Highway riding days are over.
08-08-16, 04:41 PM
#51
OM boy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,369
Bikes: a bunch
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 517 Post(s)
Liked 644 Times
in
438 Posts
you think the roads are dangerous - there is NOTHING more dangerous than riding thru UCSB on the MUP when the evil spawn are in session... I have my war stories...
yes, your children are all wonderful humans, but not these here in IV... ;-|
if I hear 'my bad' one more time, I will go postal !!!
yes, your children are all wonderful humans, but not these here in IV... ;-|
if I hear 'my bad' one more time, I will go postal !!!
08-08-16, 05:05 PM
#52
U.I.O.G.D.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Eastern Townships, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 172
Bikes: Bassi Hog's Back gravel/bikepacking, Bombtrack Hook 2 gravel, Marinoni Genius/Campy Record, Marinoni Special EL-OS/Campy Record (retired to permanent indoor trainer), Rocky Mountain hybrid, Rocky Mountain mtb Cervelo R3 Team/Campy Chorus FOR SALE
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked 56 Times
in
17 Posts
I just got back from a 2-week vacation in the UK. We didn't ride there, instead we hiked, but I did log over 3000 km driving there. The last week was spent on the Isle of Skye where roads are narrow, have no shoulder, and have a 60 mph speed limit. There is absolutely no margin for error, whether driving or cycling. At best you have maybe 6 inches to a foot clearance the inside of each line and NO shoulders, hard or otherwise, and hard hedges in many places (hedges hiding a stone wall). Traffic density in summer is very high. And yet these roads are used extensively by cyclists. We lost count of the number of touring and road bikes we saw on the road. However the big difference was the degree of respect and deference shown to cyclists. If a car following a cyclist didn't have a clear oncoming lane to pass, the driver would remain well behind the cyclist. Then when the oncoming lane was clear for a sufficient distance, the car would signal, move over until at least half into the other lane, and safely overtake the cyclist. Each vehicle in turn would do the same when they had the opportunity to overtake.
I find the level of driver discipline and cooperation much higher there than here in Quebec where the sum total of cooperative and disciplined drivers is exactly zero. The nature of the roads there mean that cooperation between all road users is a matter of survival, not only courtesy, though drivers are invariably courteous. When you wave or flash someone through at a passing place on a single-track road, you *always* receive a thank you wave. Same with cyclists! It is such a pleasure to drive there (and loads of fun, we rented a VW Golf TDI diesel with manual transmission that had to be shifted with the left hand).
My son lived in Edinburgh for a year while doing his master's degree there, and toured extensively and safely on his bike.
We are spoiled here by too much room on our roads. Couple that with selfish individualism and the result is very sloppy drivers.
I find the level of driver discipline and cooperation much higher there than here in Quebec where the sum total of cooperative and disciplined drivers is exactly zero. The nature of the roads there mean that cooperation between all road users is a matter of survival, not only courtesy, though drivers are invariably courteous. When you wave or flash someone through at a passing place on a single-track road, you *always* receive a thank you wave. Same with cyclists! It is such a pleasure to drive there (and loads of fun, we rented a VW Golf TDI diesel with manual transmission that had to be shifted with the left hand).
My son lived in Edinburgh for a year while doing his master's degree there, and toured extensively and safely on his bike.
We are spoiled here by too much room on our roads. Couple that with selfish individualism and the result is very sloppy drivers.
08-09-16, 05:25 AM
#53
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: northern michigan
Posts: 13,317
Bikes: '77 Colnago Super, '76 Fuji The Finest, '88 Cannondale Criterium, '86 Trek 760, '87 Miyata 712
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Liked 595 Times
in
313 Posts
There was another fatality in our area last Sunday morning. A falling-down drunk 66yr old DOA'd a 61yr old female. She was riding well to the right on paved road. Witnesses say the driver was all over the road and couldnt walk straight, stumbling and falling during roadside sobriety tests.
08-09-16, 06:33 AM
#54
Other Worldly Member
Join Date: May 2012
Location: The old Northwest Coast.
Posts: 1,540
Bikes: 1973 Motobecane Grand Jubilee, 1981 Centurion Super LeMans, 2010 Gary Fisher Wahoo, 2003 Colnago Dream Lux, 2014 Giant Defy 1, 2015 Framed Bikes Minnesota 3.0, several older family Treks
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 194 Post(s)
Liked 136 Times
in
53 Posts
The statistics: Pedestrian & Bicycle Information Center
Cycling on MUPs has a higher rate of injury crashes than does cycling on roads. However fatalities are lower on MUPs than on roads.
