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Old 08-08-07, 01:13 PM   #1
Tom Bombadil
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Contador not welcome in Germany

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200....ap/index.html
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Old 08-08-07, 01:18 PM   #2
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Here's the skinny on Contador. He has RLS and has been taking EPO for it. He thought EPO was OK as long as you had a good reason to take it (that's what Lance told him, at least) and so that's why it turned up on his A sample.

You heard it here first.
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Old 08-08-07, 01:21 PM   #3
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/othe...ng/6937634.stm
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Old 08-08-07, 01:56 PM   #4
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I guess in cycling, at least in Germany, you are presumed guilty until you can prove you are innocent. That kind of stinks IMHO
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Old 08-08-07, 02:09 PM   #5
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Contador's making "an announcement" tomorrow but not taking questions:

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13062.0.html
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Old 08-08-07, 03:08 PM   #6
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I hate to say it but Drug taking and Performance enhancing additives seem to have been the norm for a great number of athletes covering just about every sport. What gets me at present though- Is that if you are successfull- you must be on something and the drug testing facilities will keep testing till they find an abnormality- somewhere. That is if you are in a sport that takes drug testing to the extreme that cycling currently does.

So don't take that aspirin tomorrow- because when it mixes with the Eccles cake you have for mid morning break- You have no idea what effect it will have on your work performance.
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Old 08-08-07, 03:21 PM   #7
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Stapfam, do cricket players ever take steroids and such? I've never seen a beafy cricket player.

I've only seen a few cricket players in my life, Pakistani students when I was in school. It looked like fun, to be honest. And they were all skinny. But they were just amateurs I would assume.
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Old 08-08-07, 07:30 PM   #8
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Making an anouncement and not taking questions is a bad sign. Anouncing that you are going to be making an anouncement without taking questions sounds really bad to me.
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Old 08-08-07, 09:24 PM   #9
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I guess in cycling, at least in Germany, you are presumed guilty until you can prove you are innocent. That kind of stinks IMHO
And in France!
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Old 08-08-07, 10:54 PM   #10
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Never underestimate the preening self-righteousness of the progressive mind-set that strives for ever-higher-holiness. How dare they be questioned!

Too bad Contador is merely Spanish...so much better to nail an American.
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Old 08-08-07, 11:36 PM   #11
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I guess in cycling, at least in Germany, you are presumed guilty until you can prove you are innocent. That kind of stinks IMHO
This is slightly off topic, but many countries in the world use a legal system where you are presumed guilty and have to prove your innocence. It's not as bad as it sounds to those of us used the the British system where the reverse applies. For instance, the judge's job is to search out the truth and to aid the defendant in proving his innocence. Many argue that it's a better system than the British system. I don't think it matters as long as the right person winds up in jail.

With Contador though, I think it's more a case of 'everytime we've seen an extreme performance, the bloke's been proven to be on drugs', and Contador's performance has certainly been extreme. It's also interesting to listen to other riders duck and weave around questions about him, so the peleton seems to have it's own ideas too.

Personally though, he's clean until he's caught or confesses ... at which point he becomes a cheat and his only way of rehabilitating his reputation with me is to confess and then become a clean rider. It's an attitude that's a bit black and white but that's a defense mechanism because we outside the peleton don't really know what's going on inside it ... and I loathe cheats.

Richard
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Old 08-09-07, 04:22 AM   #12
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Making an anouncement and not taking questions is a bad sign. Anouncing that you are going to be making an anouncement without taking questions sounds really bad to me.
My thoughts exactly. My guess is that is has something to do with the Franke documents.The taking no questions probably was a lesson learned from the Floyd Landis circus.

The one thing different here. It there has been a positive test, it has not been "leaked" by the lab to L'Equipe. At least up to this point.
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Old 08-09-07, 05:33 AM   #13
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I guess in cycling, at least in Germany, you are presumed guilty until you can prove you are innocent. That kind of stinks IMHO
It does stink, but bear in mind there is a serious epidemic of drug use in cycling that taints all aspects of the sport, it seems. Some riders will tell you that there's no way to effectively compete unless you take performance-enhancing drugs. Certainly many of my favorites have eventually tested positive including TDF winners Jan Ulrich and Marco Pantani. The Landis case continues to play out, but if he's guilty, it would mean that three of the past four TDF winners--at some point--tested positive for drugs.

I was a great fan of Tyler Hamilton, until he tested postive (and was later caught up in operation Puerto). I was a great fan of Robert Millar until he tested positve. I was a great fan of Alexandre Vinokurov until he tested positive. I was a great fan of Iban Mayo until he tested positive. I was a great fan of Ivan Basso, until he was nailed in operation Puerto. There are many others.

Does this mean Contador is guilty? No. However, the sport we love is rife with a seemingly incurable drug problem, which has been going on for a long, long time, and Contador was most definitely a target in Operation Puerto. Some say he skated because the investigation was conducted by Spanish authorities--and that he's Spanish.

