Neil_B

From an interview of Romanian chess historian Olimpiu Urcan, published at Chessville and in the magazine of the Chess Journalists of America:

"One of the leading American chess historians isn’t an American; in fact, he isn’t even in the Western hemisphere. And his own life is as interesting as those of his chess history writing. Olimpiu G. Urcan was born in Romania in 1977. As a twelve year old he witnessed the overthrow of Ceausescu; in an essay he described the immediate reaction to the capture of the dictator and overthrow of the Communist state. Looking out his window, “at first I thought there were about a thousand white pigeons but soon enough I realized that from my tenth-floor block, all the Communist propaganda books, brochures, magazines, and journals were being thrown up in the sky…” Freedom was literally in the air....

Q. What prompts you to choose Americans and American subjects?

A. As for what drew me to Americans, I believe it has always happened. The United States possesses an immense and incredibly diversified culture, derived from some of the most significant historical experiences of the 19th and 20th century. I am mostly preoccupied on how these unsung heroes, as those I wrote about, entered in contact with this culture, at various local levels, and experienced their stories of success or failure, and not only in chess.

Neil_B

I had to stop reading Josie Dew's book Travels in a Strange State because she pushed that stereotype. I felt like I was reading Dickens' American Notes in a Eurotrash translation.

Vieja Cabra

Your points on assimilation are very well taken. The only problem....the illegal immigrants ARE NOT assimilating. Rather, we are made to feel guilty if we don't celebrate Cinco de Mayo, signs and advertisements are now in Spanish AND English, and you have to press 1 to hear instructions in what has always been our native language.

Some of my folks were Irish (came over to Boston - 1880's era) , and they assimilated because they dropped the O' from the front of their name and my great grandmother would thump their red head if they didn't learn to speak English without a brouge. And, those folks came into the country "with papers" as it were, and wanted to be part of the American dream. They didn't break the law. We're on a different program these days. Very few are trying to assimilate, but rather want to be catered to in their own language.

If you think its a passing, local problem, then you need to try and order a cheeseburger in the Rio Grande Valley. The RGV, by the way, is one of the fastest growing MSA's in the nation. Still think its a passing problem?

A common language is what binds a country together. A celebration of multi and differentiated ethnicity tears it apart. Look at Canada, which has already had one election to separate. Consider the problems in Ireland, former Yugoslavia, breakup of the USSR, etc.

I'm telling you, this isn't a passing problem.

dbg

I have no problem adding another language. And I believe amnesty will help the assimilation issue. It's not a majority up here, but I interact with spanish speaking hispanics every day and they are mostly wonderful. It's the people that look like me who mostly act like jerks, taking responsibility for nothing and looking for every opportunity to grab everything.

I'll duck back under now.

ad6mj

Try going to an emergency room in this part of the country. It is full of illegal aliens seeking medical attention. Most are there for minor ailments, some serious and of course no medical insurance. Hospitals pass along some of this expense to those that are able to pay and that they are able to collect from. Still many hospitals are faced with closing emergency rooms or bankruptcy because they are unable to collect for services. I can't see how illegals are on the positive side of taxes when most don't pay income tax or property tax. Illegal aliens who take low-paying jobs don't pay enough in taxes, if they pay at all, to reimburse taxpayers the $5,000-plus annually it takes to educate each of their children. It is estimated that 11% of the state inmates are illegal aliens. We spend about $43,000 per inmate per year to house them. Car insurance rates are higher because of the impact of uninsured illegal aliens. Most of the people who come here illegally are good decent folks that want to earn a living. They do break our laws though when they come here illegally. That's not a good way to start a relationship. Employers benefit by having cheap labor and not having to pay taxes and benefits for those workers. The true cost of that cheap labor is paid by the taxpayers. And that cost is mostly paid by the taxpayers in a few states, with California leading the pack.

Neil_B

You had to study to become an American. Most of us didn't. :-)

Jet Travis

[QUOTE=Jet Travis;5772525]

Tom Bombadil

A few more statistics:

30 million people in the USA can speak Spanish. This makes the USA the 5th largest Spanish-speaking nation in the world This could be as high as 40 million when one includes all illegal aliens.

Roughly only 50% of all 2nd-generation Hispanic Americans can speak Spanish.

6 other languages are spoken by over 1 million US citizens, with Chinese at 2M being the highest. Another 8 languages are spoken by between 500,000 to 1M people.

English is the primary language of 82% of US citizens, this drops a bit, to around 78% when illegal aliens are included.

Approximately 20 million people in the USA cannot speak English fluently.

All of the non-English numbers are growing and are likely to continue to grow.

The California Department of Motor Vehicles publishes documents in 47 languages.

The legally recognized languages of the state of Louisiana are English and French.

Tom Bombadil

Actually, all of these costs are taken into account in the national studies.

One of the ironies in the health care costs is that it is because we deem them illegals that they cannot get jobs that provide health insurance. Therefore we force them into the emergency rooms without insurance as a matter of policy. It is either that or their sick and injured children would go untreated.

The counter to the health care costs is that many US businesses are saving money on health insurance because of hiring illegals and these profits are also passed into the economy, just like the heath care costs are.

A lot of large-scale economic models are in play here ... involving multiple countries.

What I find amazing is how much money some of these illegal aliens are able to save, given their low wages. They are much more disciplined in their spending and savings habits than most Americans.

oilman_15106

You should duck. In Mexico several weeks ago and not much has changed since we were there in 1976. the poor are many, rich are few and a $1.98 tube of Neosporin costs $25! Military road blocks to search for drugs a thousand miles from the US border but drugs flow like water to the US. The place is a trainwreck as far as I am concerned.

