Offer to eat crow re disc brakes
#1
Senior Curmudgeon
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 3,856
Bikes: Varies by day
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
Offer to eat crow re disc brakes
OK - having had my Kona Dew Deluxe (originally fitted with Shimano MTB discs, now with Avid road disc brakes) for a few months now, I've the following to say:
1. The disc brakes stop perfectly in dry OR wet conditions
2. The front wheel dish has not affected the wheel durability (despite my 260# weight)
3. The discs are the most difficult to adjust of any brakes I've ever owned - no matter how carefully I adjust them, one or the other always seem to want to rub slightly
4. The discs are heavier than rim brakes
5. Although the disc technology is theoretically superior to rim, the implementation isn't ready for road bikes yet (unless loaded touring, commuting, or wet performance is paramount)
On my "Boomer Bikes" thread, I listed a preference for road bikes having disc brakes. I was wrong. With today's disc brakes, sometimes the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
Because I don't do loaded touring, downhill offroad, or wet riding, I don't need discs. Mea culpa.
1. The disc brakes stop perfectly in dry OR wet conditions
2. The front wheel dish has not affected the wheel durability (despite my 260# weight)
3. The discs are the most difficult to adjust of any brakes I've ever owned - no matter how carefully I adjust them, one or the other always seem to want to rub slightly
4. The discs are heavier than rim brakes
5. Although the disc technology is theoretically superior to rim, the implementation isn't ready for road bikes yet (unless loaded touring, commuting, or wet performance is paramount)
On my "Boomer Bikes" thread, I listed a preference for road bikes having disc brakes. I was wrong. With today's disc brakes, sometimes the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.
Because I don't do loaded touring, downhill offroad, or wet riding, I don't need discs. Mea culpa.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 688
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
One of my bikes, Jamis Coda Elite, has discs and I love the smooth easy way they stop the bike regardless of road conditions. It takes a while, but I can get them seated pretty nicely. My big bugaboo about the discs is when I have to remove the rear wheel. What a pain in the...well, let's just say it's a hemorhoid. So, I agree that they have their advantages and disadvantages. I'll be very happy with them for any wet riding I do as the seasons change.
#3
Banned.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
Your original thread on Baby Boomer Bikes
And are you willing to "eat crow" on any of your other suggestions, which were:
1. Comfortable frame angles but still light (think Specialized Roubaix..)
2. Double front chain rings with some range rather than flaky-shifting triples
3. DISC BRAKES - rim brakes are **SO** last-century (Really take this suggestion to heart!)
4. Durable but light parts groups that rekindle the stuff we wanted back when (think Campy Veloche or even Chorus)
5. STRONG WHEELS that won't taco (remember I said we were heavier now..) Think 36 spoke units with deep V rims and 23 to 28 mm 700c tires to match our various durability needs
6. Adjustable stem and bar options for comfort but still with lightness.
7. Target prices between $1,500 and $2,500 for entry level - up to $3,500 for upscales.
8. No more than 18 gears - 14 is even better - durability and smoothness are more important than "wow."
?
I am still affronted by your "flaky-shifting triples" statement.
The rest of them, I can live with, although I have been living quite well for 6 years on the same 32 spoke wheels without any problem, and I topped the scale at 240, although I am 210 now, and I happen to like my 27 gears.
And are you willing to "eat crow" on any of your other suggestions, which were:
1. Comfortable frame angles but still light (think Specialized Roubaix..)
2. Double front chain rings with some range rather than flaky-shifting triples
3. DISC BRAKES - rim brakes are **SO** last-century (Really take this suggestion to heart!)
4. Durable but light parts groups that rekindle the stuff we wanted back when (think Campy Veloche or even Chorus)
5. STRONG WHEELS that won't taco (remember I said we were heavier now..) Think 36 spoke units with deep V rims and 23 to 28 mm 700c tires to match our various durability needs
6. Adjustable stem and bar options for comfort but still with lightness.
7. Target prices between $1,500 and $2,500 for entry level - up to $3,500 for upscales.
8. No more than 18 gears - 14 is even better - durability and smoothness are more important than "wow."
I am still affronted by your "flaky-shifting triples" statement.
