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Old 09-13-06, 05:13 PM   #1
CrossChain
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Frankie Andreu's Skeleton in the closet...worth commenting?

Frankie admits to a little doping, Lance feels moderately betrayed, cynics say, "So what's new", cycling naysayers rub their hands with glee................anyone wish to comment-- or are we all too weary of the issue?

*** And isn't Tyler's prohibition up this month?
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Old 09-13-06, 06:20 PM   #2
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A couple of thoughts...

Doping is dangerous not just for the pros, but more so for the juniors. Doping filters down to the junior ranks in every sport, and they're the ones taking risks with less "guidance" and for no money...just the distant hope of money. The number of junior cyclists who have died over the past 15 years due to doping is significant, but since they are quitely publicized, the general pulic is unaware of it. (The coaches passed out steriods in the weight room during football practice when I was in high school, and that was 1968, so this is nothing new.)

The other thought is that even if Lance Armstrong was clean, his team doped, so his wins are tainted. Cycling is truly a team sport, and the strength of the team is the cornerstone of any grand tour victory. Interesting that they don't test the entire team after every stage win...

And, we cant forget that before US Postal, Team Director Johann Bruyneel rode for Once team, which was racked with doping, and Armstong was with Motorola, another team devastated by doping.

It seems like the results and individual records in every sport in the past decade or so has to be taken with a grain of salt. Not only have many of the winners cheated, so have their competitors...so who knows who really accompished what?

Last edited by Big Paulie; 09-13-06 at 06:29 PM.
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Old 09-13-06, 06:28 PM   #3
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I have no idea why Frankie does what he does....... he seems determined to taint Lance's legacy though. Jealousy? Who knows....... I hope we've seen the last of Frankie, his 15 minutes is up.
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Old 09-13-06, 06:37 PM   #4
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Mixed feelings here. I find it stirring to see those old sepia toned photos of long dead TdF greats and consider what they did with outmoded equipment and training practices and not much more chemical boost that adrenaline and caffeine. I think of the minor discomfort I endure climbing the local grade which is no grade at all compared to what non-doped riders have done through clouds of pain and sacrifice unaided by more than competition and desire...encapsulated by Floyd's triumphant, should-have been-sepia-toned Stage 17 that finalized in dismal ambiguity.

The ethically tainted racing of today is sort of exciting, but with the edge taken off by so much sad revelation. BP's right..........maybe pro racing is evolving towards glitzy theatrics more like professional wrestling. Race leaders can do dope and gladiator style whack one another with folding chairs while climbing some col with a brutish crowd screaming for more.

Hide your embarassment long dead, sepia-toned heroes. And a rousing cheer for those current riders who are heroic no matter their placement for racing clean against the drugbots.
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Old 09-13-06, 07:44 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by CrossChain
I find it stirring to see those old sepia toned photos of long dead TdF greats and consider what they did with outmoded equipment and training practices and not much more chemical boost that adrenaline and caffeine.
What was it, the second year of the Tour that riders got caught hopping trains for shortcuts, and a decade later that the three top riders were disqualified for hopping cars during the mountainous night stages? And we won't even get into the cocaine use...

Yeah, things were better in the old days...

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Old 09-13-06, 08:04 PM   #6
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I'm not sure of the reasons for Frankie's recent statements, but having met him and seen how he acts around the cycling public, I find it hard to imagine that he has harmful intent. Frankie strikes me as one of the most gracious people and one of the most caring about the sport of bicycle racing, its participants and its fans of anyone involved. I certainly hope his 15 minutes are not up because we need his participation in the sport.
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Old 09-13-06, 10:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by FarHorizon
Depends on whether you think of cycling as sport or entertainment. As a sport, doping is cheating, and the dopers cheat the legit (non-doping) athletes out of fair wins. If bike racing is spectator entertainment, then whatever entertains the unwashed crowds is kosher. I am, indeed, weary of the issue. If doping is to be prohibited, then the tests must be more tamper-proof and unambiguous than they currently are. If doping is to be accepted, then there is no need for tests, and let the foolishness continue. In either case, the press should be shot.
+1
+1+ on the media

and add the great corrupter - money, and like hollyweird, nothing is beyond the realm of acceptable. As for Frankie, if his realization is genuine, then good on him. Won't be throwin any stones from my side considering my less than gleaming youth. Mistakes are made by all; forgiveness helps us live together and find the better side of most of us.
All of this is a lot less important than screwin the Planet for our children, stealing from the poor to give to the rich and sending our young off to kill and be killed.
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Old 09-14-06, 12:18 AM   #8
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I find Frankie Andreu's segments on OLN to be embarrasing. The guy stammers thru his script, he asks dumb, obvious questions, and anytime Lance answered, I always got the impression that he had no respect for Frankie and was only answering to be gracious to the OLN audience.

