All you studs with the bright headlights - they are annoying
#51
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It is possible to 'flood the path' with light AND not blind everybody else in the process. That is the point of all of this... It is not just you that needs to see...
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One note about those older auto headlights. If you pull out the bulb and inspect it you will see that the front of the bulb is opaque so the filament is not directly viewable. It can only be seen reflected off of the curved bowl behind it. That makes even older headlights more tolerable to oncoming motorists. Super bright LED lights where the emitter is directly viewable from the front are a hazard, even if the viewer is not directly in the main cone of light. Moderate brightness LEDs are okay but these high output ones should not be used for road riding on public roads.
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Indeed, on my car, there is an aluminum dome in front of the lamp, to block that direct beam. I have studied lighting design a bit, and there's an interesting trick for dealing with the "direct" beam. You put a slighly off axis hemispherical reflector in front of the filament, which forms an image directly above or below the filament, so that it is then collected by the large reflective bowl, and is projected forward in the main beam.
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YES! It is things like this in the design of even older auto headlights that prevents direct view of the filament so they are 'easy on the eyes' of everyone else. Even basic features like this are completely absent in flashlight-based LED lights that are low cost and have become very common in use for bike 'headlights'. There is a huge difference between these two technologies.
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Long winded again but you just made my point - Brighter shaped beams are okay to use on the road because they are in fact easier on the eyes than bright conical beams. They are used, and do not blind motorists BECAUSE THEY ARE DIFFERENT than conventional flashlight-style conical beamlights. That is EXACTLY the point of why they are used and why very bright conventional lights should not be used.
That is why the auto industry can use a 1200 lumen light in a shaped beam without major detriment to oncoming drivers and an 1000 lumen 'flashlight' is a hazard to oncoming motorists.
Thanks!
I hope others here will see and agree...
That is why the auto industry can use a 1200 lumen light in a shaped beam without major detriment to oncoming drivers and an 1000 lumen 'flashlight' is a hazard to oncoming motorists.
Thanks!
I hope others here will see and agree...
And, again, LED lights used on bicycles don't put out 1000 lumens. They can only physically put out about 650 lumens under the very best conditions. That's not all that bright.
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[QUOTE=Gresp15C;17329042] What do you mean by shaped beams? Car headlights have controlled the shape of the beam since the dawn of the automobile age. The "sealed beam" headlamp that we grew up with shaped the beam with a combination of a reflector in the bowl and optical elements molded into the front lens.[QUOTE=Gresp15C;17329042]
For the purposes of this discussion, I mean car headlights with a cut off on the top of the beam. Car headlights have some shaping to the beam but not for cutting off the top of the beam.
I've not seen too many LED lights outside of some of the German ones that have any kind of beam shaping. That's what the argument is about. Even halogen lights and HID for bicycles were never "shaped" for a cut off on the beam.
They can be used somewhat interchangeably but the lumen is probably a easier term to understand. To give the "candela" of a light, you need to know more about the shape of the reflector. Lumens are easier to wrap your head around.
There are plenty of lamps where you can see the filament of the lamp. The reflector on some lamp filaments were there to direct the light from the source back from the focal point back into the reflector. It's slightly more efficient that way. The light coming out of the beam is still the same intensity. You are making too much about this "being able to see the emitter" thing. It does not matter if you can see the light source or not. You see the effects coming out of the front of the lamp.
For the purposes of this discussion, I mean car headlights with a cut off on the top of the beam. Car headlights have some shaping to the beam but not for cutting off the top of the beam.
Here, the problem is that lumens aren't a useful measure of the brightness of the light. Visible brightness at a given distance is determined by the luminous output of the lamp (lumens) per unit solid angle (steradian). The candela is a lumen per steradian.
Photometry (optics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Photometry (optics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
One note about those older auto headlights. If you pull out the bulb and inspect it you will see that the front of the bulb is opaque so the filament is not directly viewable. It can only be seen reflected off of the curved bowl behind it. That makes even older headlights more tolerable to oncoming motorists. Super bright LED lights where the emitter is directly viewable from the front are a hazard, even if the viewer is not directly in the main cone of light. Moderate brightness LEDs are okay but these high output ones should not be used for road riding on public roads.
