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Old 12-13-05, 07:28 PM   #1
p8rider
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As many know. I have been taking my time to select a new bike to take over from the venerable P8.
I had narrowed it down to two bikes and rode each today.
One I wanted to ride was the Lemond Zurich. Nearest LBS did not have one, but did have a Tourmalet and while it is all alu, it has the same geometry as the Zurich. The geometry of the Lemond is what I was interested in so I rode the Tourmalet. Also I only rode it about 4 1/2 miles so I was not worried about the alu buzz. The Lemond was a beautiful bike, after figuring out these new shifters I took off and had a nice ride with a mix of hills, (up & down). I found it to be very touchy on the bars. The word may be twitchy. I had a bad tendency to overcompensate when steering. After a bit I worked out to stay very light on the steering and finished nicely. The long and short of it is that I just didn't feel comfortable. I felt my Peugeot is a much nicer ride.
Second bike is the Trek 5200. The LBS had it in stock in my size 52cm. Once again a beautiful bike, all carbon and nicely equiped as stock. Took a 5 mile ride on it. The difference to the Lemond was dramatic. The bike felt very stable. After the first hill climb I tried no hands and cruised right along. It appears to be perfectly balanced for me. Long story short is that I have just had then put it away for me along with shoes, Look, clipless pedals, new computer, lights everything. This weekend my wife will go and buy it for me for Christmas, (not a bad deal eh!) It is one beautiful bike.

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Old 12-13-05, 07:50 PM   #2
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Sounds great! Best of luck with your new bike. By the way, could you have your wife call my wife and drop a gentle hint?
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Old 12-13-05, 08:00 PM   #3
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Excellent p8rider! Throw some pics on the thread when you unwrap it.

How are those shifters on the brake levers? I've seen them (of course), but never experienced them. How the heck do they work? Do you move them left and right? Or just click them and they come back into place? I never see them to the sides of the brake levers, only ever directly behind. Do you push them up and down?

Sorry for the questions . . . I've honestly never been around them (and it has stopped me from even considering any frame that wouldn't be down-tube friction shifting).

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck with your new ride and much happiness (and safety) out there on the road with it.
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Old 12-13-05, 08:13 PM   #4
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oldcrank - the shifters are two part. You move them all from outside to inside.One inner lever takes you up in gears, moving the actual brake lever takes you back down. They are spring loaded and drop right back into place. The right brake handles the cassette and left operates the front. The gear movement is done one at a time which is a minus from friction shifters where you can scoot down the whole cassette at once, but a really nice movement. The other huge inprovement is brakes. My Peugeot has Weinman center pulls and at best can slow down my forward progress. These new brakes have dramatic stopping ability with little effort.
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Old 12-13-05, 08:34 PM   #5
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P8........
Thanks for the surrogate test ride. I'm considering (make that "hoping for") a new bike this coming spring (just gotta swing the kids' tuition) and have been considering either a Spec. Roubaix or Lemond Zurich. To be honest, I still don't totally trust a totally "plastic" frame and the steel is real thing is hard to shake. Many posters here love their Roubaix's, and Dnvr seems to adore his Lemond. My second-hand impression has been that Zurichs are comfortable, smooth, long haul (and therefore presumably not twitchy) for a racing style bike. Haven't considered the Trek 5200 but I will.

What is the geometry like on your P8? I frequently ride an upright (74degree) short wheelbase crit bike and find it sweet and quick and fun on all but fast descents...for which I prefer my laid back Romulus sport tour bike. (Also, around 60 miles I'm a bit road-buzzed.) Could your impressions be colored by your Peugeot's ride feel?

Sorry for the rambling question. PLease post pictures and ride impressions. And congratulations.

