Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Results 1 to 16 of 16
  1. #1
    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
    My Bikes
    Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
    Posts
    19,915
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Wheels and things

    Had an afternoon of swopping bits on the two good bikes and going for a 5 mile ride to check each bit out.

    The Boreas is still the bike of choice- but tried wheels first of all. Funny how a change of wheels can transform a bike. All have the same tyres- Michelin Pro Race 2's in 23. Mavic Aksiums are the stock wheel now- Fine for the winter rides on rough roads- when I do not want to wear out the others. Weight 1800 grammes and don't have much feel coming back to me. Then the Ultegra 6600's and they are a decent set of wheels. Weight of 1650 grammes and roll well- but do transmit a bit of Road buzz back to me and bounce a bit on rough surfaces on the TCR- but stable and noisy on Boreas.

    Then the Hand built 105 hubs- 36 spokes and Mavic CXP33 rims. Lacing is crossed X2 and weigh in at 1750 grammes. No road buzz on either bike- Roll well and takes potholes pretty well. (Didn't see it and it was not that deep) Noted that the front wheel was out of true and as I was going to the LBS- got the mechanic to retrue and retension. Retrue not a problem but I would have to leave the wheels as they did not have time to sort them out today. So back home and tomorrow wouuld be a ride on Boreas with the Ultegra's. Fitted the new pedals and and got the bike ready for tomorrows ride.

    Only a couple of other things to check out but Cables were getting stiff. Release the outers and lube inside. Sprayed plenty of Muck off down inside the Brifters to clean them out and they were dirty. Spray with light oil to lubricate the internals and relink the cables back up. Now this bike has only done about 2,000 miles and I was beginning to think about new Brake blocks as They were losing a bit of efficiency. No way- Brakes are perfect- just the dirty cables and internals of the brifters.

    So there I am ready to go out tomorrow on Boreas and try a few hills. All I have to work out is where that wind is coming from as it is getting up strength again. They only reckon on 30 mph tomorrow- but the route will take into consideration the wind strenth. I do not want a Headwind of that strength after 40 miles and a few steep hills. But if from the South- I might be taking in a sheltered ride in the FLAT land to the west of where I live. That way- I should get a decent tailwind for the last 10 miiles.
    How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


    Spike Milligan

  2. #2
    Senior Member ?? Beverly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Englewood,Ohio
    My Bikes
    2007 Trek Madone 5.0 WSD - 2007 Trek 4300 WSD - 2008 Trek 520
    Posts
    5,090
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stapfam View Post
    So there I am ready to go out tomorrow on Boreas and try a few hills. All I have to work out is where that wind is coming from as it is getting up strength again. They only reckon on 30 mph tomorrow- but the route will take into consideration the wind strenth. I do not want a Headwind of that strength after 40 miles and a few steep hills. But if from the South- I might be taking in a sheltered ride in the FLAT land to the west of where I live. That way- I should get a decent tailwind for the last 10 miiles.
    We only have 14 mph winds from the south tomorrow so this shouldn't be much of a problem on our breakfast route. It's a circular ride with about 8 miles in a southerly direction. I can take the tailwinds and side-winds but hate those straight on headwinds Hope you're not expecting any of those 60 mph winds again.
    =============================================================
    My cancer updates:
    https://www.mylifeline.org/beverlyow...=myupdates.cfm

    Enjoy the little things in life, for one day you may look back and realize they were the big things.
    -- Antonio Smith

  3. #3
    rck
    rck is offline
    Senior Member rck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    monroe (sw) wi
    My Bikes
    cannondale 400st, dean el diente, specialized hybrid
    Posts
    1,150
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Have I mentioned that I HATE wind!

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    N. California
    Posts
    1,412
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by stapfam View Post
    ...So there I am ready to go out tomorrow on Boreas and try a few hills. All I have to work out is where that wind is coming from as it is getting up strength again. They only reckon on 30 mph tomorrow- but the route will take into consideration the wind strenth. I do not want a Headwind of that strength after 40 miles and a few steep hills. But if from the South- I might be taking in a sheltered ride in the FLAT land to the west of where I live. That way- I should get a decent tailwind for the last 10 miiles.
    Yes. If I have a choice I try to make it so that the wind blows me back home. Went out with the local club today...I usually bike to the start if it's less than 15 miles. Anyway, rode north into a north wind but of course there were lots of people to share point with. Then on the way home it was a tail wind all the way.
    Last edited by The Smokester; 03-01-08 at 06:05 PM.