OTOH, ~30,000 people die in their cars every year in the US. ~610,000 people in the US die every year from heart disease.
I have a simple maxim: I will not live in fear.
Cycling on MUPs has a higher rate of injury crashes than does cycling on roads. However fatalities are lower on MUPs than on roads.
OTOH, ~30,000 people die in their cars every year in the US. ~610,000 people in the US die every year from heart disease.
I have a simple maxim: I will not live in fear.
__________________
Make ******* Grate Cheese Again
Make ******* Grate Cheese Again
08-09-16, 07:19 AM
#55
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Middle Earth (aka IA)
Posts: 20,435
Bikes: A bunch of old bikes and a few new ones
Mentioned: 178 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5888 Post(s)
Liked 3,471 Times
in
2,079 Posts
I feel fortunate to have a first rate set of MUPs near my home that see little use. I see few people out on my daily rides.
08-09-16, 08:08 AM
#56
don't try this at home.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N. KY
Posts: 5,940
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 974 Post(s)
Liked 512 Times
in
352 Posts
I'm fortunate to have good access to hundreds of miles of rural 2 lane roads. The problem is most have no shoulder, I try to stay close to the white line and if I can hear a car coming, get even closer. 2 riskier situations. Oncoming car and car in your lane pass at the same time you are there. Driver in your lane doesn't have room to move over. Other problem is you hear a car behind you, he passes, and you relax a bit and maybe move over, but 2nd car is coming and 2nd car may not have seen you because of 1st car in front of him.
Most of my roads are windy and my philosophy is the driver has to pay attention to staying on the road and would have difficulty texting, although I don't deny many try. I feel most uncomfortable going through traffic light intersections, esp where I have to turn and esp if they are 4 lane. Too much going on, I'm extra careful. I don't bother with mirrors anymore, because I figure there is not much more I can do but stay to the right as far as possible.
I try to get out as early as possible for most of my miles, before 6am is good. Huge difference between 6am and 5pm with traffic. Sunday early am's are the absolute best! I spend time in laying out all my routes beforehand, always trying to find least trafficked routes, which I am lucky to have many miles of. And I'm not afraid to put bike on rack and drive up to about 20 minutes to start.
Most of my roads are windy and my philosophy is the driver has to pay attention to staying on the road and would have difficulty texting, although I don't deny many try. I feel most uncomfortable going through traffic light intersections, esp where I have to turn and esp if they are 4 lane. Too much going on, I'm extra careful. I don't bother with mirrors anymore, because I figure there is not much more I can do but stay to the right as far as possible.
I try to get out as early as possible for most of my miles, before 6am is good. Huge difference between 6am and 5pm with traffic. Sunday early am's are the absolute best! I spend time in laying out all my routes beforehand, always trying to find least trafficked routes, which I am lucky to have many miles of. And I'm not afraid to put bike on rack and drive up to about 20 minutes to start.
A mirror and a bright blinky taillight would really help you. Helmet or eyeglass mirrors are way more effective for these situations listed below. You can sweep the whole area behind you with a small turn of your head, and see everything clearly.
I often don't hear cars at all, the wind noise in my ears is too loud.
Lane position
I usually ride in the right wheel track on two lane roads:
Cars can't squeeze through, and have to cross the center line.
Any glass or other sharp stuff is kicked to the side of the road by the car tires.
There's more broken pavement at the edge of the road.
My habit is to check the mirror when there's an oncoming car. If the road behind is clear, I'm all set. If a car is also behind me, I want to deal with the two cars meeting near where I'm riding. I might move off the road if possible--rare, or move more to the center to "block" the car behind. I'll move back over to the right and wave a "thank you" when the oncoming lane is clear.
If I see a car behind, and it's not moving over, I do the "wobbly rider" thing, a couple of short swerves. That usually works to move them farther over.
Hilly, twisty roads
Cars won't see me until the last second as they come around the turn behind me. So I'm over closer to the center line so cars can see me sooner, and listening for cars. I'll move right as soon as I see the driver in my mirror.
Left turns
A mirror makes it way easier to manage left turns. I can slow and wait for a gap in traffic, then move over.