But having said that, I understand that Frankie is basically a good guy. I know Mike Walden thought well of him. And Frankie does seem to be honest, though a bit naive. But now all this is just my impression from the limited knowledge that I have; it's not meant to give a judgment, just my impression.

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Old 09-14-06, 12:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by lhbernhardt
I find Frankie Andreu's segments on OLN to be embarrasing. The guy stammers thru his script, he asks dumb, obvious questions, and anytime Lance answered, I always got the impression that he had no respect for Frankie and was only answering to be gracious to the OLN audience.

But having said that, I understand that Frankie is basically a good guy. I know Mike Walden thought well of him. And Frankie does seem to be honest, though a bit naive.
There needs to be a reality show on Comedy Central called, "When Athlete's Open Their Mouths."

The stream of available material would be endless...

Last edited by Big Paulie; 09-14-06 at 12:53 AM.
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Old 09-14-06, 07:09 AM   #10
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Warning: Temper your reading of this post with the knowledge that it is my knee jerk reaction to this issue.

I always find it highly suspect when athletes go to the media to disclose past mistakes in order "to help the sport". It always feels like they're just tyring to get another 15 minutes of fame. If Frankie (or any of the others who have abused drugs during their professional careers in cycling, baseball, track & field, etc.) really wants to have an impact, let him go to high schools and talk with students directly about the dangers, temptations, moral challenges, etc. Let him work with coaches to help them build athletes that despise the use of performance drugs. Let him write a book and then shun the media interviews. If Frankie did these things I'd be much more impressed with him.
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Old 09-14-06, 08:18 AM   #11
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Here's another thread on bikeforums about Frankie and his revelations. Andreu admits doping - NY Times
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Old 09-14-06, 08:20 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Az B
What was it, the second year of the Tour that riders got caught hopping trains for shortcuts, and a decade later that the three top riders were disqualified for hopping cars during the mountainous night stages? And we won't even get into the cocaine use...

Yeah, things were better in the old days...

Az
And lets not forget the reported use of the brandy and strychinine cocktail. Oh and how about those good old amphetamines?
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Old 09-14-06, 09:08 AM   #13
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This is old news - nearly two years. So why the story now?

Maybe we should be asking who's interest is served to dredge it up again.
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Old 09-14-06, 09:24 AM   #14
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Even though I will always remain a fan, I long ago gave up thinking pro sports was clean. No matter what sport it is. The fact that cycling is actually going through the process of attempting to clean up it's act publicly keeps it in higher regard in my mind than the others. The fact that many in years past were not caught because testing was not available or the substances were not illegal does not make them somehow less guilty in my mind. Cheating is cheating.

What I find disturbing is the trickle down alluded to in an earlier post. My daughter did her AT (Athletic Trainer) undergrad work at a Division lll college. She told me the use of steroids and other drugs was rampant. Division lll? Jeez. That's just sad.
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Old 09-14-06, 11:19 AM   #15
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I'm a lot more impressed with Frankie letting go of some ancient truths than with Tyler still claiming that he's innocent.

Tyler still has another two years to go unless he's on a strictly American team (no TDF) as I understand it, plus he may be close to a lifetime suspension based on the Operation Puerto thing.
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Old 09-14-06, 12:33 PM   #16
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Huh? Tyler is implicated in Op Puerto? More info please.
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Old 09-14-06, 02:15 PM   #17
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The use of drugs in most physical sports seems to be rampant. There are those that go out to cheat and take the known substances that are deemed to have a performance value and this goes from EPO to minor cold cures that aid breathing. Then there are the additives to training formulas that somehow seem to transform into a banned substance.

When I was running seriously- the only aids that were known were salt and sugar. Cold cures were an aspirin and if you were on some medication for an illness then you did not perform too well because of the illness. Actual drugs to aid your performance did not exist, or were not known off.

Even the training has changed and there are all the additives to enable you to train harder. In my day- if you trained harder- you either got better at your sport- or you overtrained and went downhill. Now- if you want to build up your muscles you take this additive- or if you want to improve your stamina you take that one. I can remember at one of the American Olympics (1980?) when Coe and Ovett were in the 800 and 1500metres- A mention was made of runners having a blood transfusion. What happened was that a few days before the event- a pint of your blood was taken and before the event- it was put back. An extra pint of blood to carry oxygen around the body in one of the hardest cardio vascular events. This practice was frowned upon but no-one was deemed to be taking drugs. There weren't any. Now the blood is taken out of the body and an additive put into the blood.