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Old 12-13-05, 10:13 PM   #6
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Great choice P8!! I can just see you zipping past me on your new ride. I really think that you're going to like the comfort and ride of the 5200. You'll find the hills a little less hilly and those longer rides a little shorter. Enjoy the new bike. Can't wait to see the pics!
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Old 12-14-05, 08:31 AM   #7
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Grannygear - Several good questions. Of course my impressions are colored by the bike I currently ride and the only bike I have ridden for thousands of miles. Perhaps the Lemond was not set up the same as the Trek, although the bar,seat height relationship appeared about the same I did not measure them. As for the Peugeot ride, It does carry a longer wheelbase and in classic style is more an upright seatpost. I don't know the exact angle.
They say the way to select a bike is to ride them and that perfect for one will not be the same for another. The Zurich is a spine bike, steel downtube, BB and chainstays with carbon top tube, seat tube and seat stays. So if you don't fully trust carbon you might want to try their "Croix de Fer" which is still all steel.
As for the Peugeot ride, it is very smooth. I would not describe it as quick because of it's weight and 12 speed gearing, but it is a great bike for touring around. It came with 27" x 1" tires and now has 1 1/4" tires with Maillard hubs. It is a 55cm size and according to the Trek LBS owner I have been riding it too high and using my calves too much. I believe him. Anyway, I plan to continue riding it when I ride with my children. Here is a pic of the Peugeot, I will attache pics of the 5200 when I get it home.
Thanks for everyone's comments, I think I will have a fun year of riding in '06.
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File Type: jpg 001_24A[1].jpg (64.2 KB, 59 views)

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Old 12-14-05, 09:03 AM   #8
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Congrats on choosing a new bike.

While I love my Lemond, and don't find it twitchy in the least, I think that past riding experiences would make a great deal of difference in evaluating "twitchiness."

I came directly from a mountain bike to a Lemond, with no road experience, so accepted what I rode as normal, and it has always seemd totally stable to me. Responsive, yes. Twitchy - no.

But, that is why there are so many bikes - because there are so many riders, and we are all different.

Have fun!

Enjoy. (Since I am headed towads 97 yo - 31 years hence, I think I may have to get a new bike sometime in the next 31 years! Wonder what bicycles will be like in 10 years? Plastic perhaps? Some new exotic material.

And, oldcrank - those "brifters" work great. Try them out.
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Old 12-14-05, 11:36 AM   #9
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I agree with you Dnvrfx, we are all different. I'm not trying to knock the Lemond at all. It may just be my past riding experience which determines I feel the Lemond as "twitchy". I would certainly suggest to others that they give it a ride, it's a quality bike.
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Old 12-14-05, 01:43 PM   #10
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You should give them a try; I would have a hard time going back to downtube shifters.

P8's description is correct. You move the "brake handle" outside to inside to shift (pivots like a door) to shift to a larger cog (rear). This increases the tension on the cable which is "indexed" to pull the derailluer over a cog's worth - just as you do manually (but no trimming). To shift to a smaller cog, there is a "button" that you press with your thumb which releases a cog's worth of cable. In addition to shifting without having to remove your hands from the bars, you can also shift both front and rear simultaneously. And if you really want to get geeky, Shimano has a cycling computer ("Flight Deck") that is integrated with their "brifters" so that you can control the computer, also without having to remove your hands from the bars (it also displays which gear combo you are in) - a little overkill for me, but my wife loves it (until she hits the wrong button). It sounds complicated, but you would be comfortable in about two minutes with it, I'll bet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcrank
How are those shifters on the brake levers? I've seen them (of course), but never experienced them. How the heck do they work? Do you move them left and right? Or just click them and they come back into place? I never see them to the sides of the brake levers, only ever directly behind. Do you push them up and down?

Sorry for the questions . . . I've honestly never been around them (and it has stopped me from even considering any frame that wouldn't be down-tube friction shifting).
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Old 12-14-05, 04:04 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p8rider
oldcrank - the shifters are two part. ... The gear movement is done one at a time which is a minus from friction shifters where you can scoot down the whole cassette at once, but a really nice movement. The other huge improvement is brakes. ...
And, for those of us in colder climes, don't forget that the new shifters aren't worth a da** in when it gets below about 35 degrees F. Just today I rode with an outside temp of about 30 and opted for my Miyata with downtube shifters. It might as well have been 70 as far as the operation of the gears went. And when I peaked the last hill I reached down and shoved the right lever all the way forward and, alakazam, went from my lowest to highest cog in no time flat.

As for brakes, although the Miyata's aren't great, my (20 year old) Centurion touring bike has cantilever brakes which are very strong.

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Old 12-15-05, 10:22 PM   #12
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Thanks for the explanations, I appreciate it. I pretty sure I'm following it and getting the picture of how they work. Perhaps there will be brifters for me sometime down the road. Reaching down is such a habit, second-nature really. I wonder if I would miss it. Or how long it would take to break the habit.

I could always shift front and rear simultaneously using one hand on downtube shifters -- just a matter of hand and finger movements.