Day time blinky
Texting drivers will have to look at the road occasionally... So a blinky can get their attention when they are quite far back. It gives normal drivers a heads up, too. And it's effective when riding through woods, with patches of sunlight and shade.The $25 bright blinkies are visible far down the road, even at noon on a sunny day.
Where to go ride
I use the Strava Heat Map to check out popular biking roads. It's based on a year of strava GPS uploads. Most popular are dark red, somewhat popular are blue. And very light blue roads near a lot of red roads are a good indication to avoid that blue road. (Of course, roads way out of town are lighter blue, since there's a lot fewer riders out there. So compare colors on roads nearby.)
Heat Map link. Click "Toggle Labels" on the left side to see road and town names. The URL changes as you pan and zoom, so you can bookmark your local map.
Strava Route Builder is based on the heat maps, and will route away from a direct route if there's a better alternative way. I like it. You need a free strava account to use it.
Last edited by rm -rf; 08-09-16 at 08:19 AM.
08-09-16, 08:32 AM
#57
Seat Sniffer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 5,630
Bikes: Serotta Legend Ti; 2006 Schwinn Fastback Pro and 1996 Colnago Decor Super C96; 2003 Univega Alpina 700; 2000 Schwinn Super Sport
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 945 Post(s)
Liked 1,986 Times
in
569 Posts
I think hugging the edge of the road is more dangerous.
A mirror and a bright blinky taillight would really help you. Helmet or eyeglass mirrors are way more effective for these situations listed below. You can sweep the whole area behind you with a small turn of your head, and see everything clearly.
I often don't hear cars at all, the wind noise in my ears is too loud.
Lane position
I usually ride in the right wheel track on two lane roads:
Cars can't squeeze through, and have to cross the center line.
Any glass or other sharp stuff is kicked to the side of the road by the car tires.
There's more broken pavement at the edge of the road.
My habit is to check the mirror when there's an oncoming car. If the road behind is clear, I'm all set. If a car is also behind me, I want to deal with the two cars meeting near where I'm riding. I might move off the road if possible--rare, or move more to the center to "block" the car behind. I'll move back over to the right and wave a "thank you" when the oncoming lane is clear.
If I see a car behind, and it's not moving over, I do the "wobbly rider" thing, a couple of short swerves. That usually works to move them farther over.
Hilly, twisty roads
Cars won't see me until the last second as they come around the turn behind me. So I'm over closer to the center line so cars can see me sooner, and listening for cars. I'll move right as soon as I see the driver in my mirror.
Left turns
A mirror makes it way easier to manage left turns. I can slow and wait for a gap in traffic, then move over.
Day time blinky
Texting drivers will have to look at the road occasionally... So a blinky can get their attention when they are quite far back. It gives normal drivers a heads up, too. And it's effective when riding through woods, with patches of sunlight and shade.The $25 bright blinkies are visible far down the road, even at noon on a sunny day.
Where to go ride
I use the Strava Heat Map to check out popular biking roads. It's based on a year of strava GPS uploads. Most popular are dark red, somewhat popular are blue. And very light blue roads near a lot of red roads are a good indication to avoid that blue road. (Of course, roads way out of town are lighter blue, since there's a lot fewer riders out there. So compare colors on roads nearby.)
Heat Map link. Click "Toggle Labels" on the left side to see road and town names. The URL changes as you pan and zoom, so you can bookmark your local map.
Strava Route Builder is based on the heat maps, and will route away from a direct route if there's a better alternative way. I like it. You need a free strava account to use it.
A mirror and a bright blinky taillight would really help you. Helmet or eyeglass mirrors are way more effective for these situations listed below. You can sweep the whole area behind you with a small turn of your head, and see everything clearly.
I often don't hear cars at all, the wind noise in my ears is too loud.
Lane position
I usually ride in the right wheel track on two lane roads:
Cars can't squeeze through, and have to cross the center line.
Any glass or other sharp stuff is kicked to the side of the road by the car tires.
There's more broken pavement at the edge of the road.
My habit is to check the mirror when there's an oncoming car. If the road behind is clear, I'm all set. If a car is also behind me, I want to deal with the two cars meeting near where I'm riding. I might move off the road if possible--rare, or move more to the center to "block" the car behind. I'll move back over to the right and wave a "thank you" when the oncoming lane is clear.
If I see a car behind, and it's not moving over, I do the "wobbly rider" thing, a couple of short swerves. That usually works to move them farther over.
