Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Fifty Plus (50+)
Reload this Page >

General Relativity and Biker395's Law of Stop Sign Gravity

Notices
Fifty Plus (50+) Share the victories, challenges, successes and special concerns of bicyclists 50 and older. Especially useful for those entering or reentering bicycling.

General Relativity and Biker395's Law of Stop Sign Gravity

Old 04-02-15, 09:39 AM
  #1  
Seat Sniffer
Thread Starter
 
Biker395's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,615

Bikes: Serotta Legend Ti; 2006 Schwinn Fastback Pro and 1996 Colnago Decor Super C96; 2003 Univega Alpina 700; 2000 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 1,966 Times in 561 Posts
General Relativity and Biker395's Law of Stop Sign Gravity

So this is interesting.

I make a habit of stopping at stop signs. There are lots of reasons. First, it's the law. Second, if I am to occasionally act like a vehicle and take the lane for safety reasons, I think I have an obligation to act like a vehicle at stop signs. Third, and perhaps most importantly, I don't trust myself. Stopping at stop signs means that if I'm mistaken about a car coming, there is at least a hope that someone else is paying attention and my life will be saved in spite of myself. Frankly, I don't trust my decision making to be mistake-proof, and I'd rather not suffer the ultimate price for one if I can help it. A great side benefit is that I actually get more respect from motorists when I stop, strangely enough.

I commute down a street for a couple of miles or so near the beach that has a 4-way stop every couple of blocks or so. And I stop at every stop sign. Frankly, almost no one else does. There are often many people heading to ride out on the peninsula (behind me), and I almost NEVER see any of them stop.

And every other morning or so, I can see another commuter behind me. And even far away, I can see them blow through every single stop sign, not even slowing down. Every time they do that, they pick up 50-75 yards on me, and of course, they eventually catch me.

The funny thing is this ... when they DO catch me, they invariably stop at the stop signs that I stop at. Eventually, I make my left turn and off they go ... rolling the first stop sign, then completely blowing through the others.

So whassup with that? Are they inspired by my good example, embarrassed by their bad example, or just want to make it look like they caught me so quickly without running stop signs?
__________________
Proud parent of a happy inner child ...

Biker395 is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 11:47 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
digibud's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Further North than U
Posts: 2,000

Bikes: Spec Roubaix, three Fisher Montare, two Pugs

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
People are inherently social and highly affected by the actions of others around them. I'll be that kind of behavior is entirely unconscious in most instances.
digibud is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 11:52 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Middelbury, Vermont
Posts: 1,105

Bikes: Giant Escape 1

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 136 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times in 2 Posts
In Idaho, bikes are legally allowed to treat stop signs as yield signs - slow down, stop if there is traffic, but roll through if it's clear. Would reasons 2 and 3 compel you to stop at stop signs in Idaho? Not judging, just curious.
practical is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 12:12 PM
  #4  
Seat Sniffer
Thread Starter
 
Biker395's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,615

Bikes: Serotta Legend Ti; 2006 Schwinn Fastback Pro and 1996 Colnago Decor Super C96; 2003 Univega Alpina 700; 2000 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 1,966 Times in 561 Posts
Originally Posted by practical
In Idaho, bikes are legally allowed to treat stop signs as yield signs - slow down, stop if there is traffic, but roll through if it's clear. Would reasons 2 and 3 compel you to stop at stop signs in Idaho? Not judging, just curious.
Good question! I'm aware of that exception in Idaho, and have always thought it interesting. There IS a difference between a bike and a car coming to a stop at a stop sign, as our outward visibility is typically much better and we can also rely on auditory clues.

To me honest, I'm not sure. I think it would depend on the context. Those particular stop signs I was referring to? I would definitely stop at them. Too many motorists running stop signs in my hood. On the other hand, one out in the middle of nowhere with near infinite visibility in all directions would probably be a different story.
__________________
Proud parent of a happy inner child ...

