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  1. #76
    Senior Member 01 CAt Man Do's Avatar
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    Since this thread has morphed a bit into a "cold weather battery issue" thread I thought I'd add some comments along this line aimed at helping "It's just me";

    IJM...you have a particular conundrum; You ride in really cold weather, you have multiple bikes and you want to use a lamp that uses batteries and has a road worthy cut-off beam pattern. Really going to be hard to find something that fits all those requirements. I really do think that a good dyno-setup would be best for someone who really wants to ride in the winter but like you said you have multiple bikes so unless you have a favorite bike for riding in the winter a dynamo set-up isn't going to meet your needs.

    That said, using any type of self-contained ( or other ) battery lamp in the winter is likely going to have run-time problems once the temps really begin to fall. Last year I experimented with various set-ups in an attempt to see if I could keep a Li-ion battery warm. It really didn't matter how much insulation I used, eventually the battery got real cold. The fact that you have to mount the battery bag to aluminum tubes doesn't help. The cold just travels down the wire eventually and the pack starts to drop in temperature.

    I finally did reach a solution that seemed to work but is a major PITA to go through ( if you wanted to do it on a regular basis ). What I did was set-up a good size battery bag with some light insulation ( cardboard in my case ) and arranged it in a way to work with one of the small-thin butane hand warmers. These butane hand warmers get pretty hot when enclosed so you need to add some insulation to isolate them a bit. When I tested it I used digital thermometers to monitor the temperature of both sides of the battery. Out on my balcony in 10°F weather ( the coldest I get where I live ) the battery maintained a temperature of about 65°F. ( That was with just a a couple mm of thin cardboard/fleece between the heater and the 4-cell flat pack. )

    Now if you're going to use a self-contained lamp none of this will help but I thought it worth mentioning in case you have a way to attach an external battery with your Phillips SR. BatterySpace sells a Li-ion battery pack that would work with a Phillips SR but you would have to do some light custom wiring to the lamp to make it work. The battery pack I'm talking about is regulated to 6 volts but only provides 1A output. Not sure if the Phillips draws more than that but thought it worth mentioning.

    ( **Note about the battery I linked to; I have one of the batteries which I sparingly used with a DiNotte 200L ( AA set-up ). It more than doubled the run time but the battery does self discharge faster than normal ( when not being used ) because of the regulator. )
    Last edited by 01 CAt Man Do; 12-16-13 at 10:14 PM.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by rekmeyata View Post
    And you're trying to slam Phillips for being a bad light which it isn't even Amazon reviews you provided proved you're wrong. And I did discuss the battery issue proved from Panasonic that Li Ion will run far less shorter run times as the temps drop below 32 F and continues downward, proved to you that the run time for the batteries in the Phillips is 2 hours on high which all the reviews say is true except two where one got a bad cell and another ran it in -19 degrees far below the recommended 32 degrees even for Li-Ion bats. You've been proven wrong on ALL points and is obvious an attempt by you to discourage people from buying that light which means you do have an agenda; so this ends my debate with you. You can make all the rebuttals you want but their all bad and have no evidence to support your made up BS, and I'm not going to stop you because anyone reading any of this will know you're wrong.
    Lol, that is really amusing. I haven't seen someone go so hardcore fanboy as actually denying that reviews you can look up right now on amazon don't exist in - years. It's like being back in 2005, when people didn't understand how the internet worked and that you could just look up the site right now to see they are there.

    Anyone who does any actual research knows what I said - the Phillips is a nice light, except for it's runtime. Even with better batteries than it comes with, and an external charger, it's still only 1-2 hours. You'll never get 2 hours out of it on high. It just doesn't do it.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do View Post
    Now if you're going to use a self-contained lamp none of this will help but I thought it worth mentioning in case you have a way to attach an external battery with your Phillips SR. BatterySpace sells a Li-ion battery pack that would work with a Phillips SR but you would have to do some light custom wiring to the lamp to make it work. The battery pack I'm talking about is regulated to 6 volts but only provides 1A output. Not sure if the Phillips draws more than that but thought it worth mentioning.
    If I remember right, I think the problem with that is that the Phillips has some sort of built-in time-out where it turns itself off after a certain period of time, doesn't it? I seem to remember people wiring that up, but the light would shut off at the same time every time, and they had to physically disconnect then reconnect the battery pack then it would keep running.

  4. #79
    Seņior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrCjolsen View Post
    Today, it was right around 32 degrees, and I saw no decrease in run time. One morning it was colder, and the light cut out rather early, but that could have been due to some sketchy batteries in my collection.
    32 degrees isn't really cold enough to make much difference. In my experience, down below 10 degrees F is where the dropoff really starts.

    Here's a chart I found online that indicates that at -20C (the temp I was riding at the other day) you get about 20% of the normal capacity (80% loss). At 0C (your temp) you're over 80% capacity (20% loss).

    http://dpfwiw.com/images/nimh_temp-capacity.gif

    20% sounds about right - people say somewhat under 2 hours is normal with that light, perhaps 100 to 120 minutes. I got 20 minutes. The batteries were fresh so with a few charge cycles I could probably have improved it, but even if it added 50%, 30 minutes isn't good enough.