Hilly, twisty roads
Cars won't see me until the last second as they come around the turn behind me. So I'm over closer to the center line so cars can see me sooner, and listening for cars. I'll move right as soon as I see the driver in my mirror.
Left turns
A mirror makes it way easier to manage left turns. I can slow and wait for a gap in traffic, then move over.
Day time blinky
Texting drivers will have to look at the road occasionally... So a blinky can get their attention when they are quite far back. It gives normal drivers a heads up, too. And it's effective when riding through woods, with patches of sunlight and shade.The $25 bright blinkies are visible far down the road, even at noon on a sunny day.
Where to go ride
I use the Strava Heat Map to check out popular biking roads. It's based on a year of strava GPS uploads. Most popular are dark red, somewhat popular are blue. And very light blue roads near a lot of red roads are a good indication to avoid that blue road. (Of course, roads way out of town are lighter blue, since there's a lot fewer riders out there. So compare colors on roads nearby.)
Heat Map link. Click "Toggle Labels" on the left side to see road and town names. The URL changes as you pan and zoom, so you can bookmark your local map.
Strava Route Builder is based on the heat maps, and will route away from a direct route if there's a better alternative way. I like it. You need a free strava account to use it.
Great advice. You ride like I do!
__________________
Proud parent of a happy inner child ...
Proud parent of a happy inner child ...
08-09-16, 09:13 AM
#58
NYC
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times
in
62 Posts
My wife and I have been considering this for a while now, and yesterday another cyclist died in our area, hit on a rural road. He was apparently not doing anything wrong, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. It seems that all I see anymore are people driving with their cellphone in their face. So, from now forward we will be taking advantage of our many cycling trails in our area. I guess it doesn't matter your right to use the road if you are dead.
Limit your concerns to things you can actually impact / affect. Your life will be less stressful about things you have no control over.
This election cycle is an excellent time to cut the cord. Two complete asshats and the media circus from hell. Nancy Reagan nailed it dead: Just say no!
(If you find it difficult to wean yourself from the "news" try reading a little Michael Crighton, like State of Fear or Airframe.)
08-10-16, 09:11 AM
#59
Senior Member
I just got back from a 2-week vacation in the UK. We didn't ride there, instead we hiked, but I did log over 3000 km driving there. The last week was spent on the Isle of Skye where roads are narrow, have no shoulder, and have a 60 mph speed limit. There is absolutely no margin for error, whether driving or cycling. At best you have maybe 6 inches to a foot clearance the inside of each line and NO shoulders, hard or otherwise, and hard hedges in many places (hedges hiding a stone wall). Traffic density in summer is very high. And yet these roads are used extensively by cyclists. We lost count of the number of touring and road bikes we saw on the road. However the big difference was the degree of respect and deference shown to cyclists. If a car following a cyclist didn't have a clear oncoming lane to pass, the driver would remain well behind the cyclist. Then when the oncoming lane was clear for a sufficient distance, the car would signal, move over until at least half into the other lane, and safely overtake the cyclist. Each vehicle in turn would do the same when they had the opportunity to overtake.
There is only limited difference in the drivers in the UK or on Skye vs US or elsewhere. My year is split between the US, UK, and NL so I've become quite familiar with all.
The difference is road design. As you pointed out, on roads outside of the US a driver is forced to pay very close attention to what they are doing lest they know they will become part of a twisted pile or wreckage. Roads outside the US 'feel' dangerous. The wide, flat, straight roads in the US tell drivers that paying attention isn't too critical. As well, places outside the US don't encourage disobedience so much as the US. The US makes extensive use of stop signs and other elements that are very routinely disobeyed. Stop signs are actually quite rare outside the US with sharks teeth and roundabouts used instead.
A Wink And A Nod?Teaching Our Kids To Be Criminals (Part I) | streets.mn
Fortunately it's easier to change how our roads are designed than the attitude of drivers.
08-10-16, 09:22 AM
#60
Senior Member
The US is the most dangerous country of all developed countries to ride a bicycle. The majority (42%) of bicycle fatalities in the US are riders on the road being hit from behind by drivers. Note below that the country with the highest fatality rate (US) is the one with the highest helmet use and highest rate of on-road cyclists while the safest country (NL) is the one where nobody wears a helmet and the vast majority of riding is done on protected bikeways.
