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  1. #51
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    ((Well they sure love our money and have no problem accepting that!))

    You might want to compare what the US and other countries donate vs. their respective GNPs; you will find that the US is amongst the meanest at less than 1%.

  2. #52
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    I found some actual numbers:

    "The most generous country is Denmark which contributes $1.04 in aid for every $100 earned as GDP. The next two are Norway & the Netherlands. The US is 22nd on this metric with 4 cents contributed for every $100 earned."

    That's 0.4%!!! How generous is that?

    Again it's a myth in much of the US that Americans are the most generous people on the planet, but the numbers don't support that.
    Last edited by Artmo; 08-11-06 at 02:44 PM.

  3. #53
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    My point was not how much we donate compared to the GNP, my point was no matter how much or little it is these countries take it. If they think so little of us why, accept it. It is a very simplistic over simplified statement that has no place on the Bike Forum and can only stir emotions which are rivaled by the question Brooks or No Brooks?

    Kenal0

  4. #54
    Senior Member trackhub's Avatar
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    My 2 ˘ worth on this: First, I am open to the possibility that Landis may have cheated. Heck, maybe it was even one of these "take this stuff, it'll never show up on the test" bits. If he did in fact cheat, well, that's a disgrace, and he'll wear it for a long time.

    But, I'm not totally convinced. There is an enormous amount of money involved in pro level bike racing. There are also lots of huge egos involved. Lots of money, mixed with lots of huge egos can make some people do rather nasty things to each other. Add in a little dash of "The Europeans can't stand another American winning a race they consider to be their own", and you've got quite a hot mix.

    This French lab says their test are fool proof. Would it have been possible for someone to sabotage the tests, say by sneaking into the lab after hours, and corrupting the test results somehow? I mean, just how tight and controlled is security? Could someone with access to the racers food or beverages have done something? perhaps a nice bribe to a member of a kitchen staff, or wait staff maybe. Lots of things to consider here. I've been working in the technology sector for thirty years, and I know that when someone says something is foolproof, it isn't.

    As one of my shop stewards says, "something smells bad".

    Well, that's my 2 ˘.

    You know, we now have at least two generations who don't know what this " ˘ " is.
    "The People will believe what the Media tells them they believe". George Orwell.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    I found some actual numbers:

    "The most generous country is Denmark which contributes $1.04 in aid for every $100 earned as GDP. The next two are Norway & the Netherlands. The US is 22nd on this metric with 4 cents contributed for every $100 earned."

    That's 0.4%!!! How generous is that?

    Again it's a myth in much of the US that Americans are the most generous people on the planet, but the numbers don't support that.

    Why don't you compare the GDP and then look at the numbers. I think the actual dollar amounts speak for themselves. Figures never lie, but liars figure.
    "I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me." --General George S. Patton

    Best regards,

    Duhhuh

  6. #56
    I need more cowbell. Digital Gee's Avatar
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    Ever wish you hadn't started a thread?
    Visit my blog! The Leadership Almanac
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  7. #57
    OM boy cyclezen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Gee
    Ever wish you hadn't started a thread?
    not like having kids - kids are FOREVER, your kids...

    from the nanosec you hit the 'submit' button, your post and thread are no longer yours...
    so regrets should be about as long as the fleeting ownership of any thread...

    BTW, despite the glut of Flandis threads, there's always room for good discussion, even if it goes sideways a bit.

    OT. Even though I'm badly flawed by my pragmatism there are times when 'gut' overrides everything else.
    My money is on Floyd. Let my whole head turn gray if Floyd knowingly 'juiced' during this tour.