Biker395 is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 03:37 PM
  #5  
feros ferio
 
John E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
Posts: 21,764

Bikes: 1959 Capo Modell Campagnolo; 1960 Capo Sieger (2); 1962 Carlton Franco Suisse; 1970 Peugeot UO-8; 1982 Bianchi Campione d'Italia; 1988 Schwinn Project KOM-10;

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1384 Post(s)
Liked 1,293 Times in 819 Posts
Coming to a full stop is fine, but I draw the line at having to put a foot down, unless I need to wait for cross traffic.
__________________
"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
Capo: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger (2), S/N 42624, 42597
Carlton: 1962 Franco Suisse, S/N K7911
Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
Bianchi: 1982 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069
John E is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 04:00 PM
  #6  
Seat Sniffer
Thread Starter
 
Biker395's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,615

Bikes: Serotta Legend Ti; 2006 Schwinn Fastback Pro and 1996 Colnago Decor Super C96; 2003 Univega Alpina 700; 2000 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 1,966 Times in 561 Posts
Originally Posted by John E
Coming to a full stop is fine, but I draw the line at having to put a foot down, unless I need to wait for cross traffic.
I generally don't put a foot down, either. The exceptions are (1) when I have to wait for cross traffic, or (2) the motorist coming the other way is waving me through, and I want to make it clear that I want them to go first (I put a foot down and wave them through).
__________________
Proud parent of a happy inner child ...

Biker395 is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 04:26 PM
  #7  
 
BigAura's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chapin, SC
Posts: 3,423

Bikes: all steel stable: surly world troller, paris sport fixed, fuji ss

Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked 55 Times in 33 Posts
I realize what the law says but the majority motor vehicles don't treat bicycles as vehicles so the law is a defacto guideline. I aways ride defensively! I stop at stop signs when I feel it makes sense.

Last edited by BigAura; 04-02-15 at 04:32 PM.
BigAura is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 07:30 PM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
h2oxtc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Okanagan, BC
Posts: 1,285

Bikes: Cannondale Caad 8; Jamis Aurora Elite, Kona Disc road bike, Rocky Mntn Equipe, Apollo Imperial, KHS Aero Comp SS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 13 Posts
I plead the 5th.
h2oxtc is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 07:47 PM
  #9  
Member
 
thebird55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Warner Robins, GA
Posts: 31

Bikes: Gravity Dutch hybrid, upgraded to 24 speed. Panniers, fenders... the whole shootin' match.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Biker395
I generally don't put a foot down, either. The exceptions are (1) when I have to wait for cross traffic, or (2) the motorist coming the other way is waving me through, and I want to make it clear that I want them to go first (I put a foot down and wave them through).
You just touched on a peeve of mine. Don't give me special treatment. If you have the right of way, take it. I usually time my stop to make sure they stop first, and that means they now have the right of way. One should never try give that right to the other vehicle. It causes confusion all around. Confusion causes accidents. (And, in my case, ill temper.) If they waive me through, the foot goes down (in an exaggerated manner) and I wave them through.

I file this peeve right next to the one about motorists that won't go ahead a pass me when they can, even if they are just being gracious. I do not need them driving behind me, especially when it's backing up traffic.
thebird55 is offline  
Old 04-02-15, 08:06 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 2,403
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 358 Post(s)
Liked 48 Times in 35 Posts
Originally Posted by Biker395
So whassup with that? Are they inspired by my good example, embarrassed by their bad example, or just want to make it look like they caught me so quickly without running stop signs?
Inspired by your good example and some comaraderie so they'll not be the only people obeying the law.
CrankyOne is offline  
Old 04-03-15, 05:32 AM
  #11  
dbg
Si Senior
 
dbg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Naperville, Illinois
Posts: 2,669

Bikes: Too Numerous (not)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 23 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 10 Times in 8 Posts
When no other traffic exists I have observed that cars seldom ever completely stop also. My commute to the train includes a heavy bike and backpack, -- and I'm looking to not get sweaty. So I ride at a very leisurely pace (in the morning). It's just over two miles through residential areas with lot of stop signs. Cars approaching a stop sign with me will slow to about my speed and then accelerate through. It sort of appears they have stopped but all they really did was slow to my speed. This helps me to justify not fully stopping (or even slowing down significantly) at absent stop signs.
dbg is offline  
Old 04-03-15, 07:00 AM
  #12  
Semper Fi
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 12,942
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1172 Post(s)
Liked 358 Times in 241 Posts
I choose to stop at the signs, just how I'm wired (or weird, take your pick,) if its clear I'll do the track stand, with a complete stop, then proceed. If there is traffic, foot goes down, I'm not real safe on long term balance issues now, with PD. I tend to wave cars through, its easier to give them the go ahead than it is to have confusion about right-of-way. Too many motorist don't seem to have a grasp of what right-of-way is these days. I won't argue with a 2-ton steel monster, its a lose situation every time for the cyclist. (Been hit twice, once as a pedsetrian, once as a cyclist, I was in the right both times, didn't help me one bit)