  5. #5
    Senior Member RoMad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Citrus county Fl.
    My Bikes
    Litespeed Tuscany , Lemond Poprad, 1970's Motobecane Grand Record
    Posts
    778
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Stapfam, since you are a man of many wheels you can probably help me with this. I am thinking about putting my Mavic Cosmos on my Specialized and upgrading on my Litespeed. I have read that the wheels that have more spokes ride better because they need less tension, letting the wheel flex a little more. It makes sense to me but I have never heard anyone mention it here.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    N. California
    Posts
    1,412
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I think Stapfam may have a different opinion, but I have a set of Ultegra WH-R600 wheels and another set of high-zoot DT Swiss 3x, 32 hole, angel-hair spoked, double eyeleted, R1.1 rimmed, no-expense-spared, hand-built wheels which weigh about 300 grams less (probably even including the Ti skewers on the latter). In my experience whatever difference in performance there is between these two wheel sets is masked by whatever tires (i.e. tyres) one uses.

    Both these wheel sets, of course, are pretty hi-end but the WH-R600 is 16 spokes radial front and 20 spokes radial ds on the rear with the nipples at the hub (not the rim). The DT Swiss are just conventional 3x. Hard to get two more radically different designs.

  7. #7
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    www.ci.encinitas.ca.us
    My Bikes
    1959 Capo; 1980 Peugeot PKN-10; 1981 Bianchi; 1988 Schwinn KOM-10;
    Posts
    14,356
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Wheels with a high spoke count are light and reliable. I am glad to put up with a minuscule additional bit of air drag.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
    Peugeot: 1970 UO-8, S/N 0010468
    Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
    Schwinn: 1988 Project KOM-10, S/N F804069

  8. #8
    Small Member maddmaxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    My Bikes
    Leader home built hardtail, Diamondback Response
    Posts
    7,044
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by RoMad View Post
    Stapfam, since you are a man of many wheels you can probably help me with this. I am thinking about putting my Mavic Cosmos on my Specialized and upgrading on my Litespeed. I have read that the wheels that have more spokes ride better because they need less tension, letting the wheel flex a little more. It makes sense to me but I have never heard anyone mention it here.
    I don't believe this to be true (wheel builder joke). To the best of my knowledge there is no reason or advice for wheelbuilders to use less tension on higher spoke count wheels.

    I don't build much anymore but the best wheels in my stable still seem to be Mavic CXP33 rims with 32 spoke radial lacing in the front and 32 spoke half radial/half 3X lacing in the rear. I now use spoke washers on all wheels with elbows in the spokes as the stiffness and rideability is even better with them in place.

    This coming year I may go back to try some 24/28 spoke aero wheels for the TT bike, but that is a special purpose wheel.

    On the other hand, my current MTB wheels are low spoke count, pre built Mavic Crossrides with straight pull bladed spokes and they ride well and seem to be bullitproof as well............go figure. (I think that road bikes may be a little more sensetive about the feel of the wheels)

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    NW AR & Central LA
    Posts
    2,545
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Interesting post as I've been thinking about upgrading my wheels. The current wheels are the ones that came on the bike, Alexrims R500. I have no idea what they weigh, and I suspect they are entry level wheels. All other things (including engine) being equal, would I notice a difference in climbing, and/or acceleration, and/or average speed with a better wheel set? I don't race, but I would like to improve in hill climbing and perhaps average speed.

    I'm very pleased with the reliability of the current wheel set. I have 3,300 miles on them, and they are as true as the day I got the bike. They appear to be what some have called "bomb proof".

  10. #10
    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
    My Bikes
    Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
    Posts
    19,915
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    See if I can answer some of this.

    Personally I don't think it is the Spoke count that affects the comfort of wheels- But the lacing pattern. Radial spoked wheels give a harsher ride as there is less give in the spokes. I have two sets of radial spoked wheel. The OM's that came on the OCR and I do not like them 32spokes radial have a lot less flex in them than 16 spokes. The OCR wheels are harsh. Spoke tension- I let the wheel builder sort it but The spokes have to have a good tension. If They are not tight the wheels will flex. Now on the tyres- I Use a quality tyre on all my wheels and I have settled out on Michelin Pro Race 2's in 23. The Mavic Aksiums I got on the TCR had Michelin Lithions on them and they were changed after a couple of rides to PR2's and I did notice a difference in Grip. Wet roads and the PR2's work better for me and I like the tyres.