Last edited by oldcrank; 12-15-05 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 12-15-05, 10:55 PM   #13
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An economical, alternative compromise to brifters vs. dt's is less-than-slick but functional bar-ends. Only thing you can't do so well is shift out of saddle perhaps. DuraAce bar-ends come in new around $70-80 for 9 spd. Plus have friction option. SunTour bar-ends on eBay very cheap last forever. Only downer is the cable squirting out of bars to deal with...but it soon becomes an almost nonissue.

OldCrank, how do you stay so ripped on pizza-- and all that gingerbread you made the other night?
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Old 12-16-05, 08:45 AM   #14
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I've had the end-tube shifters in the past grannygear -- I liked them. It was on an old Fuji way back when. If I couldn't have down-tube, they would definately be my second choice. I just purchased a rare custom-Croll frame and fork (R531c), and I noticed that it had downtube cable stops for the brifters (probably added on later). I'm hoping that I can remove the cable stops and use the boses for friction (there is a hex bolt screwing the cable stops onto the bosses). If not, I had forgotten all about bar-ends, so thank you for the reminder. That's why I was asking about the brifters -- I thought that I wouldn't have a choice. Thanks to you -- now I do again!

Thanks for the other compliment as well. I've been a member of another forum for a while now (bodybuilding.com) -- and I also hit the Arnold Classic each year. I had VIP tickets last year, so got to meet Arnold and Franco (Columbu, his sidekick for years), and also had a seminar with them on Sunday morning as part of the VIP package. Nutritional and physical advice from the best, for sure!

Actually, I consider pizza to be one of the most perfect foods on Earth (providing it's fresh and wholesome -- not take out or delivery!). My wife and I cook alot of pizzas. We even make our own mozz. cheese!
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Old 12-16-05, 09:01 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcrank
Thanks for the explanations, I appreciate it. I pretty sure I'm following it and getting the picture of how they work. Perhaps there will be brifters for me sometime down the road. Reaching down is such a habit, second-nature really. I wonder if I would miss it. Or how long it would take to break the habit.

I could always shift front and rear simultaneously using one hand on downtube shifters -- just a matter of hand and finger movements.
I had been using down tube shifters on my old Raleigh Super Course. I was skeptical of the shifters on the breaks in addition to why would I possibly need a 10 speed. Well I love the new shifters. Just a simple click and it shifts positively to the next geat. Click it 3 times and it moves 3 gears. I find myself shifting more frequently which helps to maintain speed and cadence. As far as having 10 speeds I find myself shifting the front chainring less often as I have an effective 8 gear choice in each front ring. My hands never have to leave the handle bar whether I am riding the tops or on the drops. I still ride the old Raleigh occasionally but now find it a pain to shift gears and wind up riding my trip in only one or two gears. If it matters the drive train on my new bike is Ultegra.
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Old 12-16-05, 09:21 AM   #16
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Without sounding overly luddite (just learned that word meaning here, I hope, paleoconservative in terms of technology)........Grant Peterson says (ahem!) that its good to become accustomed to different cadences and sometimes the "wrong gear" is better for becoming an all-round cyclist. Not to mention the tactile joy of silently slipping (friction mode) that chain over and getting a satisfying ka-chunk in your ear. Or the joy of fiddling around fine tuning to get that perfectly seated chain. Certainly can't dispute the less than ideal safety situation of taking the hand off bars on a bumpy road descent to reach for a shifter...or the joy of shifting out of the saddle when that Rottweiler is vectoring on your ankle.

However, less weight, longer equipment lifespan, cheapness, durabililty, and the gracefulness of lesser- engineered simplicity count positively for traditional shifters.