08-10-16, 01:59 PM
#61
Senior Member
The US is the most dangerous country of all developed countries to ride a bicycle. The majority (42%) of bicycle fatalities in the US are riders on the road being hit from behind by drivers. Note below that the country with the highest fatality rate (US) is the one with the highest helmet use and highest rate of on-road cyclists while the safest country (NL) is the one where nobody wears a helmet and the vast majority of riding is done on protected bikeways.
And at the end of the year, deaths of motorists at over 30K out-number pedestrians and cyclists combined at 6000.
08-11-16, 09:18 AM
#62
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hills of Iowa
Posts: 1,248
Bikes: all diamond frames
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Your mistake is watching TV or reading the newspaper. Cancel your cable. Cancel the newspaper. I am dead serious. If the bomb does not land directly ON my house, then it benefits me zero to know about it.
Limit your concerns to things you can actually impact / affect. Your life will be less stressful about things you have no control over.
This election cycle is an excellent time to cut the cord. Two complete asshats and the media circus from hell. Nancy Reagan nailed it dead: Just say no!
(If you find it difficult to wean yourself from the "news" try reading a little Michael Crighton, like State of Fear or Airframe.)
Limit your concerns to things you can actually impact / affect. Your life will be less stressful about things you have no control over.
This election cycle is an excellent time to cut the cord. Two complete asshats and the media circus from hell. Nancy Reagan nailed it dead: Just say no!
(If you find it difficult to wean yourself from the "news" try reading a little Michael Crighton, like State of Fear or Airframe.)
Me not watching television or reading on line news will not keep me from getting clobbered by a texting, or drunk, or otherwise inattentive driver. I will reiterate: I do not intend to stop riding my bicycle. Simply changing venue. It seems like to many on this forum think that if you don't ride on the highway you cant ride at all. Maybe in other areas of the country this may be true, but in our we are blessed with many very lightly used rail trails, mup, bike path, (call them what you like) that highway riding is not our only option. By the way, I don't watch news on tv, just mindless sitcoms
08-11-16, 11:00 AM
#63
Senior Member
I googled but could not find statistical data for pedestrian fatalities per billion km or billion miles.
08-11-16, 11:24 AM
#64
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bristol, R. I.
Posts: 4,340
Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 663 Post(s)
Liked 496 Times
in
299 Posts
08-11-16, 11:45 AM
#65
NYC
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times
in
62 Posts
Me not watching television or reading on line news will not keep me from getting clobbered by a texting, or drunk, or otherwise inattentive driver. I will reiterate: I do not intend to stop riding my bicycle. Simply changing venue. It seems like to many on this forum think that if you don't ride on the highway you cant ride at all. Maybe in other areas of the country this may be true, but in our we are blessed with many very lightly used rail trails, mup, bike path, (call them what you like) that highway riding is not our only option. By the way, I don't watch news on tv, just mindless sitcoms
Like living in constant fear of terrorist attacks if you live in nyc or dc. Let's do the math... <5000 deaths (nationwide) in terrorist attacks in the last 20 years... against what, 15m people in nyc on any given day? 5k / 15m / 20 years is.... wait for it... around a 1:60000 chance. Or a 0.0016% chance in any given year. But if you allow media into the reasoning, you end up getting your blood pressure up.
So yes, ride smart. But no, don't ride in fear because of the anecdotes gleefully pandered for you by the media.
We are somehow wired to assign unreasonably high priorities to anecdotes and stories in our reasoning. Probably wise when Ogg at the orange berry and Ogg died. Important anecdote. Still not necessarily conclusive, but important. And in the absence of large normalized data sets, all we have to go on.
But relying on anecdotes when large normalized data is available leads to skewed reasoning.
Let me ask you this way: way more people are killed every year by drunk drivers. Are you constantly in fear of drunk drivers? Did you stop driving or change when and where you drive because a drunk driver could bla bla bla?
The are all edge case risks. They are things to be incorporated into the how we do things. But seldom are they worth changing the what we are going to do.
"The use of anecdotal evidence to draw a conclusion is like using the NBA all-star teams to estimate the average height of Americans." Anecdotal evidence - RationalWiki
And the vast vast majority of the media is nothing but anecdotal evidence, and worse it's anecdotal evidence chosen for its emotional appeal / sensationalism, or even worse again, chosen to further some editorial agenda.
Last edited by nycphotography; 08-11-16 at 11:48 AM.
