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Old 09-14-06, 01:53 PM   #26
will dehne
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Originally Posted by wagathon
Comparing similar models--as far as components go--you would be looking at a Pilot 5.2 if you want Shimano's Ultegra components. I think that all Pilots come with a triple so that's not an issue there and apparently the '07 Madone 5.0s come with a triple as well.
I am talking to 4 bike stores:
Two represent Trek. Both recommend Madone after much talk.
The third store recommends Specialized Roubaix. (cost more , but not unreasonable)
The fourth represents Litespeed and recommends Toscani. (also cost more)

None of these stores recommends Trek Pilot for my needs.
Question: Does anyone recommend purchasing a bike over Internet? Or is that a bad question?
I need size 58 cm, better gears than 39 ring and 32 cassette, better wheels than Bontrager Race.
I see that some purchase components and put them together. I wonder if that is a bad idea?
The other choice is to go shopping. So many choices.
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Old 09-14-06, 02:52 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by will dehne
I am talking to 4 bike stores:
Two represent Trek. Both recommend Madone after much talk.
The third store recommends Specialized Roubaix. (cost more , but not unreasonable)
The fourth represents Litespeed and recommends Toscani. (also cost more)

None of these stores recommends Trek Pilot for my needs.
Question: Does anyone recommend purchasing a bike over Internet? Or is that a bad question?
I need size 58 cm, better gears than 39 ring and 32 cassette, better wheels than Bontrager Race.
I see that some purchase components and put them together. I wonder if that is a bad idea?
The other choice is to go shopping. So many choices.
The Madone definitely has sharper frame angles and a shorter wheelbase. I'd say, if that bike fits the bill the best, then I would think that the Roubaix would be eliminated for sure as it probably has the longest wheelbase, and its loooong headtube would be a big departure from a bike with a racing heritage like a Madone.
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Old 09-14-06, 07:38 PM   #28
will dehne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wagathon
The Madone definitely has sharper frame angles and a shorter wheelbase. I'd say, if that bike fits the bill the best, then I would think that the Roubaix would be eliminated for sure as it probably has the longest wheelbase, and its loooong headtube would be a big departure from a bike with a racing heritage like a Madone.
Well, the single most importand purpose of this new bike is to chase as fast as possible XC with a group of over 30 bikers. Fully supported by SAG.
So you say that the Madone fits that bill better? The XC tour fastest biker used an Orbea. Nice bike.
The most popular bike was Litespeed Tuscani.
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Old 09-14-06, 07:51 PM   #29
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I'm a big fan of the Madone. I've had mine for about half a year now, have about 2500 miles on it so far, and love it. I test rode the Pilot and the Roubaix when shopping, but I liked the Madone significantly better. For me, an important difference was the geometry. The Madone, with its racing heritage, has a more aggressive geometry that will get you down and out of the wind better if you have the flexibility to deal with it. When I first got the Madone I was actually a little uncomfortable riding for long periods of time in the drops. But my flexibility has improved with time, and it now feels very good.

I can't say bad things about the Roubaix, however. My wife has one, and she loves it. Never been on a Litespeed Toscani, so no nothing useful to offer there.

I reckon that you're not going to go too far wrong with any of these, but given your stated objectives for the bike, the Madone sounds like a good choice if it feels comfortable on a test ride.
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Old 09-14-06, 08:05 PM   #30
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I believe Tuscany is Litespeed's general purpose tite bike....supposed to have a longish top tube...probably best to test ride it before making more assumptions. Speed-- whether to go more aero and aggressive on a Madone (to keep up with the leaders) or catch more wind on a laid back Pilot is half the question. The other is-- what will be more personally comfortable for the continuous 100+ mile days on a XC? Tough answers to extrapolate from short test rides and looking at the geometry table. Especially given big $$ involved.
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Old 09-14-06, 08:24 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Raketmensch
I'm a big fan of the Madone. I've had mine for about half a year now, have about 2500 miles on it so far, and love it. I test rode the Pilot and the Roubaix when shopping, but I liked the Madone significantly better. For me, an important difference was the geometry. The Madone, with its racing heritage, has a more aggressive geometry that will get you down and out of the wind better if you have the flexibility to deal with it. When I first got the Madone I was actually a little uncomfortable riding for long periods of time in the drops. But my flexibility has improved with time, and it now feels very good.