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They can be used interchangeably in the sense that pounds and pounds per square inch can be used interchangeably, i.e., as a way to be wrong about things. I have no problem wrapping my head around using the correct units of measure for the matter at hand. Purporting to make something easy to understand by being wrong about it, is most likely to result in people becoming even more confused about it, or suspecting that you don't understand it yourself.
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You keep thinking made your point but I haven't. Shaped beams...i.e. ones with a cutoff for the top of the beam... for automobiles is a relatively recent development. There are millions of cars still on the road without cutoffs on the top of the beam and, for some of us, we learned to drive before cutoff were even a thought. We managed to drive even with those kinds of lights.
And, again, LED lights used on bicycles don't put out 1000 lumens. They can only physically put out about 650 lumens under the very best conditions. That's not all that bright.
And, again, LED lights used on bicycles don't put out 1000 lumens. They can only physically put out about 650 lumens under the very best conditions. That's not all that bright.
As for the lumens from currently available bike lights, sure they tend to be exaggerated, but around 500 - 600 lumens per Cree T6 emitter is pretty reasonable. Since many of these lights have 3, 4, 5, or 6 emitters it's very possible for them to have well in excess of 1000 lumens.
Last edited by prathmann; 11-22-14 at 12:40 PM.
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[QUOTE=cyccommute;17330728]
This is incorrect. It actually does matter and is the reason they make auto headlights the way they do. If it did not matter, why would they go to all of that expense and trouble?
Assume a high output LED emitter is about 1/16" across. when you look at it directly the intensity of what you see coming from that tiny spot is extremely high. With modern lights designed for cars you cannot see this tiny point. You see what appears to be the same amount of light, but spread evenly across a source measuring maybe 20 square inches. Same total light but intensity per unit surface area is much lower because that same amount of light is seen as emanating from a 20 square inch surface. When looking at an auto headlight note that the intensity appears to be about the same across the whole surface of the headlight. If that same amount of light was seen concentrated from a tiny point the intensity of that point would be many multiples higher.
It is not the total amount of light falling on your eye, it is the amount of concentrated light from a tiny point that hits your eye that is blinding.
That is why it DOES matter if you can see the emitter and why auto headlights are designed to mask the light source and why super bright flashlight lights where you can see the emitter are not appropriate for road use as headlights.
Assume a high output LED emitter is about 1/16" across. when you look at it directly the intensity of what you see coming from that tiny spot is extremely high. With modern lights designed for cars you cannot see this tiny point. You see what appears to be the same amount of light, but spread evenly across a source measuring maybe 20 square inches. Same total light but intensity per unit surface area is much lower because that same amount of light is seen as emanating from a 20 square inch surface. When looking at an auto headlight note that the intensity appears to be about the same across the whole surface of the headlight. If that same amount of light was seen concentrated from a tiny point the intensity of that point would be many multiples higher.
It is not the total amount of light falling on your eye, it is the amount of concentrated light from a tiny point that hits your eye that is blinding.
That is why it DOES matter if you can see the emitter and why auto headlights are designed to mask the light source and why super bright flashlight lights where you can see the emitter are not appropriate for road use as headlights.
Last edited by dwmckee; 11-22-14 at 05:32 PM.
#60
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So why are we arguing? There are lights available with a cutoff, albeit a little more expensive. I have one (German of course) and it has a sharp cutoff, spreads the light far and wide, and being dynamo powered is usually on.
I ride the Manhattan Bridge between Brooklyn and Manhattan all the time. The bike lane is fairly narrow and separated from the roadway by 2 tracks of the subway. I've been blinded by the oncoming bike lights many times, yet when I ride directly on someone's tail, my light maybe hits their butt, but just barely. (How's that for a measurement? The butt factor! Better than a butt fumble.) But yet, they all start getting annoyed when I'm behind because they think I'm riding an e-bike with a bright light because the beam is otherwise bright and wide, and washes out their own light. I've had many people complain about my light, but it is always the person in front of me riding the same direction, not the oncoming cyclist. Every now and then someone will ask about it though because it does throw so much light. (B&M Cyo Premium btw.)
I've looked straight at it as someone rode my bike towards me and it is not blinding at all.
