Bike Forums

Bike Forums (http://www.bikeforums.net/forum.php)
-   Fifty Plus (50+) (http://www.bikeforums.net/fifty-plus-50/)
-   -   Looks like Floyd cheated... (http://www.bikeforums.net/fifty-plus-50/217018-looks-like-floyd-cheated.html)

Digital Gee 08-06-06 01:16 PM

Looks like Floyd cheated...
 
I'm not a big TDF fan -- i don't really understand a lot of it. But I was so excited about Floyd Landis' performance and his big comeback. You don't have to be a cycling expert to appreciate what he did.

But now it looks like he did, indeed, cheat. I'm am so disappointed that once again, someone has to cheat to win. Whether it's in athletics, or business, or whatever else, I just get tired of people cheating to win. It just sickens me.

Sure, he'll appeal, and perhaps he will prevail. But I doubt it. Damn I hate this!

roccobike 08-06-06 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital Gee
I'm not a big TDF fan -- i don't really understand a lot of it. But I was so excited about Floyd Landis' performance and his big comeback. You don't have to be a cycling expert to appreciate what he did.

But now it looks like he did, indeed, cheat. I'm am so disappointed that once again, someone has to cheat to win. Whether it's in athletics, or business, or whatever else, I just get tired of people cheating to win. It just sickens me.

Sure, he'll appeal, and perhaps he will prevail. But I doubt it. Damn I hate this!

DG, I tried to think of something funny to say in response, but you're right and this is not a funny issue. No matter what the outcome, it hurts cycling. On the other hand, I'm glad the officials are handing out stiff penalties. IMHO basketball handed out slaps on the wrist and in the long run it hurt their image. If cycling sticks to this hardball approach, maybe it will help the sport long term.

CrossChain 08-06-06 01:51 PM

Anybody read Dave Shields' TDF novel "The Tour"? Probably won't be in the NYT Review of Books but a great summer-on-the-patio read. He tries to image the pressures on riders to use performance drugs. As Greg Lemond observed in an interview last night...."if you want to beat other guys on drugs then you take drugs, too". Part of the appeal of European bike racing tradition has been the strange mix of glory and shadiness....a real carnival of human life.

Tyler, Floyd.....somehow our guys should be above this. And, yes, DG, it is discouraging and a nose-wrinkler and, if true, makes that glorious 17th stage a real sham and shame.

centexwoody 08-06-06 02:12 PM

The Houston Chronicle article today was mostly from physicians who questioned how Floyd could have been tested 8 times during the Tour, the 1st 6 were negative, the 7th one turned up the questionable testosterone/epitestosterone imbalance & artificial testosterone and the final & 8th one 2 days later was once again negative. The medicos said that it was not possible for the endocrine system to flush itself clean in just 2 days. So what gives?

I must confess to being suspicious of the lab & the 'authorities' who are in charge of this...

Even if Floyd were using artifical Testo, it COULD NOT DISAPPEAR FROM HIS SYSTEM IN TWO DAYS! Perhaps there is hanky-panky in the testing system? Perhaps there is true corruption & targeting against Landis? I'm not much for conspiracy theories but when the evidence "just doesn't add up" as one of the internists with the ADA said, then when is someone going to test the testers: who is watching the watchers?

SemperFi 08-06-06 03:16 PM

It's all such a sad affair especially after that Stage 17 comeback. You want to believe in feel good stories and that Floyd's performance was one for the ages and simply the result of a champion who would not give up regardless of the odds against him. Everything's in question now...Floyd, the testing agency, the whole damn thing.
If he cheated then obviously it's all on him. But if he didn't, and the testers are the cheats, then that's probably the bigger story and the more serious one at that.

cyclintom 08-06-06 03:21 PM

Let's at least get it correct - it DOESN'T look like Floyd cheated. It looks like he tested positive. Note that there are studies that show naturally occuring e/t ratios as high as 12:1.

DougG 08-06-06 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyclintom
Let's at least get it correct - it DOESN'T look like Floyd cheated. It looks like he tested positive. Note that there are studies that show naturally occuring e/t ratios as high as 12:1.

Yes, but how could it "naturally" be that high in one test and not in tests taken a few days before and after? And I guess there's a question of how even an artificial dosing could spike like that for a single day's results. I think we should all step back until someone comes up with a believable biochemical explanation.

Carusoswi 08-06-06 03:40 PM

The media tends to run with the most spectacular headlines - I keep seeing headlines and even passages in news articles stating that Floyd had an elevated testosterone level. This is simply not true. His ratio on one test was out of balance.