08-11-16, 06:33 PM
#66
Senior Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXtuccQqIxU One solution is to rids bike where there are no cars or pedestrians such as on railroad tracks.
08-12-16, 08:47 AM
#67
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Hills of Iowa
Posts: 1,248
Bikes: all diamond frames
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
True, it won't keep you from getting clobbered. What it will keep from from is worrying about extreme edge case events which are statistically unlikely to ever happen to you.
Like living in constant fear of terrorist attacks if you live in nyc or dc. Let's do the math... <5000 deaths (nationwide) in terrorist attacks in the last 20 years... against what, 15m people in nyc on any given day? 5k / 15m / 20 years is.... wait for it... around a 1:60000 chance. Or a 0.0016% chance in any given year. But if you allow media into the reasoning, you end up getting your blood pressure up.
So yes, ride smart. But no, don't ride in fear because of the anecdotes gleefully pandered for you by the media.
We are somehow wired to assign unreasonably high priorities to anecdotes and stories in our reasoning. Probably wise when Ogg at the orange berry and Ogg died. Important anecdote. Still not necessarily conclusive, but important. And in the absence of large normalized data sets, all we have to go on.
But relying on anecdotes when large normalized data is available leads to skewed reasoning.
Let me ask you this way: way more people are killed every year by drunk drivers. Are you constantly in fear of drunk drivers? Did you stop driving or change when and where you drive because a drunk driver could bla bla bla?
The are all edge case risks. They are things to be incorporated into the how we do things. But seldom are they worth changing the what we are going to do.
"The use of anecdotal evidence to draw a conclusion is like using the NBA all-star teams to estimate the average height of Americans." Anecdotal evidence - RationalWiki
And the vast vast majority of the media is nothing but anecdotal evidence, and worse it's anecdotal evidence chosen for its emotional appeal / sensationalism, or even worse again, chosen to further some editorial agenda.
Like living in constant fear of terrorist attacks if you live in nyc or dc. Let's do the math... <5000 deaths (nationwide) in terrorist attacks in the last 20 years... against what, 15m people in nyc on any given day? 5k / 15m / 20 years is.... wait for it... around a 1:60000 chance. Or a 0.0016% chance in any given year. But if you allow media into the reasoning, you end up getting your blood pressure up.
So yes, ride smart. But no, don't ride in fear because of the anecdotes gleefully pandered for you by the media.
We are somehow wired to assign unreasonably high priorities to anecdotes and stories in our reasoning. Probably wise when Ogg at the orange berry and Ogg died. Important anecdote. Still not necessarily conclusive, but important. And in the absence of large normalized data sets, all we have to go on.
But relying on anecdotes when large normalized data is available leads to skewed reasoning.
Let me ask you this way: way more people are killed every year by drunk drivers. Are you constantly in fear of drunk drivers? Did you stop driving or change when and where you drive because a drunk driver could bla bla bla?
The are all edge case risks. They are things to be incorporated into the how we do things. But seldom are they worth changing the what we are going to do.
"The use of anecdotal evidence to draw a conclusion is like using the NBA all-star teams to estimate the average height of Americans." Anecdotal evidence - RationalWiki
And the vast vast majority of the media is nothing but anecdotal evidence, and worse it's anecdotal evidence chosen for its emotional appeal / sensationalism, or even worse again, chosen to further some editorial agenda.
I don't consider dead cyclists to be anecdotes. If you wish to stick your head in the sand and ignore what is going on around you, that is your choice, as it is mine to recognize there has been a change in what our society deems acceptable driving habits. Yes I do take in to account drunk drivers when I am driving. Two lane rural higways at midnight on Fridays is maybe not the safest place to drive. I do try to take alternate routes if there is one. I don't watch NBA basketball so I have no response to that
08-12-16, 10:05 AM
#69
NYC
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times
in
62 Posts
I will happily keep my head stuck in the sand enjoying every day without worry.
You only live once. If you choose to live the one life you get timidly afraid to simply do what you want, that's your business. But I will be enjoying all that life has to offer. Yes, living in NYC. Yes, even working downtown or in midtown where the terrorists are most likely to try to wreak havoc. Yes riding my bike on the road. Yes, driving when and where I want.
You only live once. If you choose to live the one life you get timidly afraid to simply do what you want, that's your business. But I will be enjoying all that life has to offer. Yes, living in NYC. Yes, even working downtown or in midtown where the terrorists are most likely to try to wreak havoc. Yes riding my bike on the road. Yes, driving when and where I want.