    Now I do not like OM wheels. Any OM wheels. For a lot of Bike manufacturers- the price has to be competitive and a Great saving can be made in the wheel department. No- name hubs- Or cheap ones- and Cheap rims do not make for a good wheel. Just pedalling along And you may not notice any difference but get to a fast downhill and the "Extra" drag on the Hub- the flex that comes on wheel will be noticed. I did a ride at around 6 months into road riding on the OCR. I went down a hill and got 30 mph. I was not happy. On the MTB with knobblies on- I get 37 down that hill. I was at this stage thinking that Road riding was not for me. The effort to propel the OCR forward and I was not getting the speed I thought I should. A good workout yes- but it was harder work than I thought it should be. Talked to the LBS and got a set of hand built wheels. Basic 105 hubs- 36 spokes and Mavic CXP33 rims. Next time out and Went down a steep hill I took care of with the OCR wheels. It has a curve in it and I had noticed that the curve at speed was a corner and the OM wheels were flexing. Not so with the Hand Builts. The curve was just a curve and NO flexing. Grip on the tyre was a problem and My first set of PR2's were bought.

    Then along came Boreas and The Ultegra 6600 wheels. These had been tweaked by the Mechanic and It did take some time for me to settle into the New Bike but I did notice that the Ultegra wheels are noisy. Once I got used to the new ride- I Put the Hand built wheels on it. Quieter ride- but to be honest- Not a great deal of difference in comfort. Boreas is a very comfortable ride. Tyres on the Ultegras were Vrederstein Fortezzias- as the Skin colour matched the Bike. May be a good tyre but I did not like them. Not good grip and I wore them out in 600 miles. Must be something about our roads but Back to a set of PR2,s and that was when I found there was not a great deal of difference between the Ultegras and the hand builts.

    Then came the TCR and This came with Mavic Aksiums. The cheapest wheel in the Line of Mavics and my only complaint against them is that they are heavy at 1800 grammes and they look chunky. Not nicely finished in comparison to say the Krysiums but they ride well. Radial spoking but 20 front and 28 rear. They ride well. However- I have a problem on the TCR in that it Bounces a bit on the road. The Aksiums are the worst wheel for that bike and the Ultegras are the best. The hand builts have a bit more give but hit the rough bits of road and they seem to bounce just as roughly but I do not feel it. But on the TCR- the Ultegras are quiet and they definitely give me a feel of the Bike- I do like that. The hand builts just take a bit of the harshness out but as it is a C.F. frame- it is not much in any case.

    Now I reckon that the best upgrade you can give to a bike is in the wheels. I like Hand built wheels, but you have to have a good builder to make them really work. They are cheaper and they are rebuildable. And If you have a set of OM wheels- Give them to a wheelbuilder and let him tweak them. Slacken off the Spokes and retension- Or even let him respoke with a different pattern if he suggests it. Only problem is- It could be cheaper to get him to build new wheels so price things out carefully. Off the shelf Branded wheels are not normally my favourite. Most of them are machine built and churned out. They may look "Bling" with unusual spoking patterns- but In general- they can be expensive and the quality not there for the price you are paying.

    When you get to the higher end wheels though- They are quality. They may be built with racing in mind and require a little more care and maintenance to be taken of them- But A set of top qulaity wheels are not for running down to the shops with. They are special occasion wheels for the century ride next week or the 50 mile speed ride with the club. For the rest of your riding- Just get a pair of Hand built- solid- reliable wheels. Or use the **** ones that came with the bike.

    Sorry about running down OM wheels- But if you do get a decent set of wheels at some stage- you will realise what I am saying.
    How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


    Spike Milligan

  11. #11
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    St Peters, Missouri
    My Bikes
    Rans Enduro Sport, Hase Kettweisel Tandem, Merin Bear Valley beater bike
    Posts
    23,105
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by maddmaxx View Post
    I don't believe this to be true (wheel builder joke). To the best of my knowledge there is no reason or advice for wheelbuilders to use less tension on higher spoke count wheels.
    I can tell you for sure about one low spoke count wheelset. I rebuilt a Shimano "Sweet 16" rear wheel for a Santana tandem. I was told to walk the spokes up to "95" on my wheelsmith tensiometer. I don't know what that works out to be but those are pretty stout spokes. I'm guessing that it's probably somewhere around 150 kg.