I also have a stroboscopic LED light that I used for a while, and I know that one annoyed the oncoming cyclists, so I stopped using it in strobe and pointed it down. It has been retired from bike use, but since it has a head strap has become my night gardening and electronics work lamp. I have CSS* and need bright light to work. (*Can't See Sh*t)
I also saw someone's comment about wanting to light street signs, etc... Why? My old LED light would light the street signs a half mile away, but what good did that do me? Every reflective surface and sign ahead of me would be brightly lit and it didn't help in the least. I am riding in NYC, so most streets are plenty bright on their own. Maybe if I were riding in someplace truly dark I'd appreciate this more.
I ride the Manhattan Bridge between Brooklyn and Manhattan all the time. The bike lane is fairly narrow and separated from the roadway by 2 tracks of the subway. I've been blinded by the oncoming bike lights many times, yet when I ride directly on someone's tail, my light maybe hits their butt, but just barely. (How's that for a measurement? The butt factor! Better than a butt fumble.) But yet, they all start getting annoyed when I'm behind because they think I'm riding an e-bike with a bright light because the beam is otherwise bright and wide, and washes out their own light. I've had many people complain about my light, but it is always the person in front of me riding the same direction, not the oncoming cyclist. Every now and then someone will ask about it though because it does throw so much light. (B&M Cyo Premium btw.)
I've looked straight at it as someone rode my bike towards me and it is not blinding at all.
I also have a stroboscopic LED light that I used for a while, and I know that one annoyed the oncoming cyclists, so I stopped using it in strobe and pointed it down. It has been retired from bike use, but since it has a head strap has become my night gardening and electronics work lamp. I have CSS* and need bright light to work. (*Can't See Sh*t)
I also saw someone's comment about wanting to light street signs, etc... Why? My old LED light would light the street signs a half mile away, but what good did that do me? Every reflective surface and sign ahead of me would be brightly lit and it didn't help in the least. I am riding in NYC, so most streets are plenty bright on their own. Maybe if I were riding in someplace truly dark I'd appreciate this more.
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I think the issue is that some people, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary (even their own evidence) still think that there is little difference between modern shaped headlight beams and old fashioned high-power conical beam LED flashlights. Go figure...
By the way, the reflector technology these flashlights use was patented in 1899... Some folks can be really stuck in the past...
By the way, the reflector technology these flashlights use was patented in 1899... Some folks can be really stuck in the past...
Last edited by dwmckee; 11-22-14 at 05:48 PM.
#62
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I have an Edelux 2 with a nice shaped beam. I go on Wed night group rides with lights and my light just barely lights up the butt of the rider in front of me. It's easy to tell the people with the led flashlights because they light up the entire rider in front of them
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I think the issue is that some people, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary (even their own evidence) still think that there is little difference between modern shaped headlight beams and old fashioned high-power conical beam LED flashlights. Go figure...
By the way, the reflector technology these flashlights use was patented in 1899... Some folks can be really stuck in the past...
By the way, the reflector technology these flashlights use was patented in 1899... Some folks can be really stuck in the past...
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#65
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I ride 16 miles to work on a MUP every day. I ride with a very bright light because that is the only way I can see the idiots who don't think to wear a light or something reflective when they ride/run/walk in the dark. When I encounter a cyclist or pedestrian coming towards me it's easy to cover the light with my hand. I find that about 50% of the oncoming riders cover their lights for me. Annoying yes, but hardly debilitating.
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They can be used interchangeably in the sense that pounds and pounds per square inch can be used interchangeably, i.e., as a way to be wrong about things. I have no problem wrapping my head around using the correct units of measure for the matter at hand. Purporting to make something easy to understand by being wrong about it, is most likely to result in people becoming even more confused about it, or suspecting that you don't understand it yourself.
A better light measurement for comparing lights would be lux or lumens per area but that has problems too. Without knowing the distance to the target, you can't know area that the lumens from the light are spread around. For example, the size of the light "circle" is different at 1, 5, 10, etc meters so the lux changes with distance.
