Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Fifty Plus (50+) Share the victories, challenges, successes and special concerns of bicyclists 50 and older. Especially useful for those entering or reentering bicycling.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-16-07, 08:46 AM   #1
Digital Gee
I need more cowbell.
Thread Starter
 
Digital Gee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Reno, Nevada
Bikes: 2015 Specialized Sirrus Elite, 2012 Masi Evoluzione
Posts: 8,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
OT: getting a car for 18 year old...ideas?

I know this is WAY off topic, but I figured the folks in this forum may have been there and done that, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

My daughter is 18, two months from high school graduation, and suddenly living with me (long story, isn't important for this thread). She has no job yet, her school is 20 miles away, and she is presently uninsured as well.

I am self employed, have one car (2000 Avalon) and want to help her make a successful transition from dependency to autonomy. In the meantime, I have to get her to school and back every day.

First step is to get her insured again (she had been insured on mom's policy, totalled a $3,000 used car and mom dropped her from policy). She hasn't driven in four months.

I need to get a second car so she has something to use. I haven't car-shopped for 8 years or so. Things sure have changed!

Options seem to be buying a clunker (something like a beater bike only with four wheels and an engine!), buying a pretty good used car (3-4 years old), buying a new "starter car" like the Toyota Yaris, Toyota Corolla, Honda Fit, etc. These new subcompacts are in the $15,000 ball park and come with warranties, not to mention get GREAT gas mileage.

The other option is to get myself something, and turn the Avalon over to her. Problem is, I like the Avalon and have no particular itch to get something different!

She will help pay for the car, whatever it is, once she finds a job and has an income. She's a good kid, a responsible kid, and she'll be fine but she needs my help at the moment.

So, what do you think -- beater car, used newer car, new entry-level car, or a new vehicle for Dear Old Dad? If I had to get something, I'd probably get a Prius or Element or Accord or something, maybe even a small pickup but again, I have no particular desire to change vehicles.

And getting her a new bike is not the answer, btw...

Is there a particular make or model you'd recommend or suggest strongly that I avoid?
__________________
2015 Sirrus Elite
2012 Masi Evoluzione

Proud member of the original Club Tombay
Digital Gee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 08:55 AM   #2
maddmaxx 
Small Member
 
maddmaxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes: Leader home built hardtail, Diamondback Response
Posts: 7,131
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
There is a school of thought that (because of statistics and the dangers facing young drivers (no matter how dependable)) that this age belongs in an older (beater) large heavy car.

1. This type of car is larger a stronger.
2. The insurance primiums will be much smaller
3. The car is less attractive and some of the problems associated with sudden new friends and driving with a crowd all over are avoided.

Someday when a little more experienced a small new car like the Yaris is fine but the ugly fact is that you have to consider the physics of a Yaris being run over by (insert your large vehicle here).

Now try to sell that story to an 18 yr old. Best of Luck.

My next bike rack is going to be a Scion XB
maddmaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 09:08 AM   #3
HopedaleHills
Streetfire
 
HopedaleHills's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Slightly Off Center
Bikes: Trek 1200c, BMC Streetfire, Gary Fisher Wahoo
Posts: 723
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Gary,

Bravo for you wanting to help get your daughter off the ground. I have two daughters and helped them when they needed it. I ended up with two exceptional young ladies.

As I see it, a good used car is the way to go. Something like a 4-5 year old Honda Accord/Toyota Camry. Not sexy but dependable and big enough to be safer than a roller skate. That approach worked for me. I was of the opinion that they should really purchase their own new car when they were able.

Or, I have a 2006 Avalon, very nice. From one Avalon owner to another, I could see you in this car.
HopedaleHills is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 09:12 AM   #4
OBXBIKR
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Bikes: 2 canondale road bikes, one modified for touring, one virgin. Co-Motion Nor'wester on order now (2/5/06)
Posts: 93
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Gee

First step is to get her insured again (she had been insured on mom's policy, totalled a $3,000 used car and mom dropped her from policy). She hasn't driven in four months.