  12. #12
    Small Member maddmaxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    My Bikes
    Leader home built hardtail, Diamondback Response
    Posts
    7,044
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    It has been my experience that when spoke tension gets really high on low spoke count wheels that a torsional twist begins to appear in the rim. Ie, the rim may appear to be true but it twists away each spoke. This rolling motion can be felt in a most objectionable way through the brake levers as a vibration.

    Other than that objection, my opinion is the higher the tension the better the wheel (tension limits are when things begin to break.) Modern Deep V rims with eyelets and welded joints allow for much more tension that wheels use to have.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    St Peters, Missouri
    My Bikes
    Rans Enduro Sport, Hase Kettweisel Tandem, Merin Bear Valley beater bike
    Posts
    23,105
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by maddmaxx View Post
    Modern Deep V rims with eyelets and welded joints
    That's a combination that I'm not finding all that often. Velocity Deep-V's, a very commonly recommended rim, are neither welded nor eyeletted. The same is true of the Alex DA28. On the other hand, DT Swiss RR1.2 are both welded and eyeletted for about 1/3 greater cost. (They're very slightly lighter too.)

  14. #14
    Small Member maddmaxx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    My Bikes
    Leader home built hardtail, Diamondback Response
    Posts
    7,044
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
    That's a combination that I'm not finding all that often. Velocity Deep-V's, a very commonly recommended rim, are neither welded nor eyeletted. The same is true of the Alex DA28. On the other hand, DT Swiss RR1.2 are both welded and eyeletted for about 1/3 greater cost. (They're very slightly lighter too.)
    CXP33, welded, eyeleted, machined brake tracks but somewhere between $60 and 70 a rim. Quite possibly the finest generally available rim for the sport wheelbuilder. Not as light as the open pro but a great deal stronger.

    The CXP22 is its budget cousin. Not welded, sleaved and pinned instead but has 2 round extrusions inside the rim for brutal strength. Do not exceed 100-110 kgf on the spokes because the rim is difficult to keep true near the splice. (stick to 32 or more spokes also) This is an excellent touring rim. (Its actually the open sport in deep v form)

    Neither of these rims is the ultimate in light, but neither is the Velocity Deep V and your buying an incredable amount of rim strength with the double walled v section.

    With this rim strength you can easily get away with 28 spokes and DT revolutions or Wheelsmith 2.0/1.7 spokes and have a very sound and smooth riding wheel.

    I still have to try new wheels with the DT 1.1 and 1.2 rims just to see how they feel. It's still my motto, "If you haven't built one, you don't know how it works."

  15. #15
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    St Peters, Missouri
    My Bikes
    Rans Enduro Sport, Hase Kettweisel Tandem, Merin Bear Valley beater bike
    Posts
    23,105
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by maddmaxx View Post
    With this rim strength you can easily get away with 28 spokes and DT revolutions or Wheelsmith 2.0/1.7 spokes and have a very sound and smooth riding wheel.

    I still have to try new wheels with the DT 1.1 and 1.2 rims just to see how they feel. It's still my motto, "If you haven't built one, you don't know how it works."
    I agree.

    "Smooth riding" is a characteristic that, while poorly defined, I've definitely noticed.

    I built a set of 32 spoke Open Pro's for my Klein and, from the very first ride, was surprised at how "smooth" they felt compared to the Rolf Vector Comps that came with the bike. I noticed the same thing yesterday on my first ride on some newly built (32 spoke) Aeroheads.

  16. #16
    Geezer Member Grampy™'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    My Bikes
    Airborne, LeMond, Bianchi CX, Volae Century, Redline 925 (fixed) and a Burley Tandem.
    Posts
    1,384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I confess I din't read the whole thread so if I'm duplicating or way off base here I apologize in advance....

    You want Bomb proof, Velocity deep V in my mind is unmatched. I've got thousands of miles on a set in the worst conditions and they are still perfect.

    A very good set of wheels will improve any bike. I've got a set of Topolinos that at first were going to be saved for only "special" rides..... once I rode them I have a hard time getting off them. Whatever bike I put them on becomes my favorite bike..... They've also proved themselves to be incredibly durable too.
    Carpe who?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •