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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougG
    Yes, but how could it "naturally" be that high in one test and not in tests taken a few days before and after? And I guess there's a question of how even an artificial dosing could spike like that for a single day's results. I think we should all step back until someone comes up with a believable biochemical explanation.
    Because they can vary from day to day and hour to hour. What the heck is with you people that think that organic beings are as homogenous as a can of paint?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carusoswi
    We all knew that it was likely the B sample would be consistent with the A sample, so that was no surprise to me.
    To my way of thinking this means that either he was cheating (for no good reason - despite the myth that testosterone causes you to recover faster no studies have shown that) or there was a perfectly natural reason for it.

    I'm leaning on the second part because NO ONE uses an illegal drug and then does the one thing necessary to be tested for it.

  3. #28
    Old Enough to Know Better WalterMitty's Avatar
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    I am afraid that given the history with Lance (and oil-for-food, weapons to Iran, basically, the history of French politics, policy and relationships internally and with the world at large for the past 300 years) I don't trust the French either.

    I spent significant time in France as well, and as near as I can tell, not even the French particularly like/trust the French. When it comes to losing their beloved TDF yet again to another *American*, well, very few French I knew would have considered a little hanky panky in the name of national pride to be beyond the pale.

    My guess is that at this point we all know where we stand and that won't be changed any time soon unless one or the other party admits error or fault. To paraphrase, I'd rather be facing a German trying to kill me than a Frenchman watching my back.

  4. #29
    Senior Member jazzy_cyclist's Avatar
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    I don't think the "French conspiracy" is a likely explanation, not to say that the French love American cyclists. And the presence of exogenous testosterone is pretty damning - this test is probably relatively "foolproof".

    I am wondering more and more, though, about the "they did it to me" theory. These guys get daily massages and I think Testosterone can be absorbed that way. Not sure if you can ingest it orally, but who's to say that someone couldn't have slipped it in his Jack Daniels? Maybe he's an incredibly good actor, but I sure couldn't lie that convincingly. Maybe I am just naive -- I don't doubt that plenty of cyclists dope, I would just consider Floyd to be one of the more unlikely candidates.

  5. #30
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    I must confess that my main reason for tuning in to the TDF was for catching glimpses of the countryside as it wizzed by. The cycling is incredible, to be sure, but my level of respect for pro sports in general has eroded to the point of virtual non-interest. My money follows that non-interest.

    Commercialism and politics in my lifetime have corrupted sports to such a degree that I hold my nose at the nightly news/sports broadcast. Add to that, the lack of personal character and public dignity of so many pro sports figures has brought sports down to the slime-pit of lawyers and senate 'hearings'. To be fair, Landis seems like a decent enough fellow as a citizen. At least he hasn't bitten off an ear.

    Talk of bringing back "respect for the game" is just that - talk. It's business as usual in pro sports. Name your sport and follow the money. The trail will likely lead to a corporate boardroom somewhere, possibly with a congressman attached by a plain brown envelope.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzy_cyclist
    I don't think the "French conspiracy" is a likely explanation, not to say that the French love American cyclists. And the presence of exogenous testosterone is pretty damning - this test is probably relatively "foolproof".

    I am wondering more and more, though, about the "they did it to me" theory. These guys get daily massages and I think Testosterone can be absorbed that way. Not sure if you can ingest it orally, but who's to say that someone couldn't have slipped it in his Jack Daniels? Maybe he's an incredibly good actor, but I sure couldn't lie that convincingly. Maybe I am just naive -- I don't doubt that plenty of cyclists dope, I would just consider Floyd to be one of the more unlikely candidates.
    +1
    I hate seeing these discussions always turn into nationalistic "us" vs. "them" rants. I'm starting to suspect that the fault may lie somewhere within Team Phonak. The trainers, coaches directors etc. all have a lot at stake and a lot of access to what goes into and onto a rider, especially if the rider has been drinking. I wonder who was the "someone" who brought out the bottle of Jack Daniels.
    The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by jcm
    I must confess that my main reason for tuning in to the TDF was for catching glimpses of the countryside as it wizzed by. The cycling is incredible, to be sure, but my level of respect for pro sports in general has eroded to the point of virtual non-interest. My money follows that non-interest.

    Commercialism and politics in my lifetime have corrupted sports to such a degree that I hold my nose at the nightly news/sports broadcast. Add to that, the lack of personal character and public dignity of so many pro sports figures has brought sports down to the slime-pit of lawyers and senate 'hearings'. To be fair, Landis seems like a decent enough fellow as a citizen. At least he hasn't bitten off an ear.