BIG...OLD...Beater car.
OBXBIKR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 09:21 AM   #5
WalterMitty
Old Enough to Know Better
 
WalterMitty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: OK
Bikes:
Posts: 415
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
A 7-8 year old car in the $4000 - $5000 range is your best bet IMO. You'll be looking at somewhere around 100k+ miles on the clock and nothing too flashy.

Ford Escorts, Chevy Cavaliers, Dodge Neons, Geo's, et al, fall into this range. Not very sexy, but parts and service are available (some dealers are hard to find and charge an arm and a leg, some indepenent shops do better with the more common brands and types) and the wrecking yards are full of them if you need a replacement door or hood or whatever.

You won't care much if the doors get keyed or a soda gets poured onto the seats. Insurance should be tolerable (with a big enough deductable). Wear items (tires, brakes, etc) don't cost a whole lot.

I would never give a new car to a teenager to get back and forth to high school. The car probably won't last long enough to justify the depreciation you'll have to eat the day you roll it off the lot. If she finishes High School, gets through college with a degree, and the old beater has been well cared for and is still running (she really shouldn't be racking up more than 10k miles a year anyway) then you can revisit the subject of a new car.

If she turns up her nose at a 1999 Escort 4 door that's in decent shape, make sure she gets a copy of the bus schedule and a Timex watch.
WalterMitty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 09:22 AM   #6
tonphil1960
Senior Member
 
tonphil1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: NJ
Bikes: Trek 7100, Fuji Newest 2.0
Posts: 96
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey I dd the same with 2 daughters and have one to go still. I think it her driving is up to snuff anfd you are willing to spend the $$ go New or used off lease. The gas prices today will kill a teen. The old beater is fine but the $ spent on gas could go for a car payment. I have driven large Suv's and Pickups for years I got a Hyundia Sonata now. Beautiful car, 28 to 30 mpg on highway. Keep those gas prices in mind. In my opinion the only way to go is Hyundai, 100,000 warranty, you get that nowhere else. Have a look at the Elantra or Accent. You won't be sorry. JMO

TP
tonphil1960 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 09:23 AM   #7
Terrierman
Senior Member
 
Terrierman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: SWMO
Bikes:
Posts: 3,177
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Buy her a used full sized Mercury, a brown one that her friends will all not envy and that will have significant mass to provide her a reasonable degree of protection in case the bad happens. A big Buick would be the functional equivalent. Don't listen to her "But Dad, it gets bad mileage" argument. After all is said and done, Father Knows Best.
__________________
It's all downhill from here. Except the parts that are uphill.
Terrierman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 10:26 AM   #8
Artkansas 
Pedaled too far.
 
Artkansas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: La Petite Roche
Bikes:
Posts: 12,859
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This is a bicycle forum. She is young.

Get her one of these.... an AeroRider

Artkansas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 11:46 AM   #9
buelito
train safe
 
buelito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 801
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
give her your car (or sell it to her) and get yourself a 'beater'...

train safe-
buelito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 11:54 AM   #10
Thrifty1
Senior Member
 
Thrifty1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: OK
Bikes:
Posts: 780
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Try to find cost per mile stats for a brand/model you are interested in. Cost of License/tax, insurance, and, reliability/maintenance for normal wear and tear (brakes, engine tune ups, alighnments, cooling systems, tires, etc) are variable.........some cars just require more scheduled/unscheduled maintenance.
Just a thought.......
Thrifty1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 12:13 PM   #11
dbg 
Si Senior
 
dbg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Naperville, Illinois
Bikes: Too Numerous (not)
Posts: 2,595
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Strangely similar... I love my '99 Avalon and don't want to give it to my 18 yr old, but that is a strong contending outcome. Right now I'm looking for similar age Camry for $4K. The wife points out that if I spend $8K on a car so my two driving sons can work out transportation to their (yet unacquired) summer jobs, ..that they'll probably make less than that for the whole summer (suggesting it is cheaper to let them sloth and sponge the summer away). Aarrgghhhh!
__________________
David Green, Naperville, IL USA "The older I get, the better I used to be" --Lee Trevino
dbg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 12:33 PM   #12
Digital Gee
I need more cowbell.
Thread Starter
 
