Carbonfiberboy 

I guess the OP's question is: Does a High Sodium Diet Inhibit Endurance Performance and Health?
and here's the answer:
Does a High Sodium Diet Inhibit Endurance Performance and Health? | Hammer Nutrition

bikepro

The latest says it's more important to maintain the proper sodium to potassium ratio. Here's a sample of the numerous articles on the web:

Why Your Sodium-Potassium Ratio Is So Important

bikepro

I admit to not reading this article, however, I tend to take "with a grain of salt" (pun intended), health related articles written by industry folks with an ax to grind. Even though their information may be perfectly sound, I'd rather take medical advice from people in the medical field.

Carbonfiberboy 

Totally right. Those in the medical field have no axe to grind.

rydabent

I ride bents with web seat backs. They get white with salt, and so does the strapes on my helmet. You dont have to be a rocket scientist to understand cyclist lose a lot of salt thru sweating.

BTW actually horses sweat, men prespire, and ladies glow. However I have met a few ladies that glowed like a horse!!!!

JohnDThompson 

Your kidneys can selectively eliminate or retain sodium and potassium ions largely independent of the serum levels of these ions. Urine osmolality is probably a better indicator of a serum electrolyte imbalance.

bikepro

No argument, but you just have to choose your poison. Seriously, you need to research as many sources as you can find. But, I still put commercial sources at the bottom of my credibility list.

scott967

When I was a kid in the 60's salt was a big deal. They passed out salt pills like candy for exercise. Then at some point they decided that was all BS and just take water. They seem to go back and forth on it.

scott s.
.

Carbonfiberboy 

Hammer is, IMO, quite different. They do their research and list the studies they used to come to their conclusions. Most of their work, like the article you didn't read, do not attempt to sell product. They just say, this is the science, this is how we addressed that science in our products. As we all see on BF, many products and foods fill the same needs as the Hammer products. In choosing a nutritional approach to problem solving however, we need to know the science.

I'm not a big customer of theirs. I go through about 1-1/2 bottles of Endurolytes and 1 can of HEED per year. That said, I learned how to fuel by reading everything on their site. IME everything they say to do works, whether one uses their products or not.

MinnMan

It's an interesting article but the conclusions are more inferential than deductive. It says that high salt intake correlates with hypertension. It also says that high blood pressure can reduce athletic performance. But, as already discussed in this thread, not everybody with high salt intake necessarily has hypertension. So the takeaway seems to be what most people already know - we should all be aware of our blood pressure, and if we have a tendency towards hypertension, should watch our salt intake. What remains less clear, though there are some guidelines is how an endurance athlete should balance the demands of maintaining sufficient sodium intake required to ward off hyponotremia and avoiding too much salt if they are at the same time prone to hypertension.

CliffordK

Gatorade has about 110mg of sodium per 8 oz.

So, if you drink 32 oz (1 qt), one would get about 440 mg sodium, or just under the equivalent of 1/4 tsp (575 mg).

The RDA for salt is "less than 1500 mg". I suppose that would be quite a bit of Gatorade.

79pmooney

Many years ago I read a long out of print publication that suggested that our bodies need a set amount of sodium for many bodily functions to operate, that it is essentially a tool in the process and not expended by the process. Too much or too little throws things off. The body cannot rectify too little, but it can rectify too much by adding sodium to our urine and sweat. The problem is this a crude process. The body doesn't have a real time salt "thermometer". Instead, it just learns to put x% salt in each liter of urine and sweat, all the time.

People who consume a lot of salt will therefore have sweat that is very salty. Those who not will have very low salt sweat. (People have lived for centuries in some very hot places where salt was very expensive. They don't eat much sodium at all and do just fine. Westerners visit them and have real issues.)

On this information, I radically lowered my salt intake in my racing days as a full lifestyle change. And my sweat got far less salty. My dirty cycling clothes were not salty. The sweat in my eyes did not sting. And I needed to consume far less sodium in races, even on very hot days. (I raced in New England where hot and humid can happen.) I still had to take in potassium on hot days. That is a different mechanism and cannot be trained. But ever since I have been a firm believer that sodium is something we have full control over. And as a society, we have chosen to have sweat as salt intensive as possible.

(I grew up hearing about and witnessing the other extreme. Many times my dad told the story of being in the army, WW2, in Texas, marching in very hot weather. They ate a very high salt diet. Spam, salted everything, etc. They were ordered to take salt pills before and during marches. My dad liked telling of the salt appearing on the jersey of the man in front of him while they marched. Those who did not take their salt pills, passed out, were picked up by the following wagon then injected and fed salt. Unpleasant enough that they did not miss another salt pill.)

Now, long after my racing days ended, I eat more salt but still rarely pick up a salt shaker, don't eat a lot of processed foods and look at labels. Drinking WBs filled with Vitalyte gives me plenty on the hottest days.

Ben

EastCoastDHer

"If I think of all the crap I learned in school it's a wonder I can even think at all..."
(Or so the song goes)

When I was 28 I was in decent shape, working out an hour each night. I sold Harleys and quickly became the designated delivery and pick up driver - I don't know why but they picked the smallest guy (I'm 5'5) to move the biggest bikes (up to 500 lbs plus). I walked to the top of the stairs at my apartment one night and realized I was gasping for air. I made a choice that night to cut out salt. 2 weeks later I felt much better and wasn't out of breathe. I also wasn't as agitated or nervous about small things which would usually get my blood pressure up.
I'm no expert but from my own personal experiences too much salt doesn't work in my favor.