As others have pointed out, it doesn't add up. First of all, there was no racing advantage to be gained from a one day spike - even if, for argument's sake, you assume that he cheated. Secondly, there is almost no way he could be clean on all the days surrounding the one test that is in question.

I believe that Landis will eventually prevail - and I also have faith that he will never confess to something he didn't do.

I am surprised after all the years the "authorities" chased Lance that the media, his cycling team, and others who should no better give up on Landis so quickly.

I, too, am disappointed to see the outcome shrouded in controversy - but, I'm not ready to give up on Landis just yet.

We all knew that it was likely the B sample would be consistent with the A sample, so that was no surprise to me. I don't understand the bit about the synthetic testo, but I'm guessing that we will be offered some plausible explanation at some future date - and my money is still on Floyd - that he will, in the end, be exonerated.

I’ve read comments on other boards where posters proclaim with glee that these two tests prove that Floyd is a cheater and that “we” should just get over it - that Armstrong cheated but was just smarter than Landis in covering up his misdeeds.

For my part, I don’t view any of this politically – I don’t think this controversy stems from any intrigue or that the “French are out to get Landis.” And, of course, I truly believe that Landis did not cheat.

I may have to eat words from some part of the above paragraph – but, for now, I choose to believe in people. The apparent contradiction will one day be explained.

Caruso

DMF 08-06-06 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyclintom
Let's at least get it correct - it DOESN'T look like Floyd cheated. It looks like he tested positive.

I have to agree. While I understand that certain steroids can metabolize quickly so that only a single test will pick them up, it doesn't make sense to me that he would be using them. They don't have immediate effect. The isotope tests appear to show that there was something in his system, but it makes no sense that he or his doctor would have wanted to put it there.

Grampy™ 08-06-06 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cyclintom
Let's at least get it correct - it DOESN'T look like Floyd cheated. It looks like he tested positive. Note that there are studies that show naturally occuring e/t ratios as high as 12:1.

I agree..... Shame on anyone calling him a cheat. He tested ok before and after.... hmmmmmm how could that be? His sample was contaminated, either accidentally or purposely. I believe in my heart that any American that would have won the TDF would have had a "positive" test. Even if Floyd proves his innocence, the TDF officials will strip his title. Purely political. Isn't this the same lab that was called into question for very questionable procedures on Lance's samples? The lab is a farce, every medical expert I've seen interviewed has called this testing a joke.

BluesDawg 08-06-06 05:54 PM

I'm still holding on to a faint hope that Floyd is clean and that he'll be able to prove it, but I'm not betting the farm. I sure can't comment on any of the technical aspects of the testing, but it sure doesn't seem to me to be a well developed science. Looks to me like they are using some really iffy tests to make some awfully high impact findings. Poorly designed tests create too much controversy and actually could lead to more people doping if they think they can contest the results. If Floyd is innocent, he has been done a terrible injustice. If he is dirty, I hope he will come clean and help expose what must be a huge and widespread problem. The officials need to find better ways to combat the doping problem than making high profile disqualifications at major events. The way they are going about it now is really hurting the sport.

redden 08-06-06 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roccobike
DG, I tried to think of something funny to say in response, but you're right and this is not a funny issue. No matter what the outcome, it hurts cycling. On the other hand, I'm glad the officials are handing out stiff penalties. IMHO basketball handed out slaps on the wrist and in the long run it hurt their image. If cycling sticks to this hardball approach, maybe it will help the sport long term.

Might even have the same success that the "War on Drugs" had. Maybe a good "Just say no" campain is called for right now....who knows

I was wondering if there were an unlimited class like in motosports where anything goes and optimal performance at any cost is the goal. Then you would have various regulated classes. Which would get a greater audience?

a77impala 08-06-06 06:02 PM

Maybe I am just to trusting but I am willing to wait for the final outcome of this fiasco. I still think there could be a plausable explanation of why Landis's sample was contaminated. I don't trust the French as far as I could throw one, they have a dislike of this country and anything American. Right now I think the chances his sample was tampered with are more than 50/50. When and if Floyd admits doping I will change my opinion of him, but not until then!

centexwoody 08-06-06 07:23 PM

+1 on that, Grampy, and while the TEST shows something, there is not yet any evidence other than ONE TEST (with 2 samples) of any cheating.

I question the veracity, motives and honor of the lab doing these tests...

Digital Gee 08-06-06 07:28 PM

I hope you guys are right who say that Floyd didn't cheat. I so want that to be true!

nedgoudy 08-06-06 07:30 PM

As a regular poster on a 50+ Forum
that is primarily populated with men,
I would like to seriously suggest that
many of us could use some T too, and
I intend to talk to my doctor about it
when I see him tomorrow. If not that,
then I may start taking DHEA again
which is recommended for men over
45 to boost their T production levels,
AND their libidos.