    Talk of bringing back "respect for the game" is just that - talk. It's business as usual in pro sports. Name your sport and follow the money. The trail will likely lead to a corporate boardroom somewhere, possibly with a congressman attached by a plain brown envelope.

    +100.

    And we as citizens are fools to buy the overpriced tickets for these events.

  8. #33
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    Whatever you are paying to see cycling road races, I'll get you a roadside view for half the price
    The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

  9. #34
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    I hope Floyd's clean; I just don't know what to think yet. But let's face it: one way or the other this incident is not going to irreparably damage the TDF. Cheating and European mega-sports go hand in hand. Always have, always will. It's part of the sports religion over there. I don't care whether it's TDF, the ISDE, European motocross (you know, before we Yanks reinvented it) or the Olympics, cheating is part of the sports culture over there. The biggest dishonor is not in the doing; it's in the getting caught.

    The Tour will live on . . . the average American's interest may wax and wane, but it's just another day at the races over there.

  10. #35
    Senior Member capejohn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalterMitty
    I am afraid that given the history with Lance (and oil-for-food, weapons to Iran, basically, the history of French politics, policy and relationships internally and with the world at large for the past 300 years) I don't trust the French either.

    I spent significant time in France as well, and as near as I can tell, not even the French particularly like/trust the French. When it comes to losing their beloved TDF yet again to another *American*, well, very few French I knew would have considered a little hanky panky in the name of national pride to be beyond the pale.

    My guess is that at this point we all know where we stand and that won't be changed any time soon unless one or the other party admits error or fault. To paraphrase, I'd rather be facing a German trying to kill me than a Frenchman watching my back.
    This sounds like something one would hear on Fox News*.
    Last edited by capejohn; 08-08-06 at 07:48 AM.
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  11. #36
    Old Enough to Know Better WalterMitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capejohn
    This sounds like something one would hear on Fox News*.
    This sounds like something a bigot would say because he/she really canít think of anything intelligent to offer as a counter point of view. All he/she knows is, they donít like the opinion expressed.

    So out comes the ad hominem comment trying to belittle the position by suggesting that the opinion isnít based on a lifetime of experience including Education and Military service in Europe that occurred long before cable television programming existed. It certainly couldnít be based on a broad range of information sources (admittedly, mostly from the internet lately) that includes less and less from all TV sources.

    Rather, a closed little mind would lob a vacuous comment that should play well to other like-minded shallow thinkers.

    If you donít like my opinion, letís hear something intelligent about how the TDF and the French administration have been paragons of fair-play and consistency. Then I could counter with examples of French judges taking bribes at Olympic skating venues. You could respond with something else that had some thought or history behind it. It would be possible then, just perhaps, to have a discussion on this discussion board and one or both of us might learn something.

    Save your playground taunts for when you can deliver them in person.

  12. #37
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    As several commentators have noted, this will likely play out over several months. Landis maintains his innocence at the moment.
    There exist a variety of possible means of hanky-panky. Could Landis have been given a testosterone "mickey" by his team? Certainly within the realm of possibility... The director, seeing apparent victory slip from his grasp, gives an order to the trainer to see that Landis' gets a little "help" in his IV fluid or whatever...
    As noted, the French officials might be mighty tired of seeing Americans on the podium; more room for hanky-panky exists.
    'Twill be hard to prove, I imagine.

  13. #38
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    IMO I think it's sour grapes by the French. How would you feel to get
    you ass kicked by a come from behind guy who has dead bone in one
    hip??

    Floyd passed all the test but one which is enough to ballyhoo as a "foul"
    to embarass the Americans which is all the French want. I really feel
    sorry for the fella who finished second as the title will be sullied and
    worthless to him due to the French twisting of the facts.

    Remember, It was a French judge who sold out in ice skating to cause the
    olympic gold to wind up being awarded twice while the voting system to got
    a total overhaul to prevent judge cheating.
    Last edited by Nightshade; 08-09-06 at 11:05 AM.
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
    I dislike clipless pedals on any city bike since I feel they are unsafe.

    Originally Posted by krazygluon
    Steel: nearly a thousand years of metallurgical development
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  14. #39
    Old Enough to Know Better WalterMitty's Avatar
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    Here's a summary that covers some important points:

    http://cbs2.com/topstories/local_story_208150214.html

    The money quotes come from Lance Armstrong in the last 3-4 paragraphs regarding the lab that is reporting the bad results.

    For the record, I don't care much about the TDF. I probably didn't see 30 minutes of it, total. But there are people that do care about it enough to make it their life's work. I think it's a crying shame that those people have to tolerate the hijinx surrounding the TDF.