I saw my naturopath last year and got blood work for a number of reasons. Salt wasn't an issue (however my magnesium was extremely low due to working in the dirt and sweating alot).

Carbonfiberboy 

The Hammer motto is "Less is more." # 37 is a good post on that subject. Research has it that ~1500mg/day is the sweet spot. It's a U-shaped curve. Poorer health is associated with both lower and higher intakes. IIRC ~1000mg is the lower limit and ~3000mg the upper. As Mooney points out, if your salt intake is habitually lower, you'll need less salt on race day and be less concerned about electrolyte intake.

My practice for balancing electrolyte intake is to be sure I can pee every 2-3 hours. If I'm short on pee, I increase the electrolytes, which stimulate thirst which increases water consumption, which makes me pee more. Thirst is a reliable indicator of water/electrolyte balance. Not much else is. Of course when climbing hard in the heat, its impossible to drink enough to keep up with losses. But being thirsty then is a good thing.

CliffordK

Your sweat is supposed to be hypotonic. I.E. Less salt in the sweat than in the blood. The reason it seems salty is that as the water evaporates, the salt residue is left behind.

I'm not sure if there is any regulation of the amount of salt in the sweat. Perhaps some regulation in number of ion pumps actively reclaiming salt from the water before sweating, but I could imagine that regulation would be extremely slow. Or, perhaps it is simply a difference between the serum salt and the sweat salt content, so higher serum salt content would contribute to saltier sweat.

pdlamb

I just scanned the Hammer article, and what caught my eye was in the last paragraph: "It only takes a few hundred milligrams every 15-20 minutes in the hottest environment to sustain aerobic pace." So after nice four hour weekend ride, I may need 4,000 mg of salt!? That sounds like Hammer's pretty firmly in the pro-salt camp, only they'd prefer I buy their expensive pills instead of shaking a salt shaker.

Just as an aside, those terrible salt pills you have to ask a pharmacist to buy cost about $3 for 100 pills, and each pill has the equivalent of four or five wonderful "electrolyte" pills that cost 5-6X as much, but at least you can find the wonder pills on the open shelves in your LBS or running store.

MinnMan

There are other issues - pure NaCL vs. balanced (K, Ca, Mg) electrolytes. Not that that justifies the huge cost increase and maybe those other electrolytes are less important for.... (for example, muscle cramps) than has at times been portrayed.

Carbonfiberboy 

https://www.ultracycling.com/section...ectrolytes.php

IIRC, Hammer recommends replacing about 1/2 of sodium losses during an event. One of the advantages of some of those electrolyte pills is the small amount of each electrolyte/pill. Standard Endurolytes are 80 mg sodium/cap. On long rides in the 70's, I usually take ~1/hr; in the 80's and above, 2/hr. I've never taken more than 2/hr., though on this last RAMROD I probably should have. Endurolytes Extreme are 120 mg sodium/cap. Saltsticks are 215 mg sodium/cap. I've seen people barf from using salt tabs. Barfing and diarrhea are the worst possible things in the heat.

One of the things I run across on hot events is folks who can't eat. Not being able to eat can mean a DNF and is a sign of being low on sodium. 2 Endurolytes with water will usually fix them right up.

CliffordK

Interesting thought. Our "table salt" is almost pure sodium chloride, with a little bit of sodium iodide mixed in. But we really need a variety of minerals, most of which one can get from the diet. I've been taking calcium supplements for years. Now I hear that cyclists often have osteopenia so calcium supplements may be beneficial for cycling too.

Even the salt and mineral blocks we give to our pets and livestock contain a variety of minerals rather than just pure sodium chloride like we tend to get.

MarkND

When I first saw the title of your post and your name, I thought the topic was going to be about winter cycling and the excessive road salt they use in Minnesota.

Mark

MinnMan

It could well have been! I just take for granted that parts on my winter bike are going to rust. There is a time of year during which my good bike won't be used, even if the road is free of ice and snow.

DropBarFan

Vigorous exercise in warm weather helps sweat out waste products but that's, IMHO, no reason to assume high salt intake is OK. Sweating only gets rid of a portion, rest of salt etc stays in the body & helps keep system puffed up with excess water weight. I don't buy the concept that sodium lost thru sweating needs to be replaced. Sometimes on rides I'll drink CytoMax which has some electrolytes but I rely on it more for the carb/sugar boost to avoid "bonk".

I like occasional pickles/bacon/potato chips but would be best to do without. Low-salt home-made food is best.

Dave Cutter

And what is it we do when we assume? Never underestimate your ability out-train your diet.... or to harm yourself with bad habits. There may be worse habits than salty snacks... but no bad habit that you don't practice will harm you. It seems to me that sodium levels are part of my annual check-up blood tests.

MinnMan

patronizing much?

Hard to parse. As written it seems to imply that the training trumps the diet, which of course, was the initial assumption, though I think you mean the opposite - that a poor diet is not overcome by training.

The use of "bad" here is an assumption in this case.

If by "salty snacks" you mean things like potato chips, then you are mistaken. I seldom if ever indulge in the like.

Thanks for your insight, anyway.

pressed001

Check it out man. I posted a plethora of info on this subject in another thread:

https://www.bikeforums.net/long-dista...ong-rides.html