Seriously.

cruzMOKS 08-06-06 08:21 PM

The only outcome of this is bad. If Landis did cheat then pro cycling will lose for the lack of trust of cyclists. If Landis did not cheat then the lab must have and that throws the whole sport into doubt. What good is a sport if the refs cheat.

2006 TDF started off crazy and it ended crazy.

My own gut feeling is that they both are cheating.

head_wind 08-06-06 08:34 PM

It has been alleged taking testosterone causes an instant hit. See: http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/10613.0.html. Other news is that in a couple of months there will be a court case in Denver where 4 or 5 junior racers are suing their coach for juicing them without their knowledge. They were junior and he demanded their trust. We'll see where that goes.

Following this and the recent Gatlin (track) episode it seems likely that the doping issue will take a new twist. The discussion in the Gatlin case leads to the inference (??) that the masseur applied testosterone in a cream or patch. Where this leads is 'someone did it to me'.

When they are measuring the t/e ratio (testosterone/epitestosterone ) anyone with more than 3 brain cells firing would dope an equal amount of e as t. Doping with t only seems profoundly stupid. Perhaps I don't understand some technicality.

It is all profoundly sad.

Louis 08-06-06 09:13 PM

I cannot help but wonder what Oscar Pereiro is thinking. If they hand the title to him would he even want it?

Of course he would accept, but what a terrible way to become the TdF winner. Kind of like kissing your sister.

Sandwarrior 08-07-06 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digital Gee
I hope you guys are right who say that Floyd didn't cheat. I so want that to be true!

I'll put my trust in Landis telling the truth. I would be willing to bet the lab that took/did the test are the ones who doctored it. If it was done in France you can bet those bastards had something to do with doctoring his test. The french just can't stand to have an American win again.

berts 08-07-06 04:30 AM

After having a very perturbing experience at a French border control some time ago, I do not trust the French. A suspicious coiled object was superimposed on an xray image of a jar of jam going through the security check. After sticking my hand in the jam and proving that there was no such object in the jar they let me pass. Thus although this may seem off subject - I would not be suprised if Landis' samples were spiked. If it came to Landis' word against the French Laboratory's I would bank on Landis.

rgerve 08-07-06 05:59 AM

Of course Flandis is telling the truth.
There is no doping in cycling. There never has been.
OneNut did it all naturally.
Nothing to see here.
Move along.

stonecrd 08-07-06 06:39 AM

It does not seem credible to me that FL can state he has normally high T since this should be easy to check in earlier samples. Chain of custody of his stage 17 samples may be an issue, but I don't really see it to be in anyone's interest, including the French, to have the winner disqualified. It hurts cycling and it hurts the TdF. So my current thinking is comming around to everyone at the top end of cycling is probably using PEDs of some type and Pereiro is just thinking, thank god they didn't catch me. I would love to be wrong about this, but look at all of cyclists that are currently involved in one way ot another.

Stevie47 08-07-06 07:05 AM

Ok, this is my only internet post on Floyd's situation: He either cheated or he didnt. If he did cheat, then I am sure that they all cheat at that level and more than likely so did Lance. That possibility is a shame because cycling is the only pro sport that I am interested in. Football, basketball, baseball, I've had it with all of them because of the attitudes, the drugs, and the behavior of the players. Now I may lose cycling to that also. A real bummer. All I know about Floyd is what I've seen in interviews and from how he rides and I have to say, I've always liked his style. He appears to be a stand up sort of guy. If that's true, and he did cheat (like all of them) I would think he might blow the whistle on the doping and come clean. Not only would that end his career, but many others around him also and I'm sure he wouldnt take that lightly. But who knows what he's really like, I used to think I'd like to hang out with O.J. Simpson too. :eek:

Now if he didnt cheat, then it comes down to the technicalities of the test and human responses to huge amounts of stress. I dont know squat about that but I dont believe the French conspiracy theory either. They were just as in awe of his Stage 17 ride as I was. Now dont get me wrong, their attitude towards the U.S. has pretty much sucked for a long time but I dont think this is part of that.

fifty5 08-07-06 07:16 AM

Floyd Landis' doping samples contained synthetic testosterone, indicating the Tour de France champion's elevated levels were not produced naturally.

They used carbon isotoping, which proved positive, for sythentic testosterone in his system.

There is a whole lot of discussion on Floyd's test results in the Tour de France forum.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:52 AM.