    At the same -20C, LiIon performance drops to about 75% of room temperature performance.
    Last edited by ItsJustMe; 12-17-13 at 11:38 AM.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  5. #80
    Seņior Member ItsJustMe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do View Post
    Now if you're going to use a self-contained lamp none of this will help but I thought it worth mentioning in case you have a way to attach an external battery with your Phillips SR. BatterySpace sells a Li-ion battery pack that would work with a Phillips SR but you would have to do some light custom wiring to the lamp to make it work.
    I would have to hack into the Philips circuitry. I tried and you can't just hook power to the light when running - the instant you plug in, the light shuts off, and it won't come back on again until you unplug.

    I'm not thrilled about the idea of buying a brand new light and immediately throwing out the power system and hacking it.

    I may decide to buy a B&M Ixon IQ Speed (perhaps the Premium version) extra lamp head - they sell that separately - then attach a LiIon pack, with regulator if necessary. But right now I'm just using my $30 ebay light and decided it's good enough.
    Work: the 8 hours that separates bike rides.

  6. #81
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    Looked at the offerings from Philips.
    I think good bang for buck, especially from the dynamo version although its not as bright.
    The aesthetics didnt grab me so I went with the polished alloy Edelux which I love to bits.
    I did buy the Philips dynamo tail-light though which I'm over the moon with, called a Lumiring
    http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tes.../index_en.html
    I'm not interested in a p'ing contest with others in here so will simply say I'm pretty forgetful so batteries dont suit me.
    My set up of Son28, Edelux and Philips Saferide Lumiring suits me mighty fine and I cant see any need, reason or current upgrade to tempt me.
    Happy Spinning

  7. #82
    2_i
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I did buy the Philips dynamo tail-light though which I'm over the moon with, called a Lumiring
    Few questions about Lumiring: 1. How does its performance stack against the price? For the price, you start already getting reasonable front lights. 2. Do you know by chance how much current that light is consuming? I observed wide variations in the current consumed by rear LEDs, often in no particular relation to practical performance. 3. How do you find its standlight function? Thanks

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
    Few questions about Lumiring: 1. How does its performance stack against the price? For the price, you start already getting reasonable front lights. 2. Do you know by chance how much current that light is consuming? I observed wide variations in the current consumed by rear LEDs, often in no particular relation to practical performance. 3. How do you find its standlight function? Thanks
    Well it cost me 20.92 Euros or $28.65 US (approx) plus postage from Germany.
    Buying it with a bunch of other stuff saw the postage as minimal.
    It compares favorably with similar products like the Busch & Muller Toplight line plus (linetec) according to the reviews I've read.
    What it doesnt suffer from (so far or from the reviews) is water ingress, which theres been some reports of for the B&M product which is pretty much what determined my choice.
    Current consumption? - No idea sorry and neither do I care as it doesn't affect the light output from my Edelux headlight and my Garmin doesn't seem to run out of power over my usual 2 hour night ride a couple of times a week.
    The standlight function seems to work fine in that it hasnt run out for the few traffic stops I'm currently forced to attend.
    Theres not a lot to say from my perspective except it works.
    I've still a Serfas 9(?) led blinky attached to my seat-post for emergency or failure of the Philips but after some months now of use, I'm not holding my breath for that failure to happen.
    Reasonable front lights?
    What I will say is that I dont ever want to be in a position of lying in a hospital bed wondering if I should/could have bought better lights to have avoided that accident.
    I wont skimp on lights or brakes - My choices weren't the dearest nor cheapest available and work well for me.

  9. #84
    2_i
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    Well it cost me 20.92 Euros or $28.65 US (approx) plus postage from Germany.
    Buying it with a bunch of other stuff saw the postage as minimal.
    It compares favorably with similar products like the Busch & Muller Toplight line plus (linetec) according to the reviews I've read.
    What it doesnt suffer from (so far or from the reviews) is water ingress, which theres been some reports of for the B&M product which is pretty much what determined my choice.
    Current consumption? - No idea sorry and neither do I care
    Thanks. With regard to reviews, I tend to treat them with much caution. At times people make authoritative statements while they deal with a second light in their life. At other times people consider conditions that are removed from mine. Often I own the same product(s) and my opinion is quite opposite.

    I've been through maybe 15 different B&M rear lights on different bikes and only one model had a moisture problem and in that not LinePlus for many months by now in the rain on my main bike. Nearly all worked fine in terms of an adequate illumination. In fact, there was no problem getting a decent rear illumination already with incandescent bulbs consuming only a fraction of the overall power in the dynamo system. LEDs brought better efficiency and reliability. Still new innovative solutions, such as what Lumiring seems to be can be worth checking out. (LinePlus seems to employ a similar solution weighted more towards purpose, relative to show, than in Lumiring.) Current is important for me, because in my main system I can direct any excess power for charging of backup batteries - important in winter when you may need to ride with lights on at all time and additionally ride slowly. Price is important with regard to a number of bikes. On one bike I can do nearly anything, but not on 5. Anyway, for one bike I may try out Lumiring if I have an occasion to get it at the lower end of its price distribution.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
    Current is important for me, because in my main system I can direct any excess power for charging of backup batteries - important in winter when you may need to ride with lights on at all time and additionally ride slowly.
    I've found my Son28 tends to keep up with my lights (Edelux and Philips Lumiring) as well as allowing my E-werk with cache battery to keep up with the charging requirements of my Edge 800 gps.
    Better in fact than my Sondelux dynohub in 20" (406) wheeled Moulton I had previously.
    I consider myself a slow rider mostly meandering around 16 kmph
    I think when I fall below 7 kmph a message on the Edge pops up suggesting its lost connection with charger.

