Catweazle

Sung to the tune of "On Top of Old Smoky"


heh heh....


Here's the deal. As some of you are already aware, I'm a novice rider and I'm not adopting much of a 'scientific' approach to it. Nevertheless I've been doing a fair amount of reading up, and learning from what I've been reading. I've kinda got the hang of spinning those pedals faster than I was originally doing, and using the gears more effectively.

Over the past couple of weeks I've knocked up 400km, and for the "out there riding" component of that I've averaged about 21-22kph. I understand that's sorta OK for my level of experience and on a heavier and slower 'comfort bike'. I can only guesstimate my cadence, but I'd guesstimate it at around 70 to 75 or thereabouts, for the most part. It's definitely better than 60, and it's comfortable enough. I understand, from what I'm reading, that's rather OK too for a rider at my level of development.


So I'm happy enough, except for the fact that I find it awfully damned easy to lose that 'rhythm' when I'm confronted with a harder than usual challenge. When the wind gusts harder, or I come across a bit of a climb that's steeper than 'gentle', I'm finding that the rhythm has disappeared and I'm struggling, and it seems to happen without me even noticing. And it's hard work to get back to where I was.


I need to improve that, before I'm ready to venture further into territory where I want to ride. As mentioned, I don't really want to get too technical and 'professional' about it, and I'm not necessarily looking here for "the answer"! At present, I'm kinda feeling a bit too intimidated to head into the more specialised sections looking for advice too.

What I'm hoping is that some of you more experienced folk might see your way to having a chat about people in situations like mine, and thus help me get my head straight for confronting this little challenge

Jet Travis

I face the same challenges on hills or in the wind. But I've only been riding for 30 years.

stonecrd

In general you want your cadence to be in the 80-100 range. Different people have different natural cadence at which they feel the most comfortable and it does take some work to move it up. My comfort level is about 85 and I have progressively moved my cadence up to the 90-95rpm level.

It is easier to do this if you are using clipless pedal system or toe clips as you are more engaged with the pedal. Also focus on keeping your cadence high and shifting gears to keep it even. If you are going up hill just shift so that your cadence does not change, same for going down hill. Riding with wind is a bit more difficult since gusts will slow you down and you cannot really pick a gear for the gusts since it would probably mean it would be too low most of the time. Having drop bars helps since you can get low and cut the impact of the wind which means the gusts will have less effect. Last get a cheap computer that does speed and cadence and if you can HR.

Mainly focus on your cadence and HR and as you improve your fitness your speed will naturally increase with the same HR and cadence.

DnvrFox

Gears, gears and more gears.

Count your FULL revolutions for 10 seconds, multiply by 6. Not perfect, but close enough.

I say FULL, as in the past we have had folks say their cadence was 100, only to discover that they were counting 1/2 revolutions and their cadence was actually 50.

twobikes

Is your goal to increase your cadence?

I have about decided I am one of those people who has more power than speed in my legs. I might also be able to spin faster if I weighed 170 pounds instead of 204 pounds.

As I read bits and pieces about cadence, I discover missing pieces of the puzzle. When I started riding seriously in the 1970s, ankling at the bottom of the pedal stroke was encouraged. Now you are not supposed to extend your foot at the bottom of the pedal stroke, but keep it flat. I like ankling. It spreads out the work between the top and bottom leg muscles better and gives me a smoother pedal stroke. But, keeping the foot flat at the bottom is supposed to make a higher cadence easier to attain. (Joe Friel in Cycling Past 50)

In the 1970s cadence was something that each person had as a natural inherited rhythm. The idea was to change gears in order to maintain one's natural cadence (and efficiency) during changing conditions. Since Chris Carmichael and Lance Armstrong, we are all supposed to spin at 100 rpm or so. I understand that spinning a bit faster in a lower gear is less arduous than lugging it in a gear too high.

Those who increase their cadence have various strategies for doing it. They have cadence measuring on their cyclometers and try to add 3 to 5 rpm. until it feels normal and then add another 3 to 5 rpm. They spin as fast as they can without rocking their hips while riding on a slight downgrade. They take spinning classes in a gymnasium. They spend a couple of years working up to a higher cadence because it takes a while for all of the small capillaries necessary for more blood delivery to develop in one's legs.

For those of us who do not have a cadence feature on our cyclometers, it is not hard to know our cadence after the fact and make comparisons to other rides. Multiply the constant 336 by your speed in miles per hour. Divide that by your gear in inches. The quotient is your cadence.

I am not Lance Armstrong and never will be.

DnvrFox

OK - but I am 220 lbs and my cadence is 85-90.

Jay Andriot

If you are out of breath you are spinning too fast, if your legs hurt you are mashing too slow. Proper cadence is somewhere between your legs hurting and being out of breath. As a general rule mashing is faster, spinning you can go longer. My cadence varries between 70-105 with 82 on the flats most common.

Catweazle

Jet Travis:

I hope I'm not being misleading. "Improve" is certainly the operative word here. I've no illusions about my potential to turn into a robot

stoncrd:

Having been a tad naive when I already purchased a cheap bike 'pooter which doesn't do cadence, and being on an extremely restricted budget over the coming six months, the purchase of another can't really be justified at this point. I'm sorta stuck with what I've got, for now.

I've an 'upright' bike too, but I've found that I can still lean down a good way, and shift my bum back a tad, to counter those gusts a bit. And although I've not an accurate monitoring of cadence I can 'feel' it slowly but steadily improving, and I suspect that I'm not too far from that '80' point, most of the time anyway. I've the feeling that your finger is right on the pulse of my problems when you mention gear changes. Gear changing on a bike is way different to gear changing in a vehicle, that's for sure, and I'm not feeling 'comfortable' with that yet.