  8. #58
    Banned. Webb Diego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digital Gee
    Ever wish you hadn't started a thread?
    Wishing is for sissies and grade school girls, DG, and if you haven't learned that by now, you probably never will. Oh yeah, I hear all the arguments. "Wishing's is good for the soul." "300 million 5th graders can't be wrong." "You can lead a camel to the wishing well, but you can't make him throw in any loose change." But you know what? By the time you get done making out your wish list, there's about a thousand felons back on the street because some liberal, soft headed judge tossed out their conviction on a technicality, and the cops who patrol the street so you can safely sit at home have to clean up the mess. Yeah, that's what I said, the mess. The human mess of thieves, *******, murderers, and unemployed Democrats just looking for the slightest crack in the thin blue line that keeps us all safe for another day. Oh sure, anyone with an 8th grade education can become a cop. But how many 8th graders sign up for the force before the 9th grade? How about none? Because kiddo, there aren't any video games in the Police Academy, and that eliminates today's youth, plain and simple. So where does that leave all the law abiding citizens of this great country when they dial 911 and get some 17 year old soda jerk on the line, hopped up on who knows what? Nowhere. Which is where you are headed, Buddy Boy, as long as wishing for a better world is all you do.
    Last edited by Webb Diego; 08-12-06 at 03:02 AM.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenal0
    My point was not how much we donate compared to the GNP, my point was no matter how much or little it is these countries take it. If they think so little of us why, accept it. It is a very simplistic over simplified statement that has no place on the Bike Forum and can only stir emotions which are rivaled by the question Brooks or No Brooks?

    Kenal0
    Fair comment. I'll desist from further comment

  10. #60
    The Strong Silent Type Marcel Diegeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    Fair comment. I'll desist from further comment

  11. #61
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    !!
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  12. #62
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    Professional sports, including cycling, is big business and primarily entertainment. Let the pros dope all they want under a doctor's supevision, so they can thrill us with what are truly super-human performances. The temptations to dope are too great to ever control doping in the pro ranks of any sport because of the financial payoffs involved. Keeping amateur sports clean, should be the main focus of anti-doping efforts, especially when they involve kids and teenagers.

    I want to believe Lance, Tyler, and Floyd, but I expect they all have cheated to some extent or another in their careers given the doping culture in cycling and the need to place ridiculously high physical demands on their bodies in order to win.

  13. #63
    Old fart redden's Avatar
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    +1!

  14. #64
    Senior Member trackhub's Avatar
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    Mrs. Bates?!?!?
    "The People will believe what the Media tells them they believe". George Orwell.

  15. #65
    lunatic fringe Dogbait's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenal0
    My point was not how much we donate compared to the GNP, my point was no matter how much or little it is these countries take it. If they think so little of us why, accept it. It is a very simplistic over simplified statement that has no place on the Bike Forum and can only stir emotions which are rivaled by the question Brooks or No Brooks?

    Brooks!

  16. #66
    just keep riding BluesDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbait
    Brooks!
    +1
    The more you ride your bike, the less your ass will hurt.

  17. #67
    Senior Member CrossChain's Avatar
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    -1.
    Riding and aging don't get easier, you just get slower at slowing down.] (FiftyPlus observation inspired by G. Lemond.)

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    I found some actual numbers:

    "The most generous country is Denmark which contributes $1.04 in aid for every $100 earned as GDP. The next two are Norway & the Netherlands. The US is 22nd on this metric with 4 cents contributed for every $100 earned."

    That's 0.4%!!! How generous is that?

    Again it's a myth in much of the US that Americans are the most generous people on the planet, but the numbers don't support that.
    Then we ought to simply cut the foreign aid out altogether. Why should the US donate a hundred billion dollars in foreign aid only to have jackasses such as Artmo tell us that we ought to give more?

    By the way - the USA tends to fund Democracies more than Dictatorships. And funny thing - Democracies are generally run by the lower classes instead of military officers or royal families tend to have a great deal MORE corruption than dictatorships where you can lose your life for stealing from the King.

    Idiots who think they know so much cry about it when the USA funds petty dictators and cry about it when the money they hand out to foreign democracies ends up corrupting officials and bureaucrats. We should not hand out any money at all as far as I'm concerned. Now we see Artmo crying because we aren't spreading enough corruption around the world.