Last edited by nycphotography; 08-13-16 at 08:02 PM.
08-12-16, 10:08 AM
#70
NYC
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,714
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1169 Post(s)
Liked 107 Times
in
62 Posts
And yes, dead cyclists, while tragic, are anecdotes.
They are an edge case. They are not typical of the experience of cycling in general.
Look at the chart. 75 per BILLION kilometers. Billion with a B.
They are an edge case. They are not typical of the experience of cycling in general.
Look at the chart. 75 per BILLION kilometers. Billion with a B.
08-12-16, 02:54 PM
#71
Senior Member
The US is the most dangerous country of all developed countries to ride a bicycle. The majority (42%) of bicycle fatalities in the US are riders on the road being hit from behind by drivers. Note below that the country with the highest fatality rate (US) is the one with the highest helmet use and highest rate of on-road cyclists while the safest country (NL) is the one where nobody wears a helmet and the vast majority of riding is done on protected bikeways.
Copenhagen
Injured pedestrians pr billion km (10^9) (data from
2008-2012)
Accidents cyclists
0.5 killed/billion km (over four years)
16.1 injured/billion km (over four years)
Accidents motor vehicles
2.7 killed/billion km (over four years)
30.9 injured/billion km (over four years)
July 2, 2013
Traffic Safety
__________________________
MUNICIPALITY OF COPENHAGEN
The Technical and Environmental Administration
Department for Traffic
Their e-mail indicated killed in motor vehicles were 5x that of bicycles per billion km.
08-13-16, 04:24 AM
#73
Senior Member
The data in the chart are from Eurobarometer (part of the EU commission) and are what is reported to them by each country.
Last edited by CrankyOne; 08-13-16 at 04:34 AM.
08-13-16, 06:27 AM
#74
Third World Layabout
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Costa Rica
Posts: 3,136
Bikes: Cannondale F900 and Tandem
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 397 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 32 Times
in
22 Posts
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, though I tried to read through the entire thread, but I do believe you can find sources of accidents per road, even down to intersections, etc. Not all roads are created equal when it comes to danger. In our neck of the jungle, I haven't heard of an accident in our little town for 10 years, but just up the road about 40 kilometers, I tend to hear about one a month. (bikes and motorcycles).
Much of it is how the roads are laid out. Also, I found if I go over toward the tourist area, I have to be on heightened alert - because they are rubber necking, instead of paying attention to the road.
One thing I learned when I started riding a motorcycle, and I now use when riding a bike is to stay in the place of the right tire, if not even more away from the edge - then, as they start to pass, I move over - this gives me lots of room. If I start at the edge, not only to I have to deal with debris there - but I also have no where to go if someone squeezes me.
Generally speaking though, except in areas that have been effected by foreigners, tourist, etc, everyone will slow down, if they can't pass you safely.
Much of it is how the roads are laid out. Also, I found if I go over toward the tourist area, I have to be on heightened alert - because they are rubber necking, instead of paying attention to the road.
One thing I learned when I started riding a motorcycle, and I now use when riding a bike is to stay in the place of the right tire, if not even more away from the edge - then, as they start to pass, I move over - this gives me lots of room. If I start at the edge, not only to I have to deal with debris there - but I also have no where to go if someone squeezes me.
Generally speaking though, except in areas that have been effected by foreigners, tourist, etc, everyone will slow down, if they can't pass you safely.
08-13-16, 01:26 PM
#75
Senior Member
There is no 'Municipality of Denmark' that I am aware of. There is a Country of Denmark and a Copenhagen Municipality. Copenhagen Municipality is roughly the central 1/3 of the Metropolitan Area Copenhagen.
The data in the chart are from Eurobarometer (part of the EU commission) and are what is reported to them by each country.
The data in the chart are from Eurobarometer (part of the EU commission) and are what is reported to them by each country.
Injured pedestrians pr billion km (10^9) (data from
2008-2012)
Accidents cyclists
0.5 killed/billion km (over four years)
16.1 injured/billion km (over four years)
Accidents motor vehicles
2.7 killed/billion km (over four years)
30.9 injured/billion km (over four years)
July 2, 2013
Traffic Safety
__________________________
MUNICIPALITY OF COPENHAGEN
The Technical and Environmental Administration
Department for Traffic
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Eyenigma
Southern California
34
10-11-15 06:44 AM