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by dminor
    I hope Floyd's clean; I just don't know what to think yet. But let's face it: one way or the other this incident is not going to irreparably damage the TDF. Cheating and European mega-sports go hand in hand. Always have, always will. It's part of the sports religion over there. I don't care whether it's TDF, the ISDE, European motocross (you know, before we Yanks reinvented it) or the Olympics, cheating is part of the sports culture over there. The biggest dishonor is not in the doing; it's in the getting caught.

    The Tour will live on . . . the average American's interest may wax and wane, but it's just another day at the races over there.
    No, it's not part of the sport religion over here, where I am at the moment, it's the fact that Europeans take the issue of doping more seriously than you do in the US. Look at all your second rate sports where a blind eye has been turned to doping for years - baseball, foot(?)ball, ice hockey, basketball etc. Doping tests began in the TdF in the 70s - they might not have resulted in eradicating this scourge, but at least the organisers tried. US sports are still in the Dark Ages when it comes to their attitude towards drugs.
    BTW, isn't Gatlin American? And why did it take all that time for it to be revealed that he was nailed for drug taking in April?!!!!

    And as for the people who are ranting about the French not liking the Americans, recent Pew studies show that most countries don't like America, but a large part the American population is so out of touch with the rest of the world that they still think they are loved. Sad, but true.

  16. #41
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    >>Education and Military service in Europe>>

    How does that qualify as European experience? You probably spent most of your time in a US ghetto (military base) surrounded by your fellow countrymen.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by capejohn
    This sounds like something one would hear on Fox News*.
    To paraphrase, I'd rather be facing a German trying to kill me than a Frenchman watching my back.

    Not exactly...

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." --General George S. Patton

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedgoudy
    As a regular poster on a 50+ Forum
    that is primarily populated with men,
    I would like to seriously suggest that
    many of us could use some T too, and
    I intend to talk to my doctor about it
    when I see him tomorrow. If not that,
    then I may start taking DHEA again
    which is recommended for men over
    45 to boost their T production levels,
    AND their libidos.

    Seriously.

    only problem with our age of 50+ and using testestrone it increases the risk/chances of developing a cancer. When my thyroid went to crap i was placed on testestrone patches for well over a year. and the major concerns besides trying to level my thyroid out was the chance of developing a malignant process.

    Now maybe this was physcological but I did feel like it increased my powerness in cycling as well as weight lifting, and yes it does increase your libido. Once my thyroid became under control with synthyroid
    I was immediately taken off of the patch.
    "Advantages Must Be Pressed, Disadvantages Must Be Overcome"

  19. #44
    Old Enough to Know Better WalterMitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    >>Education and Military service in Europe>>

    How does that qualify as European experience? You probably spent most of your time in a US ghetto (military base) surrounded by your fellow countrymen.
    An incorrect assumption consistent with your previous post. I was at an isolated assignment and lived 22km from the nearest military installation of any type in an apartment/home of a local host. I petitioned my local Commander that available housing was unsuitable/insufficient and recieved not only permission to find my own accomodations as a single NCO, but also received a housing allowance in my paycheck that covered the cost (mostly). I lived in a non-military town (*any* military) and I traveled extensively by bike and eurailpass as well as other methods without a trip back to the US for my entire assignment.

    You don't know much. While there were "Barracks Rats" that were pissed off about being sent to a foriegn country to face off against the Warsaw Pact (out numbered 10 to 1) for a sometimes ungrateful population, many of us took the opportunity to see as much of the place as our modest paychecks and restrictive security clearances would allow. The opposite of your flavor of bigotry were my American detractors that accused me of "going native". At the end of my tour my Landlord (and kugel team partner) asked me to consider taking a "European Out" and going into business with him in his plumbing company. His Sons had shown no interest in the business and he (a WWII vet) thought enough of me to make this offer. I get homesick even now thinking about what might have been.

    So don't talk to me about having a superficial experience in Europe. I'll put my years living in Germany up against your "trips" any day.

    In my trips to France I alternated in permitting the locals to believe I was American, German, British, etc based soley on whatever assumptions they came up with first. It was fun and I was young. The worst thing I could have done is travel through the country side and permit someone to believe I was a Parisian. That's right, better treatment as a German tourist than a Parisian.

    I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, but I have no delusions regarding US popularity, bogus Pew studies and your smilie notwithstanding. My point, which is indisputable even by most French, is that they have an outsized view of themselves and their importance in the world; and have a history of making decisions and taking actions they believe will be in their favor even when it results in greater harm to themselves and anyone that allied with them, on any subject, in any endeavor.

    I'm not a French basher (much) however, as eloquently stated by a past failed US Presidential candidate (who is known as being sympathetic to the French, if not actually French) whether he thought the French were good friends said: "The French are the French". That pretty much sums it up. If you ever meet John Kerry, you might ask him what he meant by that.

  20. #45
    Old Enough to Know Better WalterMitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by duhhuh
    To paraphrase, I'd rather be facing a German trying to kill me than a Frenchman watching my back.

    Not exactly...

    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." --General George S. Patton
    Your quote is more accurate of course. That's why I called my comment a "paraphrase".

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalterMitty
    An incorrect assumption consistent with your previous post. I was at an isolated assignment and lived 22km from the nearest military installation of any type in an apartment/home of a local host. I petitioned my local Commander that available housing was unsuitable/insufficient and recieved not only permission to find my own accomodations as a single NCO, but also received a housing allowance in my paycheck that covered the cost (mostly). I lived in a non-military town (*any* military) and I traveled extensively by bike and eurailpass as well as other methods without a trip back to the US for my entire assignment.

    You don't know much. While there were "Barracks Rats" that were pissed off about being sent to a foriegn country to face off against the Warsaw Pact (out numbered 10 to 1) for a sometimes ungrateful population, many of us took the opportunity to see as much of the place as our modest paychecks and restrictive security clearances would allow. The opposite of your flavor of bigotry were my American detractors that accused me of "going native". At the end of my tour my Landlord (and kugel team partner) asked me to consider taking a "European Out" and going into business with him in his plumbing company. His Sons had shown no interest in the business and he (a WWII vet) thought enough of me to make this offer. I get homesick even now thinking about what might have been.

    So don't talk to me about having a superficial experience in Europe. I'll put my years living in Germany up against your "trips" any day.

    In my trips to France I alternated in permitting the locals to believe I was American, German, British, etc based soley on whatever assumptions they came up with first. It was fun and I was young. The worst thing I could have done is travel through the country side and permit someone to believe I was a Parisian. That's right, better treatment as a German tourist than a Parisian.

    I'm sorry your feelings are hurt, but I have no delusions regarding US popularity, bogus Pew studies and your smilie notwithstanding. My point, which is indisputable even by most French, is that they have an outsized view of themselves and their importance in the world; and have a history of making decisions and taking actions they believe will be in their favor even when it results in greater harm to themselves and anyone that allied with them, on any subject, in any endeavor.

    I'm not a French basher (much) however, as eloquently stated by a past failed US Presidential candidate (who is known as being sympathetic to the French, if not actually French) whether he thought the French were good friends said: "The French are the French". That pretty much sums it up. If you ever meet John Kerry, you might ask him what he meant by that.
    I admit it - incorrect assumption - sorry, but then you, Mr Wonderful, should not assume that I only have the experience of a trip. I'm from the UK, have lived in Europe (in more than one country), spent years travelling there (East and West) on business and pleasure. I have also visited some 70 or more countries worldwide in my lifetime, so probably have an all-round broader experience than you do.

    I am also old enough to remember when, at the end of the war, we had German prisoners working on utilities where I lived and whose behavior was much preferred to American military personnel, with their brash, disrespectful attitude toward the locals -still prevalent in Iraq, I believe.

    However, you and I can agree on one thing - the French are the French, but to add to that I would suggest that most of what you say about the French is applicable to America these days, at least in the eyes of much of the rest of the world. As I said before, it's sad, but a fact. But, then, you wouldn't know this because yours is experience is of 50-odd years ago and I guess you don't read much outside of the sports pages.

    My feelings are not hurt - I was trying to offer an opinion, but you blow hard, in your ignorance and closed mindedness dismiss everything anyone else comments on. Bogus Pew studies? What are you on about? Read ®America against the World® by Andrew Kohut and you might learn something.

  22. #47
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    Hey I kind of feel like I am over in the Roadcycling forum where I hang out most of the time!

    Kenal0

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    [/QUOTE]And as for the people who are ranting about the French not liking the Americans, recent Pew studies show that most countries don't like America, but a large part the American population is so out of touch with the rest of the world that they still think they are loved. Sad, but true.[/QUOTE]
    Well they sure love our money and have no problem accepting that!
    Foreign Aid in Millions
    USA 27,457
    Japan 13,101
    UK 10,754
    France 10,059
    Germany 9,915
    Netherlands 5,131
    Italy 5,053
    Canada 3,731
    Sweden 3,280
    Spain 3,123
    Norway 2,775
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    Switzerland 1,771
    Australia 1,666
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    Kenal0

  24. #49
    just keep riding BluesDawg's Avatar
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    The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

  25. #50
    The Strong Silent Type Marcel Diegeau's Avatar
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    Last edited by Marcel Diegeau; 08-11-06 at 11:49 PM.

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