Maybe I'm just too cynical. I certainly didn't start out that way.
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Old 08-09-07, 06:30 AM   #14
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In case you hadn't noticed, most cases worthy of press coverage, the trial is over in the publics mind (pro or con) before the evidence is even heard by the jury. Trial by press release is the modern way. It appears that this is good for the press and good for the laywers. Probably its good for the politicians.

The question that really needs to be answered is "what is guilty". If a rider passes all drug tests can he be guilty? Doping today appears to involve the science of knowing how much to take to do some "good" without crossing over the threashold of failing a test. Is a rider who dopes just enough to pass all tests guilty of violating the doping laws. As a comparison, look at the blood alcohol rules for driving. A driver who has a blood alcohol level below .8 is not considered to have broken the law. Above .8 guilty. Is cycling and doping the same?
How about riders who take something for which there is not law or rule. Is a rider "guilty" of taking EPO years ago before a rule existed covering EPO?



The subject is certainly a dificult one.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:51 AM   #15
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I don't think it is a question of guilt or innocence in this case. The sport is trying to take a stand against doping and to avoid all the hair splitting and emotion involved in establishing guilt. So races are making policies that if you are involved in an investigation about doping, you can't be in their race. If you get certain readings from a doping control test, you are disqualified. If you don't comply with the rules about out of race testing and reporting, you are disqualified. It is not about guilt or innocence. It is about being qualified or not.

It is a hard line stance and no doubt it will result in some people getting punished for accusations that they are eventually cleared or, but I have gradually come to agree that it is the only way to deal with the problem. They can't allow lawyers to call the shots.
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Old 08-09-07, 07:59 AM   #16
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If everyone who's name got mentioned with the drug incidents and investigations is excluded they might as well kiss the sport goodby.
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Old 08-09-07, 08:38 AM   #17
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If everyone who's name got mentioned with the drug incidents and investigations is excluded they might as well kiss the sport goodby.
A number of corporations are re-evaluating their support for professional cycling. Kissing the sport goodbye isn't likely. Seeing a large chunk of sponsorship money drying up is far from out of the question. This has nothing do do with allegations, but with actual positive tests.
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Old 08-09-07, 08:58 AM   #18
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I don't think it is a question of guilt or innocence in this case. The sport is trying to take a stand against doping and to avoid all the hair splitting and emotion involved in establishing guilt. So races are making policies that if you are involved in an investigation about doping, you can't be in their race. If you get certain readings from a doping control test, you are disqualified. If you don't comply with the rules about out of race testing and reporting, you are disqualified. It is not about guilt or innocence. It is about being qualified or not.

It is a hard line stance and no doubt it will result in some people getting punished for accusations that they are eventually cleared or, but I have gradually come to agree that it is the only way to deal with the problem. They can't allow lawyers to call the shots.
When messing around with peoples jobs and incomes Laywers become necessary quickly. If you were not allowed to go to work (and get paid) because your name was on a list found somewhere in Spain would you be happy about it? Remember that some of these people on the list are possibly as truely innocent as you are.
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Old 08-09-07, 09:00 AM   #19
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I guess it's asking too much for all the cheats to just piss off and allow us 'fans' to enjoy the racing in our innocence.

Richard
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Old 08-09-07, 09:06 AM   #20
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I guess it's asking too much for all the cheats to just piss off and allow us 'fans' to enjoy the racing in our innocence.

Richard
That's the point of my question. Are you cheating if you pass the tests?
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Old 08-09-07, 10:22 AM   #21
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When messing around with peoples jobs and incomes Laywers become necessary quickly. If you were not allowed to go to work (and get paid) because your name was on a list found somewhere in Spain would you be happy about it? Remember that some of these people on the list are possibly as truely innocent as you are.
I've been called a lot of things, but never innocent!

Don't get me wrong. I'm not in favor of stomping on people's rights. There does need to be someone looking out for the riders' interests. But this is a gray area. The sponsors and promoters have to be able to get something for their investments. And all the teams and riders who are clean need the events to survive and thrive in order to make a living. Racing is in a crisis situation because of the public perception that they are all cheating. It will take firm stances to deal with the problem. That may call for stepping on some toes.
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Old 08-09-07, 11:36 AM   #22
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Stapfam, do cricket players ever take steroids and such? I've never seen a beafy cricket player.

I've only seen a few cricket players in my life, Pakistani students when I was in school. It looked like fun, to be honest. And they were all skinny. But they were just amateurs I would assume.
Haven't you heard of "Beefie" Botham? Better than the Mild Gentle humoured Australian Cricketer- "Lambie"

As to drug taking in Cricket- Don't think its a problem unless you count Burgers- Beer and recreational Drugs- And all 3 are rife.
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Old 08-09-07, 06:42 PM   #23
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Just thought everyone should know...

"Contador" is Spanish for accountant.
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