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Old 07-30-07, 01:18 PM   #1
jim p
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Precieved exertion and heart rate

Last week my heart rate would hardly get over 130 no matter how hard I was riding. Previously my max heart rate was 155. I thought that maybe my monitor was going bad so I got my wife to wear it to the gym and compare it to the reading on the eliptical machine. She came back and said that it was within 1 beat per minute. I had been riding 20 miles a day for about 5 days so I decide to take a 35 mile ride. I just let my heart rate hang around 120 and at the end of the ride I feel good and almost tried for another 20 miles but decided why ruin a good thing. The next day my nephew calls and wants to go fishing so I decide to skip my ride and we go fishing. I play in the creek and swim while he fishes. So all this leads up to today. I head out on my ride and see that my heart rate is high even while I am taking it easy. I am at a rate of 120 with almost no effort and 12 mph. I start up a hill and get a little winded I take a look and I am at 140 but my legs are not tired. There is a pretty long hill on my route at about my 15 mile mark and I use it to try and see what my maximum heart rate is. So I start up the hill at 14 mph and the heart rate is 145 in about 2 minutes it is at 150. Another minute and it is 155. I try to see if I can get it higher and I start heaving in about 20 seconds and the rate did not go over 155.

So after saying all this all I can conclude is that some days my precieved exertion is that I have had it at a heart rate of 120 and another day I can hit a rate of 145 and not feel all that bad.

Do you find this to be true for yourself?
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Old 07-30-07, 01:35 PM   #2
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So after saying all this all I can conclude is that some days my precieved exertion is that I have had it at a heart rate of 120 and another day I can hit a rate of 145 and not feel all that bad.

Do you find this to be true for yourself?
Many things affect heart rate And I find that if I go out and push right from the start of a ride- I have difficulty in getting it above 135.

What I do is get the HR to 120 and rest till I feel OK. Then push to 130 And rest again. Then up to 140 and total rest. Then push to 150 and I am breathing hard- legs are leaden and it will take a longer time to recover. Once I have got to 150 though- I can ride all day at 140 to 145. Push to 150 on the hills but let it rise to 155 and will see my max of 165 on the steep parts or the end of a hill. In other words- I do a warm up at the start of rides.

Then I did a long ride a few years ago and kept the HR at 140 as the norm- but I got very close to bonking. Took it steady for 10 miles and recovered But then took in a severe hill. I could not get the HR above 130 and that was pushing hard. Still made the hill but very slowly.

Besides personal fitness and effort put in- One thing to think about is your Own energy Levels. If you are feeling tired- then you will not get the HR up as high as when you are in "Good" condition.
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Old 07-30-07, 01:48 PM   #3
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Interesting. I was riding a friend yesterday and his BPM were much lower than normal. He couldn't figure out why either. One of the things I've sometimes noticed is that BPM can go down on big climbs, even though I feel like my head is about to explode.
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Old 07-30-07, 02:06 PM   #4
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You know, all this seems so complicated. I know when I'm pushing too hard, and I know when I'm not pushing hard enough. My resting heart rate is slow even when I was out of shape and sedentary. I think that explains why it takes longer to get it into the target zones found in the tables and charts. Years ago when I rode a stationery bike, I found that by switching to perceived exertion measured by deep breaking and ability to speak, my fitness level increased by leaps and bounds. If I pushed harder to get it into the range for my age, I felt more fatigued and too tired the next day. That was when I was 30 and I'm 50+ now, but I still find that if my breathing is deep and my legs are pushing but not burning and my head is not pounding, and if I am challenging myself but not overdoing it, then I am in a good zone and my heart rate recovers quickly and I notice improvement.