Bill
__________________
Semper Fi, USMC, 1975-1977

I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13


qcpmsame is offline  
Old 04-03-15, 07:07 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
bransom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis area
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
For me, it depends. If no cars are visible in any direction (rare), I'll blow the stop sign. If there are cars visible but not right at the intersection, I'll stop briefly (no foot down) then move through. If cars are at the intersection, I do a full stop with foot down and make sure I have the other drivers' attention before moving through.
bransom is offline  
Old 04-03-15, 07:09 AM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
wphamilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280

Bikes: Nashbar Road

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times in 228 Posts
You probably looked like an expert bicycle commuter so they wanted to impress you.
wphamilton is offline  
Old 04-03-15, 07:31 AM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
tigat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Colorado
Posts: 557

Bikes: 2021 Trek Checkpoint SL (GRX Di2), 2020 Domane SLR 9 (very green), 2016 Trek Emonda SL, 2009 Bianchi 928, 1972 Atala Record Pro

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 85 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 143 Times in 55 Posts
Yet another reason many of us want to be you Vic (fifty plussers--see the recent I'll Fly Away thread if you don't get the reference). Your grown up behavior casts a good light on the biking community and enhances our relationship with the cars and their drivers.

Personally, I come to every controlled intersection with my hand on the brake lever ready to stop. If it's empty, I ramp down to about a nanosecond's worth of track stand, likely undetectable without slow motion capture. If it has cars, I try to make eye contact. Most of the time, the driver will waive me through, in which case I'll blow by the sign. If someone, say a police officer for instance, ever challenged me on this, I'd probably play the crippled card, and point out how difficult it is to constantly stop and launch with one hand. Truth be told, it's not that hard, and if I can't follow the rules, I shouldn't be out on the road.

One exception: your reference to the fact that your good behavior momentarily inspires the same in others. For me, it's embarrassment. I don't want a fellow biker to yell at me.
tigat is offline  
Old 04-03-15, 12:50 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
 
h2oxtc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Okanagan, BC
Posts: 1,285

Bikes: Cannondale Caad 8; Jamis Aurora Elite, Kona Disc road bike, Rocky Mntn Equipe, Apollo Imperial, KHS Aero Comp SS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 13 Posts
Is the topic of discussion i) cyclists stopping at stop signs, or ii) the behavior of cyclists when riding with one or more other cyclists?

Re i) I wouldn't argue with any of the reasons or discussion above, for or against. I think the interaction of cyclists with motorists is a complex subject, worthy of both principled and situational decision making.

Re ii) Riding with other cyclists particularly if you don't know them or their riding style, can be more dangerous than not stopping at stop signs. In these situations my cycling behavior will change. If the other cyclist stops, I stop. If the other cyclist rides thru, I'll ride thru (cautiously) and then decide whether to carry on riding with this person or not.

@Biker395, I commend you on your commitment to stopping.
h2oxtc is offline  
Old 04-04-15, 09:29 PM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
What Vic is doing is out of the ordinary (at least it is these days). That gets the attention of the riders who overtake him and they may start to wonder if they are missing something (like maybe Vic is a cop). Just in case, they likely then decide to play along until things return to normal (they're on their own).