Only if you consider the 1940's to be 'relatively recent.' All the cars I've driven have had a headlight beam pattern that shows up as a wide rectangle when seen against a garage door or other vertical surface. That includes our '49 Dodge and all the cars purchased since then. Sure, there's still some light visible above that bright rectangle, but it's greatly reduced compared to the intense light in the shaped rectangular beam pattern and there's a distinct line at the top of the rectangle where the light intensity falls dramatically. Sealed-beam headlights were initially required in 1940 and are able to create that kind of beam pattern since all the light has to hit at least one carefully shaped reflective surface before coming out the front of the lamp. That's very different from the light pattern of my MagicShine clone that is just a circle with the intensity falling off fairly slowly with distance from the center and where most of the light comes directly from the emitter out the front without hitting any shaped reflective element.
But that hardly matters. The Magicshine lights are hardly the problem that people make them out to be.
As for the lumens from currently available bike lights, sure they tend to be exaggerated, but around 500 - 600 lumens per Cree T6 emitter is pretty reasonable. Since many of these lights have 3, 4, 5, or 6 emitters it's very possible for them to have well in excess of 1000 lumens.
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#67
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Your analogy is all wrong. Candela is the pounds per square inch and lumens is the total force. Using a total force for pressure is valid if you know the total surface area of the object the pressure is acting on. Candela is the lumen density over the surface of the sphere of light radiating from the source. Lumens is a measure of the full possible output of the light source around the sphere. One isn't really all that much better than another in terms of light.
A better light measurement for comparing lights would be lux or lumens per area but that has problems too. Without knowing the distance to the target, you can't know area that the lumens from the light are spread around. For example, the size of the light "circle" is different at 1, 5, 10, etc meters so the lux changes with distance.
Photometry (optics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
By the way, I'm guessing that you may actually understand this stuff.
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The 49 Dodge headlamp isn't nearly as "square" as you make it out to be. It certainly doesn't have the cut-off that current model year cars have. I've driven many, many cars with similar headlamps from the 1960 pickup I owned through the 70s sedans and even up to the 2001 Subaru and 2005 Ford Ranger we've owned. The lights on all of those vehicles share more in common with the Magicshine LEDs than with shaped beams current automobile lamps.
When I recently purchased a lamp with a dual emitter, I found out a dirty little secret about those multi-emitter lamps. At least for the lamp that I purchased, they cut down the light output on both lamps so that they can use the same battery pack as single emitter lights. The one I have is really pretty dim compared to my other lights.
What is limiting in some of the light designs is the ability to disperse heat when multiple emitters are run at full power. Look for good size heat sinks on the higher power lights. Otherwise the light output may drop in use as there is heat build up in the lamp.
#70
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This reminds me of an architectural notion about landscape lighting: See the lighting, not the light.
My Cygolite MightyCross has a cycling specific shaped beam from its 2, calibrated to cross, LEDs.
Properly aimed to shine down the road, not up into others eyes, it follows the "see the lighting not the light" idea.
My Cygolite MightyCross has a cycling specific shaped beam from its 2, calibrated to cross, LEDs.
Properly aimed to shine down the road, not up into others eyes, it follows the "see the lighting not the light" idea.
#71
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This reminds me of an architectural notion about landscape lighting: See the lighting, not the light.
My Cygolite MightyCross has a cycling specific shaped beam from its 2, calibrated to cross, LEDs.
Properly aimed to shine down the road, not up into others eyes, it follows the "see the lighting not the light" idea.
My Cygolite MightyCross has a cycling specific shaped beam from its 2, calibrated to cross, LEDs.
Properly aimed to shine down the road, not up into others eyes, it follows the "see the lighting not the light" idea.
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here's wishing you the serenity to accept the things you cannot change; courage to change the things you can; and wisdom to know the difference
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Yes again, but modern LED technology saddled with 1890s reflector technology. Just imagine what a modern LED could do with a modern reflector... Oh yeah we already have that, modern shaped headlight beams! Maybe we should all use them...
Last edited by dwmckee; 11-23-14 at 09:36 PM.
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I agree with the OP. I wish there were some good ~$100 lights with a decent beam cutoff. I run a Lezyne Super Drive XL and it's way too blinding to oncomers on high. I turn down to low and/or angle it way down as much as I can. But there are times when I need all of the lumens to see what's in front of me. This time of year means I have to ride in the dark or not ride at all during the week.
To think there are bike lights that basically have the same beam pattern and output of an HID or LED car headlight on high beam is crazy.
To think there are bike lights that basically have the same beam pattern and output of an HID or LED car headlight on high beam is crazy.