I'm not putting down the HRM, in fact I will still use mine, but I don't know how heavily I will rely on it given my experience using perceived exertion and the good results that followed.
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Old 07-30-07, 03:39 PM   #5
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Actually, this has not been my experience. When my perceived exertion is high (i.e., legs of lead, chest pounding, and lungs heaving...), my HRM confirms it with a near-max heart rate reading.
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Old 07-30-07, 03:53 PM   #6
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Difficulty in raising heart rate is one of the traditional signs of overtraining

Are you allowing yourself enough recovery time? It is as important as the training.


http://www.heartmonitors.com/exercis...ertraining.htm

Quote:
Examples of physiological overtraining signs and symptoms:

increased resting and submaximal heart rate (resting heart rate can also be decreased in overtraining state)
muscle soreness
decreased maximal heart rate
menstrual irregularities
decreased performance
loss of strength
increased illness and injury frequency
loss of co-ordination

Last edited by DnvrFox; 07-30-07 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 07-30-07, 04:15 PM   #7
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Actually, this has not been my experience. When my perceived exertion is high (i.e., legs of lead, chest pounding, and lungs heaving...), my HRM confirms it with a near-max heart rate reading.
I share the same experience. I can about guess my heart rate without looking at the readout.
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Old 07-30-07, 04:22 PM   #8
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I think that explains why it takes longer to get it into the target zones found in the tables and charts.
The tables & charts are less accurate than perceived exertion because they are based on averages. They have no validity for any particular individual. It may be true the the average MHR = 220-age (which is the formula most tables & charts {or some varient of it** are based on). It may also be true that the average American male is 38, 5'10' and weighs 175 lbs ( I just made those numbers up). But that tells you no more about yourself than the 220-age formula.

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Old 07-30-07, 04:30 PM   #9
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The tables & charts are less accurate than perceived exertion because they are based on averages. They have no validity for any particular individual. It may be true the the average MHR = 220-age (which is the formula most tables & charts {or some varient of it** are based on). It may also be true that the average American male is 38, 5'10' and weighs 175 lbs ( I just made those numbers up). But that tells you no more about yourself than the 220-age formula.

Dan
Have to agree w/you on the 220 less age. My Dr. even uses that formula; however, my max. HR is greater than the formula. Sally Edwards wrote, in my opinion, an excellent book entitled Heart Zone Training. She discusses methods to measure what your max heart rate really is, and covers the basics of using a HRM to help maximize one's training goals.
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Old 07-30-07, 05:08 PM   #10
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I just got a HRM, but I read somewhere else, to go hard until your tongue hits your knees. Do that 3 times to get your average and then subtract 20%. I haven't had mine that long to do that, but I'm going to give it a try.
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Old 07-30-07, 05:11 PM   #11
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I just got a HRM, but I read somewhere else, to go hard until your tongue hits your knees. Do that 3 times to get your average and then subtract 20%. I haven't had mine that long to do that, but I'm going to give it a try.
When you get your average and subtract 20%, what does it mean?
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Old 07-30-07, 05:21 PM   #12
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I was sort of thinking that maybe I had not been getting enough rest and the day off put things back on track. My physical conditions keep me from going out and riding hard at the beginning of a ride. If I try to push at the beginning I will start having mild chest pain like indigestion so I slow down burp a lot and ride easy for about 5 miles with a heart rate no higher than about 115 bpm. If I just ride with a HR of about 110 for the first 5 miles I don't have any or very little discomfort and after this warm up I can then ride hard.

I agree that the 220 less age does not work for me. my max is 11 bpm less that the formula specifies. I am trying to use a HRM to help me maintain a HR that will not be too high and cause problems. For instance if I am climbing a hill and I see a HR of 140 I will usually back off on the effort until it drops down to 130. IF I am out riding at a HR of 130 and have a heart attack and die well I can die with that but if I am out riding for an hour at a HR rate of 155 and have a heart attack and die not only will I be dead but I will have gone out with the thought of how stupid could I be.

Since I ride for exercise and fun maybe I can ride at about 70% max HR most of the time and just to see if I am rested enough I can hit it hard for a minute to see it the HR responds correctly and use this as a guage.

