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  1. #26
    Senior Member 01 CAt Man Do's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    DYNOTEST

    Here is some good data..........
    Okay...did you check the date on that data. ( sorry, I didn't see a date mentioned myself ). I question the relevance of the data but only because they kept mentioning the worry over burning out the "bulbs" if too much current was not regulated. That said they must be talking about halogen lighting and I don't think anyone here is considering buying a Dynamo with a halogen lamp. Nowadays I would think most people would want a dynamo / LED lamp set-up with a stand-light circuit so that the output would be more consistent.

    Anyway, the basic point I'm making is that if the chart is dated perhaps there are better dynamos now available. Why look at old news?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do View Post
    Okay...did you check the date on that data. ( sorry, I didn't see a date mentioned myself ). I question the relevance of the data but only because they kept mentioning the worry over burning out the "bulbs" if too much current was not regulated. That said they must be talking about halogen lighting and I don't think anyone here is considering buying a Dynamo with a halogen lamp. Nowadays I would think most people would want a dynamo / LED lamp set-up with a stand-light circuit so that the output would be more consistent.

    Anyway, the basic point I'm making is that if the chart is dated perhaps there are better dynamos now available. Why look at old news?
    I was thinking that too, but I don't think the dynamos have changed even if the lights did. And again, the German standard was written to bulbs, not LED, and that in itself is a good reason to ignore it now. Why isn't there a light with a shaped beam that will also zoom out to flood? Why can't we have a blinking front and back? If we had those things we wouldn't be arguing battery vs. dynamo.

    As someone already said, the standard is a minimum standard, but it is also getting in the way of maximum results.

    And in spite of my promise to do a further test last night, a bottle of wine with my wife got in the way.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    DYNOTEST

    Here is some good data..........

    More recent measurements here:
    New and exotic hub dynamo in Test | Bicycle future - Issue 14

  4. #29
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    Last edited by Weatherby; 03-16-14 at 04:05 PM.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartsu View Post
    No difference in output for 12 ohm loads.

    The actual data is inferior.

    OP was interested in output and how to measure.

    At about 20 mph, they all yield about 4 watts and at 10 mph you get about 3 watts. The rest is all noise.

  6. #31
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do View Post
    Okay...did you check the date on that data. ( sorry, I didn't see a date mentioned myself ). I question the relevance of the data but only because they kept mentioning the worry over burning out the "bulbs" if too much current was not regulated. That said they must be talking about halogen lighting and I don't think anyone here is considering buying a Dynamo with a halogen lamp. Nowadays I would think most people would want a dynamo / LED lamp set-up with a stand-light circuit so that the output would be more consistent.

    Anyway, the basic point I'm making is that if the chart is dated perhaps there are better dynamos now available. Why look at old news?
    The article may be more than 10 years old. I found it quite a while ago when I first discovered Myra's website. But, while the generators might be old, the SON he tested was also tested recently in a BQ article. It's still ahead of most of the others available today.

    But as well, the age of the data doesn't really matter since the physics of generators hasn't changed, and even magnetic materials have not changed very much. It's still a good study.

  7. #32
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zacster View Post
    I was thinking that too, but I don't think the dynamos have changed even if the lights did. And again, the German standard was written to bulbs, not LED, and that in itself is a good reason to ignore it now. Why isn't there a light with a shaped beam that will also zoom out to flood? Why can't we have a blinking front and back? If we had those things we wouldn't be arguing battery vs. dynamo.

    As someone already said, the standard is a minimum standard, but it is also getting in the way of maximum results.

    And in spite of my promise to do a further test last night, a bottle of wine with my wife got in the way.
    Sounds like your priorities are correct!

    For the US and other North American markets, the German standard is irrelevant, though educational. It does not lay any requirements on lights to be sold in the US market. It does help us understand what we're going to get when we buy German products.

    I still really don't see how it's constraining your maximum results, or those of any American manufacturer who does not want to sell in Germany. We don't have to abide by it. We are free to choose to abide by it, or not.