Just thought I'd weigh in here...I'm acquiring brifters this spring for one bike. Campy Veloce (with JTek) or 105......Big Question?? Advice welcome.
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Old 12-16-05, 09:47 AM   #17
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oldcrank, the one thing I had to get used to when first using brifters was using the brake lever in a way that didn't cause the gears to shift. With down tube shifters, I could just grab and pull without paying attention to pulling straight back. I managed to shift gears on the back a couple of times with the brifters before I got used to it.
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Old 12-16-05, 10:15 AM   #18
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You are going to have to change your handle to "5200rider"
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Old 12-16-05, 11:46 AM   #19
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No, I don't think so. Since the P8 will remain one of my active selections, so I will remain p8rider.
The p8 got me into this mess, here I am exercising, getting a new bike, riding a metric cent. on Jan 1. I am even considering getting some of those funny tight shorts rather than my Champion sweats. It's all the p8's fault so the name stays to share the blame!
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Old 12-16-05, 11:49 AM   #20
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Congrats, P8! I'm jealous (or is it envious) of you getting a new bike! And now you're going to get real bike shorts? Wow -- you're going over to the dark side!
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Old 12-16-05, 12:05 PM   #21
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Well the p8 is blue and the 5200 is anthracite shading to black so I guess it is going to the dark side. lol As for the shorts perhaps I can resist them.
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Old 12-16-05, 12:07 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geraldatwork
I had been using down tube shifters on my old Raleigh Super Course. I was skeptical of the shifters on the breaks in addition to why would I possibly need a 10 speed. Well I love the new shifters. Just a simple click and it shifts positively to the next geat. Click it 3 times and it moves 3 gears. I find myself shifting more frequently which helps to maintain speed and cadence. As far as having 10 speeds I find myself shifting the front chainring less often as I have an effective 8 gear choice in each front ring. My hands never have to leave the handle bar whether I am riding the tops or on the drops. I still ride the old Raleigh occasionally but now find it a pain to shift gears and wind up riding my trip in only one or two gears. If it matters the drive train on my new bike is Ultegra.
I agree with "geraldatwork" completely, being a Luddite is all well and good and if that's part of you identity that’s fine also, but do give the brifters a fair chance. There advantages so far outweigh there disadvantages it’s amazing. I just went to brifters about a year and a half ago and they very quickly became second nature.

As far as weight goes, bikes are so light now even with the few extra grams from brifters. And the idea that there is something otherworldly and euphoric about shifting with friction shifter as Grant Peterson says is kind of silly. (“Not to mention the tactile joy of silently slipping (friction mode) that chain over and getting a satisfying ka-chunk in your ear. Or the joy of fiddling around fine tuning to get that perfectly seated chain“.) I love to ride and never really considered the act of shifting to add anything to the joy of riding. To me there is something euphoric about having the gear I need (want) at my fingertips when I want it.

Just for the fun of it, go to a bike shop and test ride a few of the “new” style bikes with brifters. Now, you may hate them, but you just may walk with a new bike.

As you can tell I think brifters do add to the joy of riding.
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Old 12-16-05, 12:15 PM   #23
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I really did like the brifters. As someone else mentioned, during my test of both the Lemond and Trek I found myself shifting alot more particularly on uphill segments. As comfortable as I am on the p8 it is not unusual for me to have some trouble on the final hill of my ride leading up to my home. Trying for second gear I sometimes miss and switch to first. The hill is so steep that I then must slalom across the hill to change the gear properly. Doing so loses time and my exercise ride is a timed ride so losing time bothers me.
I found the new shifters so smooth and certain that as I tested each bike I kept flipping through gears with greater frequency. I had to keep reminding myself it was the feel of the bike I wanted to test, not the cool shifters!
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Old 12-16-05, 09:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldcrank

Actually, I consider pizza to be one of the most perfect foods on Earth (providing it's fresh and wholesome -- not take out or delivery!). My wife and I cook alot of pizzas. We even make our own mozz. cheese!
OldCrank....I love pizza home-made. But generally doesn't taste as good as I'd like. Wanna share your homemade pizza directions, crust, sauce, toppings, etc.??
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Old 12-17-05, 10:07 AM   #25
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I went to brifters last year, at age 50, and I would never go back to down tube shifters unless I had to, which unfortunately I did. I crashed my beautiful new bike and went back to the old bike I had been riding.

Everything said about the new technology is true. They shift flawlessly, the brakes will stop on a dime without flipping you over because they give good feedback, they are light enough. I had a Chorus group on my bike which is a carbon mix and very light, but the lower models don't weigh more than a few grams more.

One thing to consider is the Shimano vs. Campy difference. Shimano has the movable brake lever to shift in the opposite direction, whereas Campy has the thumb button. Also Campy will do multiple shifts, but I think shimano is one at a time. Shimano also has the cables sticking out, something that was eliminated in the 80's from brake levers. Campy cables are routed under the bar tape. I went with Campy, but there is nothing wrong with Shimano and I think they have 90% of the market.

You will shift a lot more, you have closer spacing on the gears with the 10 cogs. Every slight change in conditions will have you change. ON hills, you will adjust for every change in grade, in wind you'll find a gear that is perfect. Its easier and you have more to choose from.

Enjoy whatever you get! And keep on riding.
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