Digital Gee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Reno, Nevada
Bikes: 2015 Specialized Sirrus Elite, 2012 Masi Evoluzione
Posts: 8,111
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbg
Strangely similar... I love my '99 Avalon and don't want to give it to my 18 yr old, but that is a strong contending outcome. Right now I'm looking for similar age Camry for $4K. The wife points out that if I spend $8K on a car so my two driving sons can work out transportation to their (yet unacquired) summer jobs, ..that they'll probably make less than that for the whole summer (suggesting it is cheaper to let them sloth and sponge the summer away). Aarrgghhhh!
As I'm thinking about the options and the responses so far, I have to admit giving (selling) her the Avalon is probably the best bet -- it's the only used car I'll know exactly how it's been handled and is running. I have just over 80,000 miles on it. It's big, it's reliable, it runs just fine. She even likes driving it.

That leaves me to find a reliable beater for me. Where I live, I could probably find a Camry or even a Corolla for under $6 or $7k without too much problem. Or a Civic or Accord.

God I hate this process!
__________________
2015 Sirrus Elite
2012 Masi Evoluzione

Proud member of the original Club Tombay
Digital Gee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 02:00 PM   #13
stapfam
Time for a change.
 
stapfam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Posts: 19,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I have two daughters and I would not let them have a car till they had enough money in the bank to pay the insurance and maintain it for a year. About $1500. That made them realise that is was going to cost them to have a car. I then contacted a friend who is in the Motor trade and he found me a car for them. Safe reliable and cheap to insure for around $500. I bought them the car and that was it. They did get annoyed that when they Wanted a better car- Dad would not buy it but that was the reason for them paying the running expenses. One had saved and got a better car a year later- the other had to make do with my heap of junk for 3 years till she learnt to save.
__________________
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


Spike Milligan
stapfam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 02:28 PM   #14
Baftap
Riding my bike
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Bi-Coastal Bays (Boston & SF)
Bikes: Giant TCR C2 / Bianchi "beater"
Posts: 167
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
<As I'm thinking about the options and the responses so far, I have to admit giving (selling) her the Avalon is probably the best bet -- it's the only used car I'll know exactly how it's been handled and is running. I have just over 80,000 miles on it. It's big, it's reliable, it runs just fine. She even likes driving it. >

+1

I've been in the situation with a son and a daughter (now 24 & 22 respectively). Apart from the parenting strategies that I'll leave to others (do they pay for insurance, for gas, for repairs, for the car itself ... ???) the fact is that in some areas, and Southern California is one of them as far as I can tell, they actually do need a car to one degree or another for transportation - unless of course you can be available to drive them everywhere, and that can lead to all sorts of negative social implications that most parents don't want to deal with.

Anyway, when we had the same decision to make, we felt that we wanted to see them in late model used cars that had relatively modern (and working!) saftey features like ABS brakes, airbags, etc. Your Avalon would certainly fit the bill and give you a good feeling because you know its maintence history. I don't think I'd replace it with a beater for myself though. If you're not ready to update your own wheels, why not consider a good used Camry or Accord or similar?

Reputable used car salesmen are to find, but they do exist. Word of mouth is usually best - I'd check with neighbors or my regular mechanic.