The rest of them, I can live with, although I have been living quite well for 6 years on the same 32 spoke wheels without any problem, and I topped the scale at 240, although I am 210 now, and I happen to like my 27 gears.
Last edited by DnvrFox; 10-06-05 at 06:20 AM.
#4
Rides again
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: SW. Sacramento Region, aka, down river
Posts: 3,282
Bikes: Giant OCR T, Trek SC
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by FarHorizon
OK - having had my Kona Dew Deluxe (originally fitted with Shimano MTB discs, now with Avid road disc brakes) for a few months now, I've the following to say:
...
3. The discs are the most difficult to adjust of any brakes I've ever owned - no matter how carefully I adjust them, one or the other always seem to want to rub slightly
...
3. The discs are the most difficult to adjust of any brakes I've ever owned - no matter how carefully I adjust them, one or the other always seem to want to rub slightly
4. The discs are heavier than rim brakes
Because I don't do loaded touring, downhill offroad, or wet riding, I don't need discs. Mea culpa.
#5
Senior Curmudgeon
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 3,856
Bikes: Varies by day
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
1 Post
Originally Posted by DnvrFox
...And are you willing to "eat crow" on any of your other suggestions...
Suggestion 1 - more relaxed frame angles - I now believe more passionately than ever that this is a good suggestion. The majority of bike manufacturers make frames today with WAY too steep frame angles for the majority of uses that their bikes are put to. I'd like to see a good selection of 72 degree head and seat tube bikes offered (one or two models from every manufacturer). I'd also like to see much longer wheelbases (more fork rake and longer chain stays).
Suggestion 2 - Doubles instead of triples - You're right - I'm wrong. For folks who need a triple, they're perfectly justified. I'd also like to see bikes offered with SINGLE chainrings, though. For my location a single makes more sense than even a double.
Suggestion 3 - Disc brakes - I've already stated my thoughts.
Suggestion 4 - Not really an issue - most bike makers offer perfectly durable and reasonably light gruppos already.
Suggestion 5 - I believe that strong wheels are important. The majority of bicycle buyers don't weigh 150 pounds anymore. I'm willing to concede, though, that with deep-V rims, the spoke count may not be as important as I thought. My Campagnolo Vento wheels are a prime example.
Suggestion 6 - I don't necessarily think that adjustable stems are a necessity, but they'd sure be nice - especially with variable reach! With threadless headsets and steerer tubes pre-cut, the average rider doesn't have much option when trying to set bar height and reach! It was much easier with quill stems! I'd like to see it become equally easy with threadless stems. How? I'm not sure, but perhaps a "trainer" stem should be fitted by the bike shop with variable rise and reach. After the customer was fitted, an appropriate stem could then be put on the bike (easy if the stems all had MTB style 2-bolt caps).
Suggestion 7 - Target price isn't that much of an issue. What some are willing/able to pay, others aren't. I think my suggestions should apply at ALL price points.
Suggestion 8 - With the exception of triple chain rings (already discussed), I still believe that the disadvantages of 10-speed rear cassettes outweigh any possible gain. I think that minimizing rear wheel dish for strength is more important than having more gears (with their higher wear rates, thinner-and-weaker chains, etc.). I'd like to see six to eight speed cassettes become the norm, but I realistically don't expect this to happen. Marketing, not common sense, drives gear train development. After looking at overlapping gears, the 30 speed bike of today offers no more real ratios (or range) than an intelligently designed 16 speed drive train.
Feedback?
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 813
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix Pro
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
This is an excellent exchange of views--the kind of thing I've come to expect on this gray-headed forum. Well-done!
__________________
Specialized Roubaix Pro
Specialized Sequoia Elite
Specialized Roubaix Pro
Specialized Sequoia Elite
#7
Fattest Thin Man
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Directly above the center of the earth
Posts: 2,648
Bikes: Miyata 610, Vinco V, Rocky Mountain Element
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 4 Times
in
1 Post
Regarding suggestion 8: The jury's still out on that. My old '82 Miyata has a 5 speed cassette, and the chain is completely bushed. It's very strong and lasts many, many miles even if abused.