I am sorry but I look at all these top athletes and all I can think of is "What new undetectable drug have they found". I no longer think how good they are, or how fit they are. In some cases The protestations of innocence are believable and the actual athlete may be- but there are too many others behind him that could be trying to give him,or her, the edge by administering something to the athlete without their knowledge.

There is no good side to drugs in sport. Unfortunately, this has marred my enjoyment of most sports and I now prefer to watch the amateur events that are still relatively Performance enhancing free- It just relies on the skill of the participant.
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Old 09-14-06, 07:33 PM   #18
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It is sad that honesty has become refreshing instead of routine.

I found Andreu's admission refreshing. The 'perhaps is was my maseuse' (sp??) argument expressed by others holds no weight to me. The pro's know the rules and that they need to know about everything that may get into their bodies.

There is an interesting court case coming up in some months in Denver. 4 or 5 young riders are suing their then coach for (performance) drugging them. The coach is supposed to have said something like 'If you want to race you take this and you have to trust me'. As I recall these kids were at the high end of being teenagers.
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Old 09-15-06, 04:08 AM   #19
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For all of the above reasons, and more, what if we were to decide to boycott all observation of professional sports? Think of what might happen? Hours of TV programing would disappear. Stadiums would not be built with tax payer dollars. Entertainment dollars would shift to ______. Would the sports economy collapse?

Back in the 80s when ML Baseball went on strike, I gave up on that and most professional sports. Think about it? Millionaire athletes fighting with millionaire owners! How trivial. And now we learn that pretty much any record broken in MLB since that time was done with the aid of chemicals. Bah humbug!

Professional bicycling has careened off the same perilous cliff. They just don't know they are airborne and are about to crash into the rocks below. How disappointing!
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Old 09-15-06, 04:33 AM   #20
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There is no good side to drugs in sport. Unfortunately, this has marred my enjoyment of most sports and I now prefer to watch the amateur events that are still relatively Performance enhancing free- It just relies on the skill of the participant.
Maybe in the UK. But certainly not here in the States. Chemically enhanced athletics is found throughout the big ball sports programs right into highschool.
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Old 09-15-06, 06:19 AM   #21
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I used to be a fan of Frankie, but recently he's starting to rub me the wrong way. He appears to have given conflicting statements in recent years and the Toyota-United team found they didn't need him around either as part of their management.

Like actors, actresses and athletes whose light is waning, they seem to find ways to bring themselves back into the limelight by making revelations afte the fact and many years down the road.
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Old 09-15-06, 12:07 PM   #22
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Huh? Tyler is implicated in Op Puerto? More info please.
Here is a recent article
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Old 09-15-06, 12:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by head_wind
It is sad that honesty has become refreshing instead of routine.

I found Andreu's admission refreshing. The 'perhaps is was my maseuse' (sp??) argument expressed by others holds no weight to me. The pro's know the rules and that they need to know about everything that may get into their bodies.

There is an interesting court case coming up in some months in Denver. 4 or 5 young riders are suing their then coach for (performance) drugging them. The coach is supposed to have said something like 'If you want to race you take this and you have to trust me'. As I recall these kids were at the high end of being teenagers.
I think you may be referring to this case.
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Old 09-15-06, 12:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh
For all of the above reasons, and more, what if we were to decide to boycott all observation of professional sports? Think of what might happen? Hours of TV programing would disappear. Stadiums would not be built with tax payer dollars. Entertainment dollars would shift to ______. Would the sports economy collapse?

Back in the 80s when ML Baseball went on strike, I gave up on that and most professional sports. Think about it? Millionaire athletes fighting with millionaire owners! How trivial. And now we learn that pretty much any record broken in MLB since that time was done with the aid of chemicals. Bah humbug!

Professional bicycling has careened off the same perilous cliff. They just don't know they are airborne and are about to crash into the rocks below. How disappointing!
Well, I agree with you in spirit (). I'm really shocked that Barry Bonds hasn't been thrown out of baseball, much less indicted in a criminal court. But then "professional wrestling" seems to do pretty well...
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Old 09-15-06, 08:58 PM   #25
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It wouldn't surprise me to find out that lots of riders used EPO in those years. Banning a drug that you have no way to test for just doesn't sound that workable to me.
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