    You can put a mega-battery light on a bike if you still want to, or build a super version of a Luxos if you see fit and are capable. No harm, no foul in North America.
    Last edited by Road Fan; 03-16-14 at 04:49 PM.

  8. #33
    LET'S ROLL 1nterceptor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by no1mad View Post
    You might check with Interceptor. I don't know if he has that particular light, but IIRC, he was in the process of gathering different lights- battery and dyno- (his and loaned to him from others) for a big comparison. I tried finding the thread, but came up empty.
    Quote Originally Posted by zacster View Post
    I remember that thread. I'll look for it or contact him directly.
    Hey, I just stumbled on this thread. Would be glad to meet up with you Zacster and bring some of
    my battery powered lights. I was trying to do a similar comparo with Noglider; but life got in the way
    and I got distracted. I work M-F/9am -5pm in midtown. So Manhattan would be the best place for me.
    Willing to go to Brooklyn as long as it's not too far over from one of the bridges.

    Some of the lights I can bring Magicchine XM-L T6 clone:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLeZ...6zPoymgKaIoDLA

    DX 5 x XM-L T6, this one stopped working after I dropped my bike.
    Got to check if i can revive it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huyC...6zPoymgKaIoDLA

  9. #34
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hartsu View Post
    This article, I believe, is the source for the recent (within past 1.5 years?) dyno test article in Bicycle Quarterly, but BQ has a much better translation from the German. Both the older article (Dynohub) and this one were done by engineers within the Wilfried Schmidt company (makers of SON), and hence would be of similar quality. I wouldn't agree that either of these test reports is of lower quality than the other.

  10. #35
    Senior Member Road Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    No difference in output for 12 ohm loads.

    The actual data is inferior.

    OP was interested in output and how to measure.

    At about 20 mph, they all yield about 4 watts and at 10 mph you get about 3 watts. The rest is all noise.
    Yeah, you could interpret it that way.

  11. #36
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    Newer models of Schmidt for instance are more efficient but the outputs are not significantly different. Lighter and more efficient probably due to consumption of valuable rare earth magnets; nonetheless, you still get 3-4W at normal cycling speeds. Of course, the design requirements and regulations could be changed, but is that likely? Is it practical? How much forward movement would cyclist sacrifice?

    If I were to buy one, it would definately be the Schmidt delux. The Shimano is a dog when when switched off unlike the Schmitt, which consumes only about a watt or so compared to several watts wasted by the Shimano hub.

    http://www.nabendynamo.de/produkte/p...neu_e_2012.pdf

    http://www.nabendynamo.de/produkte/p...x_Edelux_e.pdf
    Last edited by Weatherby; 03-16-14 at 05:53 PM.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Newer models of Schmidt for instance are more efficient but the outputs are not significantly different. Lighter and more efficient probably due to consumption of valuable rare earth magnets; nonetheless, you still get 3-4W at normal cycling speeds. Of course, the design requirements and regulations could be changed, but is that likely? Is it practical? How much forward movement would cyclist sacrifice?

    If I were to buy one, it would definately be the Schmidt delux. The Shimano is a dog when when switched off unlike the Schmitt, which consumes only about a watt or so compared to several watts wasted by the Shimano hub.

    http://www.nabendynamo.de/produkte/p...neu_e_2012.pdf

    http://www.nabendynamo.de/produkte/p...x_Edelux_e.pdf
    In contrast, the Peter White site -
    Shimano DH-3N70 Dynohub from Peter White Cycles

    Rates "Energy required of the rider to rotate the hub when the lights are turned off at 30 km/h." as only 2.2 watts for the Shimano vs 1.5 watts for the Schmitt SON.

    P.S. I took at look at the graph, and even though it's Schmidt marketing literature, the only Shimano that's bad is the very old 3N30, which I don't think anyone sells anymore. The Shimano 3N80 only consumes negligibly more power than the Schmidt. The Schmidt is slightly better, but also costs around $300 vs the Shimano at around $100.