  11. #86
    2_i
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I've found my Son28 tends to keep up with my lights (Edelux and Philips Lumiring) as well as allowing my E-werk with cache battery to keep up with the charging requirements of my Edge 800 gps.
    I consider myself a slow rider mostly meandering around 16 kmph
    I think when I fall below 7 kmph a message on the Edge pops up suggesting its lost connection with charger.
    Thanks, that is useful. My system is of my own design and I did not get to implement yet an add-on for charging USB devices. On the list of things to do, but low priority.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
    Thanks, that is useful. My system is of my own design and I did not get to implement yet an add-on for charging USB devices. On the list of things to do, but low priority.
    No worries, just to be clear should have said when I fall below 7 kmph at night with my lights on (up steep'ish hills) I get a message about lost connection with charger (on the Edge 800 screen).
    From memory my Sondelux setup used to give no message but my headlight would dim.
    Not sure why the symptoms are different as I didnt have a dynamo tail-light with my Moulton.
    Just the Edelux and E-werk, cache battery and Edge 800.

  13. #88
    2_i
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    It compares favorably with similar products like the Busch & Muller Toplight line plus (linetec) according to the reviews I've read.
    OK, upon your recommendation and given the likely disappearance of the Philips lights in the near future, I jumped and got myself the Lumiring. I have to say that I like its appearance from up close. However, from side-by-side comparison against my reference B&M Lineplus, it is always dimmer. It is dimmer from straight on far away and interestingly dimmer from any angle, from the side, above etc. I.e. while Philips claims that Lumiring's benefit is in its visibility from large angles, it falls behind that first light I took for comparison. Still Lumiring is good enough and I do not regret getting it - in spite of it being dimmer it is bright enough and looks good. However, on the main bike I will rather keep Lineplus, given the direct comparison. Also an advantage for me is that I can switch off the standlight in Lineplus but in Lumiring. After its standlight capacitor is charged, Lumiring takes little current, just about 17mA. Lineplus takes also very little current, about 20mA, but I did not check the exact value in its case.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2_i View Post
    OK, upon your recommendation and given the likely disappearance of the Philips lights in the near future, I jumped and got myself the Lumiring. I have to say that I like its appearance from up close. However, from side-by-side comparison against my reference B&M Lineplus, it is always dimmer. It is dimmer from straight on far away and interestingly dimmer from any angle, from the side, above etc. I.e. while Philips claims that Lumiring's benefit is in its visibility from large angles, it falls behind that first light I took for comparison. Still Lumiring is good enough and I do not regret getting it - in spite of it being dimmer it is bright enough and looks good. However, on the main bike I will rather keep Lineplus, given the direct comparison. Also an advantage for me is that I can switch off the standlight in Lineplus but in Lumiring. After its standlight capacitor is charged, Lumiring takes little current, just about 17mA. Lineplus takes also very little current, about 20mA, but I did not check the exact value in its case.
    Hiya,
    thanks for the feedback on your experiences with the Lumiring.
    I agree its an attractive light (unlike some) which appeals to my sense of aesthetic.
    Good to know for future reference, in case anyone asks, what the draw of current is approx.
    I have heard differing opinions on output compared to the Lineplus so I took a punt that it was acceptable and have found it more than acceptable in useage.
    One of the feedbacks I found online with regards to the Lineplus was water ingress which swung me to the Lumiring.
    I think I formed my purchase decision mainly from:
    http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tes.../index_en.html
    due to their being no shops local to me that carry either tail-light.

    Happy Spinning

  15. #90
    2_i
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    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    One of the feedbacks I found online with regards to the Lineplus was water ingress which swung me to the Lumiring.
    I have Line Plus on my bike for maybe 2 years or so, half of that time during the day parked outside, and had no water problems whatsoever while we do get plenty of water from above.

    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    I think I formed my purchase decision mainly from:
    http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tes.../index_en.html
    due to their being no shops local to me that carry either tail-light.
    I have to admit that I avoid that website due to strongly biased opinions there (and tilted towards Philips) - I do not even want to get subconsciously influenced . The site's author posted also here.

    Quote Originally Posted by rifraf View Post
    Happy Spinning
    Well, our spinning is highly irregular now, since one needs to work against piles of snow and ice. Yours must be better paced, though maybe hampered by heat - I am only familiar with Melbourne/Geelong area. I wish you a Happy Spinning too.

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