That's just my wild guess. Once again, we need to check in with the NSA and find out exactly what the other riders are thinking.
B. Carfree is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 07:55 AM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
climberguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: central ohio
Posts: 348

Bikes: better than I deserve

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Some people only wash their hands in the men's room if they see others in the room doing so.
climberguy is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 08:30 AM
  #19  
just keep riding
 
BluesDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Milledgeville, Georgia
Posts: 13,560

Bikes: 2018 Black Mountain Cycles MCD,2017 Advocate Cycles Seldom Seen Drop Bar, 2017 Niner Jet 9 Alloy, 2015 Zukas custom road, 2003 KHS Milano Tandem, 1986 Nishiki Cadence rigid MTB, 1980ish Fuji S-12S

Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 173 Post(s)
Liked 33 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by practical
In Idaho, bikes are legally allowed to treat stop signs as yield signs - slow down, stop if there is traffic, but roll through if it's clear...
I tend to ride like I'm in my own private Idaho.
BluesDawg is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 08:31 AM
  #20  
aka Phil Jungels
 
Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: North Aurora, IL
Posts: 8,234

Bikes: 08 Specialized Crosstrail Sport, 05 Sirrus Comp

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 60 Posts
I always look at it as a chance to practice track stands.
Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 08:34 AM
  #21  
Senior Member
 
Looigi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 8,951
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 14 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 13 Times in 12 Posts
I make a rule of trying not to get hit by cars. Sometimes that involves stopping at stop signs, but often not.
Looigi is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 02:33 PM
  #22  
Seat Sniffer
Thread Starter
 
Biker395's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,615

Bikes: Serotta Legend Ti; 2006 Schwinn Fastback Pro and 1996 Colnago Decor Super C96; 2003 Univega Alpina 700; 2000 Schwinn Super Sport

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 937 Post(s)
Liked 1,966 Times in 561 Posts
Lol ... some of these comments are a hoot.

I just thought of another possibility I hadn't considered.

What do you do when you come upon a car, sitting still at a two-lane intersection even after the light has turned green? Well, in my teens, I would have blasted on by. I now know better ... there is probably a good reason that car is sitting there (ambulance coming, slow pedestrian, animal ... any number of things), and the best thing to do is proceed with caution.

So I think they might just be slowing down not because they are inspired, ashamed, or otherwise. Likely because they figure if I'm stopping, there must be a good reason ... as in someone is coming.

Epiphany: I'm probably pissing people off!
__________________
Proud parent of a happy inner child ...

Biker395 is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 06:08 PM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
h2oxtc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Okanagan, BC
Posts: 1,285

Bikes: Cannondale Caad 8; Jamis Aurora Elite, Kona Disc road bike, Rocky Mntn Equipe, Apollo Imperial, KHS Aero Comp SS

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked 22 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by Biker395
Lol ... some of these comments are a hoot.

What do you do when you come upon a car, sitting still at a two-lane intersection even after the light has turned green? ... there is probably a good reason that car is sitting there (ambulance coming, slow pedestrian, animal ... any number of things), and the best thing to do is proceed with caution.

... or maybe texting? I had that experience last summer with a car stopped in front of me at a green light, so I cautiously passed on the left (no bike lane) just in time for them to realize that the light was green and decide to hammer it, with a cyclist right in front. Don't know if I would do that again. If I had an air horn mounted on the front of my bike - I know what I'd do then.

PS Just about every stop sign I've encountered cycling this weekend, a little "angel" shows up on my shoulder with the nickname Biker395.
h2oxtc is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 07:01 PM
  #24  
Trek 500 Kid
 
Zinger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Spokane WA
Posts: 2,565

Bikes: '83 Trek 970 road --- '86 Trek 500 road

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2904 Post(s)
Liked 380 Times in 305 Posts
Biker 395, I'd just say they are marking you.
Zinger is offline  
Old 04-05-15, 10:21 PM
  #25  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eugene, Oregon
Posts: 7,048
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 509 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Originally Posted by Biker395

What do you do when you come upon a car, sitting still at a two-lane intersection even after the light has turned green? Well, in my teens, I would have blasted on by. I now know better ... there is probably a good reason that car is sitting there (ambulance coming, slow pedestrian, animal ... any number of things), and the best thing to do is proceed with caution.
Maybe my father-in-law is driving that car. He and his wife went out to a flea market and on the way home "woke up" at an intersection. They had both fallen asleep while the light was red and didn't know how many cycles they had slept through.
B. Carfree is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.