  13. #38
    coprolite fietsbob's Avatar
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    article in Bicycle Quarterly, but BQ has a much better translation from the German.
    makes sense having heard him speak, I think the Publisher is bilingual and a native German speaker,
    who may have learned fluent English in German schools .. then moved to Seattle..

    as a lover of doing the PBP , and the French Bikes made for the rides there, His French may be fine too .

  14. #39
    Senior Member 01 CAt Man Do's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    No difference in output for 12 ohm loads.

    The actual data is inferior.

    OP was interested in output and how to measure.

    At about 20 mph, they all yield about 4 watts and at 10 mph you get about 3 watts. The rest is all noise.
    I spend a lot of time looking at those charts. I don't think I could say they were all equal once you factor in the possible varied load resistances and the different speeds ( particularly when you get over 30mph which can easily happen on some down hills ).

    I was very impressed with the Sanyo H27 seeing that it is also one of the more *inexpensive models yet still had very good output at lower and middle speeds ( *~$50 )

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    I've always assumed that the difference between the better dynamos, Schmidt, Shimano, SP, Sanyo and a few others is more in the weight and efficiency than the output. I have the Shimano and can't say that I want a better hub because the Shimano is bad in some way. I can't tell one way or the other that it is a dynamo hub, even with the lights on full. The bike rides better than it did before for many other reasons too.

    1nterceptor: Sure, lets get together. I work in midtown 9-5 also, but we'd have to wait until dark, which is around 7:30-8:00 now, and getting later every day. I'm over on the east side. We could test on the east side greenway to stay off the streets, although I don't know what it is like from a streetlight standpoint. I only have taken that in daylight. This week is looking bad, maybe next? Can't wait too long.

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01 CAt Man Do View Post
    I spend a lot of time looking at those charts. I don't think I could say they were all equal once you factor in the possible varied load resistances and the different speeds ( particularly when you get over 30mph which can easily happen on some down hills ).

    I was very impressed with the Sanyo H27 seeing that it is also one of the more *inexpensive models yet still had very good output at lower and middle speeds ( *~$50 )
    The load resistance is 12 ohms. The other data is useless.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers View Post
    In contrast, the Peter White site -
    Shimano DH-3N70 Dynohub from Peter White Cycles

    Rates "Energy required of the rider to rotate the hub when the lights are turned off at 30 km/h." as only 2.2 watts for the Shimano vs 1.5 watts for the Schmitt SON.

    P.S. I took at look at the graph, and even though it's Schmidt marketing literature, the only Shimano that's bad is the very old 3N30, which I don't think anyone sells anymore. The Shimano 3N80 only consumes negligibly more power than the Schmidt. The Schmidt is slightly better, but also costs around $300 vs the Shimano at around $100.
    Peter does not indicate how he measured the drag on the Shimano. It weighs 300 grams more than the delux and is inferior. A watt or two here and a half a pound there and servicability mean something.

  18. #43
    Zoom zoom zoom zoom bonk znomit's Avatar
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    The Shimano 3n80 is 485g.

  19. #44
    Senior Member 01 CAt Man Do's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    The load resistance is 12 ohms. The other data is useless.
    Okay, if you say so but I thought If I actually bought one of these things that I might try to charge my S-phone on it that I use for navigating during the day. I figure if it helps me carry less batteries it makes owning a dynamo more useful. That also applies to the smaller USB style mini-flashers that I sometimes use in the day ( not that I've ever had a problem with running out of battery juice when using them ). If I get a dynamo I want it to earn it's keep. Anything that it can do to take the place of other items I usually carry would be a plus.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulRivers
    In contrast, the Peter White site -
    Shimano DH-3N70 Dynohub from Peter White Cycles

    Rates "Energy required of the rider to rotate the hub when the lights are turned off at 30 km/h." as only 2.2 watts for the Shimano vs 1.5 watts for the Schmitt SON.

    P.S. I took at look at the graph, and even though it's Schmidt marketing literature, the only Shimano that's bad is the very old 3N30, which I don't think anyone sells anymore. The Shimano 3N80 only consumes negligibly more power than the Schmidt. The Schmidt is slightly better, but also costs around $300 vs the Shimano at around $100.
    Quote Originally Posted by Weatherby View Post
    Peter does not indicate how he measured the drag on the Shimano. It weighs 300 grams more than the delux and is inferior. A watt or two here and a half a pound there and servicability mean something.
    I'm pretty sure Peter white just copied his numbers from the same pdf you posted, I don't think he tested it himself.

    You claimed this -
    "The Shimano is a dog when when switched off unlike the Schmitt, which consumes only about a watt or so compared to several watts wasted by the Shimano hub"

    Which is wrong - if you compare vs the only Shimano hub they sell now, the drag when the light is off is:
    Schmidt: 1.5 watts
    Shimano: 2.2 watts

    (A 0.7 watt difference)

    Now you're wrongly claiming that the Shimano weighs 300 grams more than the Schmidt. But this is what the Peter White page says either:
    Shimano: 680 grams
    Schmidt: 575 grams

    That's a 105 gram (18%) difference, despite your exaggerated claim of 300 grams.

    You don't actually know anything about these dynamo hubs, do you?

  21. #46
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    The Shimano is less than 680 grams, I thought more like 580. It doesn't matter really. I don't even know that it is there. I was riding it last weekend and I passed more than a few roadies on it, and the bike is an old MTB. They were pretty impressed that I could crank a MTB like that.

    The Shutter Precision hubs are lighter and not that much more money, maybe for my next wheel I'll buy that. There is something though about a Shimano hub that I trust. Schmidt is just too expensive.

    But here's the thing really. I ONLY ride in the dark in the fall, when the days start getting shorter and I don't want to give up riding. This year I didn't ride at all in the winter because of the weather, and I'm still not riding at night. And since the clocks have changed, I doubt I'll ride at night unless I purposely decide to do so to check out the light. I work 9-5+ and have a family and I'm just not going to be out all night.

  22. #47
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    zacster, can I come over your house and play?

    I'm game to compare lights. I have a B&M dyno headlight and a Philips dyno headlight. They impress me in the fact that they are adequate but not as astoundingly great as you find yours to be. Either your light is much better, or I'm harder to please.

    I also have a Dosun dyno headlight, but that's on a bike I loaned out for a few months. I don't think I like it as much as the B&M or the Philips. But it is also adequate.

    I once rode with the B&M on a completely unlit road at a speed of 20 mph or more. That is what I call adequate. It is more than adequate for some riders, because some people rarely hit 20 mph.

    I realize the days are getting longer, so we would have to go out and play after dinner time. I'm OK with that. Are you a short enough ride from one of the bridges? I'm in Manhattan, about 2 miles from the Brooklyn Bridge.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
    Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog

  23. #48
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    Sure. Maybe you, I and 1nterceptor could get together on the east side bikeway. I've never been on it at night but it seems like it would be dark. It would certainly be empty as it is mostly empty during the day..

    How does next Wednesday night sound? 3/25 Meet at 23rd st and 1st. Let me know and I'll be there weather permitting. 7:30pm when it is just getting dark.

  24. #49
    aka Tom Reingold noglider's Avatar
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    The location is good. Do you mean Wednesday the 26th? 7:30 would be good.
    You don't read my signature anyway, do you?

    Tom Reingold, noglider@pobox.com
    Residences: West Village, New York City and High Falls, NY
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  25. #50
    LET'S ROLL 1nterceptor's Avatar
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    I can make it. Not sure exactly where a good spot is on the east side.
    As I normally take the west side path or Central Park drive. We should
    invite anybody who wants to join in; just show up with your lights.



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