I can't say bad things about the Roubaix, however. My wife has one, and she loves it. Never been on a Litespeed Toscani, so no nothing useful to offer there.

I reckon that you're not going to go too far wrong with any of these, but given your stated objectives for the bike, the Madone sounds like a good choice if it feels comfortable on a test ride.
This post is very interesting for me. I hope the OP does not mind?
Raketmensch: Question: What do you think would happen to your average speed over 100 miles of riding your Madone visa the Roubaix? All other things being equal.
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Old 09-14-06, 08:27 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by CrossChain
I believe Tuscany is Litespeed's general purpose tite bike....supposed to have a longish top tube...probably best to test ride it before making more assumptions. Speed-- whether to go more aero and aggressive on a Madone (to keep up with the leaders) or catch more wind on a laid back Pilot is half the question. The other is-- what will be more personally comfortable for the continuous 100+ mile days on a XC? Tough answers to extrapolate from short test rides and looking at the geometry table. Especially given big $$ involved.
You could achieve just as aerodynamic positon using a Pilot frame--the wheelbase is not much longer and the headtube angle is average sharp at 73 too--but, it comes 25s and easily accommodates 28s whereas the Madone comes with 23s.
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Old 09-14-06, 08:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by CrossChain
I believe Tuscany is Litespeed's general purpose tite bike....supposed to have a longish top tube...probably best to test ride it before making more assumptions. Speed-- whether to go more aero and aggressive on a Madone (to keep up with the leaders) or catch more wind on a laid back Pilot is half the question. The other is-- what will be more personally comfortable for the continuous 100+ mile days on a XC? Tough answers to extrapolate from short test rides and looking at the geometry table. Especially given big $$ involved.
CC:
I would have gone the comfort route about a year ago. I have become tougher probably due to the 10,000 miles I am putting on this year. So I may as well go fast. The XC is no picnic no matter what you ride.
The guys with Orbea, Storck and Campagno were not sitting on comfort bikes and survived, so did I on an Aluminum Cannondale one size too large.
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Old 09-14-06, 08:59 PM   #34
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CC:
I would have gone the comfort route about a year ago. I have become tougher probably due to the 10,000 miles I am putting on this year. So I may as well go fast. The XC is no picnic no matter what you ride.
The guys with Orbea, Storck and Campagno were not sitting on comfort bikes and survived, so did I on an Aluminum Cannondale one size too large.
Will....with you blazing a trail into a high-powered 60's age level I have a bright light to follow as I turn 60 myself next spring. Ride on!!
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Old 09-14-06, 09:11 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by wagathon
You could achieve just as aerodynamic positon using a Pilot frame--the wheelbase is not much longer and the headtube angle is average sharp at 73 too--but, it comes 25s and easily accommodates 28s whereas the Madone comes with 23s.
Now that is important. Are you saying that the Madone will not accept 28s? These lousy southern roads require 28s. I know, been there.
It would be nice to try out these bikes. I have trouble finding a bike store who will accommodate me.
I can get a test bike but never the one I want to buy. That one I have to buy on blind faith. That is why I have so many questions.
Wonder If I should contact Trek direct? I hear they have bike tours with their bikes of course.
Anyone know of that?
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Old 09-14-06, 09:13 PM   #36
will dehne
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Will....with you blazing a trail into a high-powered 60's age level I have a bright light to follow as I turn 60 myself next spring. Ride on!!
Yeeah, perhaps we can tour together sometime.
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Old 09-14-06, 09:45 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by will dehne
Now that is important. Are you saying that the Madone will not accept 28s? These lousy southern roads require 28s. I know, been there.
It would be nice to try out these bikes. I have trouble finding a bike store who will accommodate me.
I can get a test bike but never the one I want to buy. That one I have to buy on blind faith. That is why I have so many questions.
Wonder If I should contact Trek direct? I hear they have bike tours with their bikes of course.
Anyone know of that?
You might check that out. I had a Bianchi with Ultegra that was made for 23s and the spacing was minimal. You could put a petite 28 on it--like a high pressure Gatorskin--but if you rode through a puddle, the dirt that the tire picked up would scrape on the brake housing it was so close. The 5.2 Pilot has Ultegra too but there's room for a 32 (I use a 25 front / 28 rear and it is easy to clean the bike around them).