    Now to the point - "The French" are not a homogenous group of American hating faireys. In fact, the average Frenchman is about as fine a fellow as you'll ever meet anywhere. French bureaucrats and certainly French aristocrats are about as snobby as they get but not necessarily bad people. Though some of them you'd like to kick in the butt.

    I do NOT doubt that the test results are as accurate as they could make them. I do question the accuracy of the tests in light of the stupid claims I've seen. For instance - the C13/C12 ratios for natural testosterone run something like -22 to -28. For plant derived testosterone it runs something like -25 to -30. As you can see there's an overlap. So not only do they have to be extremely accurate at this measurement but they have to be extremely accurate in measuring the C13/C12 ratio in the secondary test which I believe is Cholesterol. They use this to judge the "normal" ratio in the body which is affected by the diet you eat.

    To claim that there's NO possible way that the tests can be wrong or misinterpretted isn't just an egotistical overstatement, it's an outright lie.
    Last edited by cyclintom; 08-12-06 at 07:47 PM.

  19. #69
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    ...best thread ever...

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by cyclintom
    Then we ought to simply cut the foreign aid out altogether. Why should the US donate a hundred billion dollars in foreign aid only to have jackasses such as Artmo tell us that we ought to give more?

    By the way - the USA tends to fund Democracies more than Dictatorships. And funny thing - Democracies are generally run by the lower classes instead of military officers or royal families tend to have a great deal MORE corruption than dictatorships where you can lose your life for stealing from the King.

    Idiots who think they know so much cry about it when the USA funds petty dictators and cry about it when the money they hand out to foreign democracies ends up corrupting officials and bureaucrats. We should not hand out any money at all as far as I'm concerned. Now we see Artmo crying because we aren't spreading enough corruption around the world.

    Now to the point - "The French" are not a homogenous group of American hating faireys. In fact, the average Frenchman is about as fine a fellow as you'll ever meet anywhere. French bureaucrats and certainly French aristocrats are about as snobby as they get but not necessarily bad people. Though some of them you'd like to kick in the butt.

    I do NOT doubt that the test results are as accurate as they could make them. I do question the accuracy of the tests in light of the stupid claims I've seen. For instance - the C13/C12 ratios for natural testosterone run something like -22 to -28. For plant derived testosterone it runs something like -25 to -30. As you can see there's an overlap. So not only do they have to be extremely accurate at this measurement but they have to be extremely accurate in measuring the C13/C12 ratio in the secondary test which I believe is Cholesterol. They use this to judge the "normal" ratio in the body which is affected by the diet you eat.

    To claim that there's NO possible way that the tests can be wrong or misinterpretted isn't just an egotistical overstatement, it's an outright lie.
    Since we've come to name-calling, pea brain, I never suggested that the US should give more. I was merely correcting a misapprehension held by many that the US is the most generous with foreign aid.

    As for funding democracies, you might want to look back at how the US for example funded Iraq (Saddam) against Iran in the 80s and all the funding that went to S. American dictators when it was politically expedient. But the US is by no means alone in this kind of thing.

    Isn't there enough corruption in the US government? After all, who runs Congress? Big business, the NRA, Jewish lobby etc etc. And that's democracy??? Look in the mirror matey before you start throwing rocks at others.

    Oh so you are a high resolution isotopic mass spectroscopist, too. Ha! Strange that they always seem to make mistakes with Americans' samples, innit? Must be a nefarious plot by the Euros again 'cos an American wouldn't possibly cheat, would he/she.
    Yes, there is always room for error in any analytical chemistry technique, (I am a lapsed analytical chemist) and the validity of a technique is based upon statistical studies over many analyses, so presumably the IOC, UCI etc have been happy with the margins of error for high res MS for testosterone/epitestosterone, especially when a B sample also tests positive. Do you really believe that someone doctored both samples or screwed up the analysis both times? Get real! It's more likely that Landis' himself was doctored either with or without his knowledge.

    Can I go back to sleep now?

  21. #71
    just keep riding BluesDawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Paulie
    ...best thread ever...
    you bet
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  22. #72
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    Landis

    Fast recovery from testosterone ingestion could -- could it possibly be explained buy "transfusions"?