My slightly newer Trek has an 8 speed cassette. And with less than 300 miles on it, I've already broken a chain. It caused a very painful fall. However, the additional gear ratios do make it easier to keep my cadence consistent with the wildly varying terrain we have around here.
I guess the real issue is how difficult it is for me to adapt, since parts for the older bikes are getting harder and harder to find.
Az
My slightly newer Trek has an 8 speed cassette. And with less than 300 miles on it, I've already broken a chain. It caused a very painful fall. However, the additional gear ratios do make it easier to keep my cadence consistent with the wildly varying terrain we have around here.
I guess the real issue is how difficult it is for me to adapt, since parts for the older bikes are getting harder and harder to find.
Az
#8
Banned.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 20,917
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
10 Posts
I have 21 speed on my mtn bike and 24 speed on my Sora roadie, and 27 on my Lemond.
As far as I can tell, I would be just as happy with the 21 speeds on everything, as long as I had a "real" granny for hills. I have even placed a 28 chain ring on my Lemond for extra oomph on hills around here in CO land.
As far as I can tell, I would be just as happy with the 21 speeds on everything, as long as I had a "real" granny for hills. I have even placed a 28 chain ring on my Lemond for extra oomph on hills around here in CO land.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Northern Nevada
Posts: 3,811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Friend of mine who switched to discs this spring says the same thing: "They work about as well and weigh a pound more." He doesn't have any complaints about their performance, but they're not an improvement over his old Ultegras w/aftermarket pads and they do weigh more.
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 518
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Between my disc brakes extra pound and the six pounds worth of bike locks, I'll need to drop some body weight to make up for it. That's OK, need to lose the ~25 pounds of flab anyway.
#11
Time for a change.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Posts: 19,913
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Originally Posted by Velo Dog
Friend of mine who switched to discs this spring says the same thing: "They work about as well and weigh a pound more." He doesn't have any complaints about their performance, but they're not an improvement over his old Ultegras w/aftermarket pads and they do weigh more.
I have two mountain bike solos, and they both have V Brakes fitted. They are completely adequate for my type of use, and I also do Road rides at a respectable speed when I fit the Slicks. They do not need or require disc brakes, but then I am an accomplished rider and I only weigh 147lbs.
However, there are mountain bikes, that in my opinion need disc brakes, These are the higher quality Full suspension bikes, and the way these things shift on the flat offroad, or when Gravity takes over, disc brakes are well worth the expense, but these bikes probably came with top grade Hydraulic disc brakes as standard. On the average Hardtail or medium quality full suspension bikes that will go slower downhill, then V Brakes are good enough
Now we get onto the beastie. A full offroad Tandem. This bike is heavy, it is fast and takes a lot of stopping. Top quality Disc brakes, massive great big discs and a pleading letter to the bank manager to get them.
Disc brakes have several advantages. The braking area is out of the trail debris and wet and mud and the braking effect is better than any rim brake. They do not wear out rims that ordinary brakes will do, and disc replacement is cheaper than Rim replacement. Disadvantages-- Heavy, expensive, and you do have a bit of rub.
On a bike that is mainly used on the road, the weight and pad rub will put you at a disadvantage. However- If you are talking Offroad, full suspension, Clydesdale, or wet muddy weather they are a godsend.
As to disc brakes not being better than V Brakes- They are providing a good quality Hydraulic unit is fitted. Cable disc brakes are often not as good as V Brakes, and the cheaper Hydraulic units may take some sorting to get right.
#12
Time for a change.
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Posts: 19,913
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 5 Times
in
4 Posts
Originally Posted by HiYoSilver
Or commuting. I'm still planning to eventually get a lighter bike, but it will have disc brakes. Even if I have to go the custom route. The weight difference is less than a night light, or fenders. Whenever I get concerned about weight I reexamine what's in my bag, and always find extra stuff I really don't need.
If I ever analysed what I carry in my bag, and when I last used it, I would throw most of it away, but then Murphy's law would take over, and it would not be an enjoyable ride. Extra weight is not a problem, and 1lb extra on disc brakes is nothing, As you say, Look at the bike, and how effective it is. If like me you want and need disc brakes --Fit them.