Good luck.
Baftap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 03:07 PM   #15
cyclezen
OM boy
 
cyclezen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Bikes: a bunch
Posts: 3,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by stapfam
I have two daughters and I would not let them have a car till they had enough money in the bank to pay the insurance and maintain it for a year. About $1500. That made them realise that is was going to cost them to have a car....
... the other had to make do with my heap of junk for 3 years till she learnt to save.
how silly! here in the good ole US of A it goes "...About $1500. That made YOU realize that it was going to cost YOU to have a car for THEM"...

that said, Dig, Mazda 626, looks lightweight, but I can vouch for its unbelieveable toughness. My daughter showed it no mercy for 5 years, punished worse than Hoffman in 'Papillon' or Guiness in "River Kwai" and trooped on til this last spring... eventually, inevitably unrecognizable as a vehicle, it persisted in starting every time... It served up many a lesson. Occassionally she would whine "school is so hard, I work way too hard". I'd tell her to step outside and take a look at her car, then tell me again what 'tough' is.
I stand and salute whenever I see one roll by.
cyclezen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 03:42 PM   #16
Hask12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Honda Civic, new or used. Stylish, and incredibly reliable, and insurance should be resonable, although she is only 18, your daughter that is.
Hask12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 03:57 PM   #17
card
Happy Rider
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas
Bikes: Gold Rush, Moots compact, Bike Friday Pocket Crusoe
Posts: 749
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
DON'T DO IT
card is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 04:10 PM   #18
RockyMtnMerlin
Senior Member
 
RockyMtnMerlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Laramie Wyoming
Bikes: Merlin Extralight Topolino Wheels Campy Record
Posts: 2,970
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
This coming from one of the world's worst teenage drivers (me in the 70's): One with airbags. Lots of airbags. And hope that she never needs them. I wish I would have had them.
RockyMtnMerlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 04:14 PM   #19
PaulH
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Washington, DC
Bikes:
Posts: 3,305
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I agree, don't do it. For an 18 year old, a car is simply a vortex that absorbs time and energy that should be directed toward what matters most -- schoolwork. Especially seniors -- there is a real tendancy to slump during those last few months before graduation.

I'm speaking as a former 19 year old car owner.

Paul
PaulH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 04:15 PM   #20
jppe
Let's do a Century
 
jppe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: North Carolina
Bikes: Pinarello Prince/Campy SR; Cervelo R3/Sram Red; Trek 5900/Duraace, Cervelo P2C/Duraace
Posts: 6,488
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
I'm going through the same process for the 4th time. I look for a good reliable car that has around 100,000 miles on it for around $5k. I have 400k+ on one of my Toyotas and 200k+ on another Toyota so I'm not afraid of high mileage vehicles. In fact 120k is the least we have on four vehicles.

We've bought two Jeep Cherokee's (2wd) and am now looking for a Toyota Rav4. A Honda CRV and Subaru Forestor are also good options to look at......I've had such good luck with Toyotas it is hard for me to look at other makes.

Regardless-get driver and passenger side air bags. Saved my daughter and her friend's life in a very violent collision that my daughter could not have avoided.

If you can wind up with less than $1000 on the purchase price of the vehicle for every year you own the vehicle you've done good. So, If I get a car for $5000 I'm looking to get more than 5 years out of it......On my 400k vehicle I just need 1 more year!!!!
jppe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 04:32 PM   #21
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 24,586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by maddmaxx
There is a school of thought that (because of statistics and the dangers facing young drivers (no matter how dependable)) that this age belongs in an older (beater) large heavy car.

1. This type of car is larger a stronger.
2. The insurance primiums will be much smaller
3. The car is less attractive and some of the problems associated with sudden new friends and driving with a crowd all over are avoided.
Big old, underpowered, beater car, with an airbag. That would be my choice. I think that limits you to something no older than the mid '90s.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 06:19 PM   #22
tom cotter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cherry Hill,NJ
Bikes:
Posts: 1,172
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Lease her one of the starter cars you mentioned. Reason: Total out of pocket cost.