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    Since we've come to name-calling, pea brain, I never suggested that the US should give more. I was merely correcting a misapprehension held by many that the US is the most generous with foreign aid.
    Then why did you fail to note the AMOUNTS given instead of the percentage? That was a purposeful deceit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    As for funding democracies, you might want to look back at how the US for example funded Iraq (Saddam) against Iran in the 80s and all the funding that went to S. American dictators when it was politically expedient. But the US is by no means alone in this kind of thing.
    Well why don't you explain to us the best thing to do to have limited the expansion of Iranian extremism? Hindsight is always 20-20 especially from those who couldn't find their butts using both hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    Isn't there enough corruption in the US government? After all, who runs Congress? Big business, the NRA, Jewish lobby etc etc.
    Thanks for the demostration of antisemitism along with your complete ignorance of the real world. You can go back to your antiwar demonstations now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    Oh so you are a high resolution isotopic mass spectroscopist, too.
    No, but I was on the design team for the first fixed and the first adjustable wavelength HPLC detectors for Altex Scientific/Beckman Instruments as well as working on the designs of HPLC high pressure pumps, system controllers, gel phoresis drivers and several other projects before moving on to artificial heart drivers, respiratory gas analyzers and the like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    Strange that they always seem to make mistakes with Americans' samples, innit?
    Not nearly as strange as the fact that it was only the American results which were leaked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    Yes, there is always room for error in any analytical chemistry technique, (I am a lapsed analytical chemist) and the validity of a technique is based upon statistical studies over many analyses,
    Then you won't feel put out explaining that. Exactly how does that relate to a modest sample which contains a tiny fraction of testosterone? Since I noted that the ratios of carbon overlap and WADA ASSUMES that the "calibration" test on cholesterol will contain the same ratio I would like to know why you failed to comment on that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    so presumably the IOC, UCI etc have been happy with the margins of error for high res MS for testosterone/epitestosterone, especially when a B sample also tests positive.
    Ahh, yes, you have a tight grasp on how tests are approved for WADA and the UCI I see. Perhaps you'd like to relate the process by which tests are designed?

    Quote Originally Posted by Artmo
    Do you really believe that someone doctored both samples or screwed up the analysis both times? Get real! It's more likely that Landis' himself was doctored either with or without his knowledge.
    You claim to be a qualified analytical chemist and then say something like that? Exactly WHEN was it that you practiced analytical chemistry? When was it that you used HPLC, Gel Phoresis or GCMS?

    1) Since BOTH A and B samples come out of the same urine cup all that would be necessary to "doctor" the sample would be to put a single drop of testosterone in the bottom of the sample cup. It would be completely invisible and both samples would then yield precisely the same E/T ratios and carbon ratios.

    2) The lab that performed the analysis has had extremely questionable ethical violations. They released information on Armstrong and now the possibility of a leak (you can BET that the reality of it was that someone at the UCI was asked for comments on Landis positive test) had the UCI releasing information on Floyd BEFORE HE WAS EVEN INFORMED! That alone voids the results of any testing. If a lab doesn't have enough control of their personnel to guard the results WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE PUBLIC IN ANY EVENT, then their testing process cannot be any more secure.

    3) WADA and the UCI have now chaged the T/E ratios for further testing from 6:1 to 4:1. 5% of those tested will have false positives with this ratio. When you look at the numbers of positives for testosterone, they are less than a percent. Explain that.

  24. #74
    Geezer Member Grampy™'s Avatar
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    >>Grampy™ leans over and checks Artmo's riddled body for signs of life.......... Cyclintom blows the smoke off the barrel of his six shooter.........
    Carpe who?

  25. #75
    Old Enough to Know Better WalterMitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampy™
    >>Grampy™ leans over and checks Artmo's riddled body for signs of life.......... Cyclintom blows the smoke off the barrel of his six shooter.........
    I count more than 6 hits without a pause. Either his reloads are as slick as wet glass or he's using a high cap semi-auto.


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