Fine, that was good advice. And I agree with it. Kudos and thumbs up.