Last edited by wagathon; 09-14-06 at 09:51 PM.
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Old 09-14-06, 10:50 PM   #38
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Raketmensch: Question: What do you think would happen to your average speed over 100 miles of riding your Madone visa the Roubaix? All other things being equal.
Interesting question. I'll assume you mean riding solo. It really depends on your hand position and how you set up the geometry of the bike. When I do a long solo ride -- especially on a flat-ish course -- and I'm going for maximum speed, I spend most of my time in the drops. If you compare your position in the drops on the Madone vs. your position in the drops on the Roubaix, for a conventional setup on both bikes, I think you might get an extra half a mph or so of average speed because of the more aggressive geometry of the Madone. It really is all about aerodynamics, though, and small changes in the setup could give you a different result. For example, depending on your choice of stem angle, you could easily set up a Madone and a Roubaix so there would be no appreciable difference in aerodynamics, and hence no appreciable difference in speed. (And forget all the hype about lightweight bikes. Having a bike that weighs sixteen pounds is cool, but the only place it will make you faster is brief accelerations and steep hills.)

In the end, of course, the most important thing is that you're comfortable. You can have the most aero position in the world -- fast in theory -- but if you're feeling hunched over and uncomforable, you won't be fast on the bike.
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Old 09-14-06, 11:13 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Raketmensch
. . . For example, depending on your choice of stem angle, you could easily set up a Madone and a Roubaix so there would be no appreciable difference in aerodynamics. . ..
Roubaix Expert Triple head tube length and angle, e.g., size 58: 215mm / 72.5 degrees

Madone SL 5.2 head tube length and angle, e.g., size 58: 140mm / 73.7

Choice of stem angle (and length) will make it easy to set these two bikes up to accommodate the same body position?

The Madone will allow a more aggresive position whereas the Roubaix is made for an upright position. It would be interesting to see if they could be set up to come close--in the middle--at the extremes of both bikes, e.g., a Roubaix with a negative rise stem mounted right on top of the headtube, and a Madone with a lot of exposed fork tube and a steeply angled stem. Rather than go any of those extremes at that size, for example, that is where you might consider a Pilot, perhaps taking advantage of the downward sloping top tube and sizing up if you want a modestly longer head tube length for a more upright body position.

Last edited by wagathon; 09-14-06 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 09-15-06, 06:54 AM   #40
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While not apples to apples my friend had a Kestral CF and when he had a BB failure (crack) he purchased a LiteSpeed Teramo from Competitive Cyclist for a great price. He now wishes he stayed with CF he likes the CF ride much better than the titanium. The other moral to this story is that he had purchased the Kestral from e-bay and without a bill of sale the best Kestral would do on the BB crack was a 30% discount on a new frame. So the big issue for an on-line sale is the warranty. Comptetitive Cyclist is a great place for getting high quality bikes on-line.

On the Pilot vs Madone, I got the Pilot because I was having fatigue problems in my elbows from an old injury. I thought a more upright position would help. I now find that just moving from my mtb with flat bars to race bars solved that problem so I am now planning to go back to a traditional geometry. The Madones are very nice but I see to many of them down here. I want something a bit more unique so I have been looking at the Orbea Opal and the Scott CR1
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Old 09-15-06, 07:25 AM   #41
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I like to thank the OP for this informative thread and the respondents for their (for me) valuable comments.
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