For less than $200 a month you've covered all your daughter's car cost with exception of routine maint. and gas. The car is new, has all the newest safety equipment, and is under warranty. I know it might sound insane to lease a kid a new car buttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt, from experience I'm telling you it's the cheapest way to go.

All used cars, even well maintainted ones like your Avalon, need increasingly expensive service as they age. All of the beater Hondas and Toyotas on your list will need timing belts or chains, new front end suspension parts, along with a host of other new parts just to keep the car reliable. I recently faced this with a well maintained 2003 Accord. The car had 100,000 miles on the clock. At this mileage to turn the car over to my son the car needed the 105,000 mile service. That's a new timing belt, water pump, all new belts and hoses. Additionally it needed the original tires replaced, as well as new shocks. All up we were talking $2700. After spending that money it would be a crap shoot on how much additional dough would have been needed to keep the car going. We lost a similar bet on a 5 year old Pontiac GP a few years earlier. We bought my older son this low milieage used car from a new car dealer for $8,000. Two years in we'd spent another $4k just to keep it running. With the electronics of todays cars, when something goes wrong, it gets expensive in a hurry. Which why we decided against passing on the Accord. Maybe it goes another 100k or maybe it goes 5k before a $1000 dollar part gives it up. For kid number two we leased a new Civic for $188 month/zero out of pocket. You may think that $9k(over four years) is too much to spend. Yet, it beats $12k every day of the week. And not getting that "Dad, I'm at school and the car won't start" phone call is worth every dime.
tom cotter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 06:19 PM   #23
CrossChain
Senior Member
 
CrossChain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 2,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
No recommendations, but my experiences. My reliable then 17 y.o.daughter and I found a lovely old pint sized Acura that ran like a top--and cheap. Much fun until it was stolen and wrecked. She replaced that with an $7K 99VW....a constantly breaking down piece of crop. My son worked hard and mostly paid for a $4K 91 Volvo. Great to drive and, as advertized, a frickin' halftrack of durability. (Rear ended and knocked off the road by a 45mph Neon: Neon was totaled, Volvo was fine with no damage. He parlayed the drunken teen girl's father's guilty I'll-buy-the-Volvo-from-you-for-more-than-it's-worth money into a used but well maintained 93 Nissan Z which he loved but which was stolen and wrecked. With insurance money, he bought a 94 CAmaro SS muscle machine which flew like an F18 (on the quarter mile track) with about the same mileage. He sold that and now drives a Dodge SRT-4 still on warranty.

My moral: Beaters are fine until they beat up the kid's, and ultimately, your checkbook and then have even less resale. I have no worries about my college-age kids being responsible; I don't want either of them marooned in S.F.'s Tenderloin at 11:00 PM (happened to my daughter) because of a crapped out car, nor do I want them driving a safety vulnerable modern equivalent of a Yugo. Dealing with various cars, we've learned value and outcomes of poor choices.

And don't buy older Beetles! Even if they have a cutesy poo flower vase.

Last edited by CrossChain; 04-16-07 at 06:28 PM.
CrossChain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 06:49 PM   #24
scottogo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Bikes: Electra Townie 7D
Posts: 3,398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Craig's List San Diego
99 Toyota Camry - $5500
scottogo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-07, 07:57 PM   #25
Yen
Surly Girly
 
Yen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SoCal
Bikes:
Posts: 4,113
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Gee
As I'm thinking about the options and the responses so far, I have to admit giving (selling) her the Avalon is probably the best bet -- it's the only used car I'll know exactly how it's been handled and is running. I have just over 80,000 miles on it. It's big, it's reliable, it runs just fine. She even likes driving it.

That leaves me to find a reliable beater for me. Where I live, I could probably find a Camry or even a Corolla for under $6 or $7k without too much problem. Or a Civic or Accord.

God I hate this process!
I think you've hit on a great idea. We just sold a great-running, very reliable Civic for $2000.00. She would love it!
__________________
Specialized Roubaix Expert
Surly Long Haul Trucker
Yen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:33 PM.