Thanks for your comments.
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Old 07-30-07, 05:34 PM   #13
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When you get your average and subtract 20%, what does it mean?
If you went as hard as you could, 3 times and took the average of the 3, then subtract 20% of the average. what ever you come up with, would be the max heart you would want to go. I would still use the low that comes with the booklet, which is 96. Just cruising around this morning, pretty much taking it easy 13 to 15 mph, after 45 minutes, mine was up to 135. I really don't think everybody can go by there scale. It says I should be doing 144 max, I don't think that would be to hard. I don't know for sure, I have to go 20 miles or more and then see where I'm at.
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Old 07-30-07, 06:09 PM   #14
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Have to agree w/you on the 220 less age. My Dr. even uses that formula; however, my max. HR is greater than the formula. Sally Edwards wrote, in my opinion, an excellent book entitled Heart Zone Training. She discusses methods to measure what your max heart rate really is, and covers the basics of using a HRM to help maximize one's training goals.

For more on the genesis (and inaccuracy) of the 220-age formula see: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/24/he...716ecf&ei=5070. Its the NY Times site. You'll have to open an account, but its free & worth having in any event.

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Old 07-30-07, 06:56 PM   #15
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Difficulty in raising heart rate is one of the traditional signs of overtraining
Are you allowing yourself enough recovery time? It is as important as the training.
That's sort of what I thought - not necessarily over-training, but that a rest day is needed.

What's this 20%, guys? How to stay in the wimp zone? When your tongue hits your knees, you're almost there - wait for your vision to start graying around the periphery. Then you've found your max HR. Isn't 80% of max considered the 'dead zone?' where it doesn't let you gain strength, recover, or condition your cardio system?
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Old 07-30-07, 07:04 PM   #16
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http://faculty.css.edu/tboone2/asep/Robergs.doc

You might do a search - MHR has been discussed quite comprehensively several times this past year - I mean REALLY comprehensively.
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Old 07-30-07, 07:19 PM   #17
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I thought that to get your max heart rate, you went like blazes until you dropped dead and then subtracted 1 bpm

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Old 07-30-07, 08:27 PM   #18
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I'm 52 and during my normal Sunday group ride my HR runs between 135 and 155 with 190's seen during sprints or on a hard run over one of our high arch bridges. Never seem to have a problem maintaining a run near 150BPM.
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Old 07-31-07, 05:34 AM   #19
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Most training methods rely on either Lactate Threshold heart rate or using working heart rate which is your maximum minus your resting HR. Based on those you create your training zones. So using working HR 50% = WHR*.5+resting HR. 50%-70% is Aerobic, 80%-90% is Anaerobic and >90% is red line. Lactate threshold is probably a better way to train but requires more effort to determine your LT. Friel has a whole section on this. In almost all training you should be riding some % of your time intensely which is greater than 100% of your LT or 90% of your WHR. This type of effort is what moves up your LT allows you to work at higher intensity longer.

Many factors effect HR on any given day so you really need to look at longer trends than just a single day.
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Old 07-31-07, 06:16 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by chinarider View Post
It may be true the the average MHR = 220-age (which is the formula most tables & charts {or some varient of it** are based on).
I've also heard that for fit people over 40 or so, a more accurate formula is 205 minus half your age. At age 60, the (220 - age) formula would put me at a max of 160, but I can easily exceed that when running hard. The newer formula would estimate my MHR as 175, which seems closer to my experience.
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Old 07-31-07, 06:45 AM   #21
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I agree with Dnvr's assessment on your body "being tired" and not realizing it.

I've experienced what you saw about not being able to elevate your HR many times. The times when I can "blow up my heart rate" is when I'm really fresh from not riding in a while and my legs are very strong. The times when I can't even reach 70% of my max I'm just tired-sometimes I don't even realize it.

Another thing I've experienced is my HR will not go up as high the fitter I get. So there is a balance in there somewhere.

Just take a little R&R time (like you did) and you'll be back to normal. I took about 6 weeks off of hard riding and it's made a world of difference in how I feel-both physically and mentally.
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