RockyMtnMerlin

First - political science is an oxymoron. I don't care how many statistics and methodology classes they make you take - it mostly comes down to opinions supported by selected "facts." I learned that in methodology classes in graduate school.
Second - been in 36 countries and counting (including living in three foreign countries for two years each)
Third - almost everywhere I have ever traveled or lived the people have been friendly - especially if you are friendly to them.
Fourth - Mexico is a lovely mess - and not likely to be straightened out in the near term.
Fifth - well I guess that is enough for now.

Monoborracho

I would appreciate an opportunity to look at some of these national studies and statistics that are being bantered around here. Do you have any internet links to publications that you would care to share?

solveg

I'm not a very political person, but I spent a couple months each year in central Mexico when I was growing up, and later lived in a border town doing social work where I pretty much spoke spanish instead of english. My ex was a border patrol agent in the 80's. I guess I'm just giving you background so I don't get accused of being a Minnesotan far away from the impact of the situation:

Whenever I listen to debates about this South American/Mexican immigration issue, after a while it basically boils down to an argument that there's so MANY of them that they're going to change everything. I don't glamorize the Mexican culture, which I find way too sexist for my taste, and I don't argue that they could change our status quo via many different venues. But, (ducks) what's the big deal about that?

We are* a democracy, and majority wins. We're a capitalistic society, so if there's suddenly bad spanish soap operas and game shows on during prime time... so be it. Even if we're totally repopulated in 100 years with spanish-speaking people and we become a spanish speaking nation, so what? Nations that don't adapt don't thrive.

I think there's also the very simple instinct to keep control if you have it. It's a little scary to turn over the keys to the car. But that's why it's great to live in a democracy! Everyone gets a vote, and the power theoretically continues to redistribute with the values of the society.

Personally, I think the US is like an overbred dog breed. We need a little hybrid vigor.

The Weak Link

@Solveg -- why is it that when you are in America and someone gives you change you don't count it because you're sure they wouldn't cheat you but when you are in Mexico you always count your change because you know they're likely to?

Within the answer lies most people's resistance to illegal immigration, methinks.

BluesDawg

I count my change here (haven't been there) because I can't be sure that the person operating the cash register can do simple math well enough to make correct change.

ad6mj

According to our Constitution only citizens get to vote. We like all countries have laws regarding immigration. In the past immgration (legal) was much more open in the U.S. Back then though, immigrants or for that matter nobody had the expensive public benefits that are available today. If you didn't work, you starved, if you didn't have money for medical services, you didn't get them or you got very minimal. There were private charities that provided assistance to those that they thought were truly in need. Those folks that received that assistance ususally felt obligated to get on their own as soon as possible and often paid back what they received. Now government is the "caretaker" and tax dollars are used. Many people don't seem to mind taking money from the government for as long as possible and it's virutally unheard of for people to pay the government back when they get on their feet. Now these are considered "entitlements".

The Weak Link

Yah, I was going to insert a "you count your change here if the kid is a public school graduate" but I've folded up my asbestos undies and put them away already.

BluesDawg

It may be different where you live, but around here, our public schools produce scholars as well as illiterates - just like the segregationist academies.

BSLeVan

When I first read the title of this thread, I had hoped it would be a discussion of the different challenges one faces when going from one country to another. You know, passport issues, transportation differences, How easy or hard it is to get your bike shipped to another place. (This was something I was interested in for thinking about future travels around this magnificant planet). I didn't know it was going to be about bigotry. Oh, well live and learn. Could it be that our OP was trolling? If so, I guess I've been caught too.

Hermes

I thought this as well and that is why I posted the extensive list.

Jet Travis

Maybe you ought to put them back on. Much as I love ya, man, you're starting to sound like a flaming troll.

maddmaxx 

OK..........I've been hooked...........and I tried hard.

This nation was/is made of immigrants. In fact I'd bet that we have more immigrants than anyone else. We are proud of it. Our country is what it is today because of it! There are hundreds of locations around the country that immigration is on display. We are not an overbred dog, in fact we haven't even finished deciding what sort of dog we are.

So when does it become bigotry to point out that some are here without bothering to do it right. Whats wrong with saying....go home...do it right...and be welcome here like everyone else.

Or perhaps is big bad American bashing another more popular form of bigotry.

The Weak Link

Naah. Just a snark. My kid goes to a public school. A bilingual school at that. A ESL school even at that. And there are a bunch of foreigners in her class. They all speak English better than my daughter, even though Anya has learned how to say "Just relax!" and "Whatchadoin'" like a native. And we have no complaints about her school whatsoever. If the conservatives overrun this thread I'll start posting like a flaming lib.

Someone posted that one's opinion about illegal immigration is influenced by where they live. Here in Kentucky we note that they are incredibly hard workers. If Home Depot wants their business by having bilingual signage it's cool with me.

However, as someone who spent a blue fortune on LEGAL immigration and played by the rules, I sometimes wonder why I didn't just smuggle my daughter into Mexico and then into the States. Would have saved me a bunch of green.

Retro Grouch 

I'm thinking that the rules for immigration from Mexico are way too tight. There's obviously a huge market for Mexican workers or they wouldn't be able to find jobs and they'd stop coming. It looks similar to me to the prohibition era and nationwide 55 MPH speed limits. When the laws are too strict, government completely loses control and they can't regulate the situation.

Jet Travis

I respect you for all sorts of reasons--including adopting a child from the Ukraine. My wife is a legal immigrant, so we also went through the whole, expensive, exasperating rigamarole. So, I really do appreciate your opinion on illegal immigrants. It was that comment about counting your change that bugged me. It struck me that an entire nation was being reduced to a simplistic negative stereotype. OK, I'm done *****in'.