Increasing my speed isn't really a big issue to me, although if more speed comes, as it probably inevitably will, I won't be complaining. But if I can keep more consistently to that 20-25kph it'll be adequate for the riding I want to do later in the year.

twobikes:

My goal isn't so much to increase cadence as it is to develop the capacity to maintain it better than I am. I'm pretty confident that further increases to rotation speed will continue to come, but when I start venturing off for short tours the better I can maintain that the better and easier I'll be riding, I feel. And of course when I'm doing that rather than 'routes' in the vicinity of town I'll be confronting days when I'm riding into the wind for lengthy periods, and days when I'm doing lots of climbing. I don't really want those to turn into "Couldn't get very far" days





I'm very much appreciating the suggestions about better judging cadence, by the way, and will be trying them out when I'm next on the bike.


DnvrFox, (and others mentioning gears):

I'd welcome any suggestions about gear changing. the 'technical stuff' about the bike i have is:

Crankset - Shimano TX-71. 48-38-28T
Cassette- Shimano Megarange 7 speed. 14-16-18-20-22-24-34T

(Off-topic and tongue in cheek) Why the **** do gears get referred to in ******** fashion on bikes, with high gear on the crankset getting denoted as '1', but high gear on the rear cassette getting the highh number as a high gear should?


Some of the regular riders in a 'club ride' I joined in with the other weekend advised me to approach climbing in this fashion:

• Set the chain on a gear about the middle of the cassette.
• Use the crankset to change up and down.

I'm finding that a tad cumbersome. Much of the riding I'm doing on flatter or gently undulating roads is pretty much the other way around, with the crankset on 1 or 2 as warranted by the slope or wind, and working slight variations with the gears at the back. On a flat road with no wind I can work up to and then maintain my rotation in the highest gearing available, and feel pretty comfortable doing that for ages. But when I strike a climb or wind, and then have to change that front cog, I 'lose it' completely and have to really struggle to get back any semblance of comfortable riding, and that takes a toll rather rapidly. Takes a good while to get reasonably 'comfortable' again afterwards.


I'm left with the feeling that I must be 'doing something wrong' regarding gear changes, and having trouble getting my head around it. Prolly just my newness to riding, I suppose. I'm all ears for any comments thrown my way, and very appreciative of them

dck

What the heck is cadence?

twobikes

My wife's bike is similar to yours. "1" does not mean the same thing on the left shifter as it does on the right. I am going to put a little lable on her shift indicators that says "fast" on one side of the indicator's scale and "hill" on the other. Then she can forget the numbers and think about if she needs more power or wants more speed. Shifting eventually becomes 2nd nature, but it does not help when the visual cues contradict one another.

Catweazle

The difference between folding in an egg-white, or whipping up a pavlova, using a hand mixer?

Catweazle

I seriously thought that all bikes which use digits on the gear change were like that. Do you mean to say that they're not? Every bike I've taken the time to look at has used the same approach, if it has any 'numbers' there at all!

The Smokester

I think your instincts are right about how to shift. The front chainwheel sets the average gear range and the rear cassettes are for adjustments about that average. When the going is easy (downhill with a tail wind) you will be on the big front chain and making fine adjustments on the small cassette cogs at the back.

When you hit a big hill you will be on the small chainwheel and the large cassettes at the back. In between (up a slight grade or into a head wind) you will be on the middle front chainwheel and middle rear cogs.

Note that there is a subtley here. It is accepted practice to not use the largest front chainwheel with the largest rear cog because this is cross chaining and puts strain and wear on the cogs, chain and rear derailleur. Similarly, one does not generally use the smallest front chainwheel with the smallest rear cog. It's not the end of the world if you do not follow this practice, however.

It is best to switch between the front chainwheels when faced with a sudden change in slope since it will quickly get you into the range of gears that you will need. As you have noted, though, unless you plan ahead switching the front rings can also break your rythmn.

Here's an example: After blasting along on the flats on the large front and smallest rear cog you encounter a hill. As you start the hill you pump a bit but start to slow. Soon you downshift on the rear cassette to maintain your rythmn and a nice cadence. You continue to slow and downshift on the rear again. And again. Now you are near the middle of your rear cassette. Your cadence continues to slow...but this time you let it slow a little more than before. At some point based on practice and experience, you flip to the middle front ring. Your rythmn and cadence are now restored. If you continue to slow you downshift a couple of times on the rear to larger rear cogs. If the hill continues to steepen and say you are on your second-largest rear cog, then delay a bit and then switch to the smallest ring on the front. Your cadence is restored and you continue up the hill downshifting on the rear if necessary.

Hope this helps.

dbg

I spend way too much time trying to convince my wife to ignore those numbers. She'll say, "you're obviously working a lot less that I am right now, so please tell me the number you're in so I can work at an easier level as well." When I try to explain things to her, she gets annoyed and just demands to "know the number!"

wobblyoldgeezer

Hello
You'll get better advice than mine, but you asked and I've enjoyed your posts, so for what it's worth (Which is about what you're paying for it)

I'd say a cadence of about 80 is fine for someone who says he's new. I'd say the issues to think about are, firstly, are you pedalling all round the circle, and second, do your gears allow you to shift easily to keep in your comfortable +/-80?

Roundy round, not up and down. Lots of cyclists bike like they hike - alternate downward pressure. Consciously try to rotate, emphasise the forwards and backwards pressure, not only the up and down. A number of mental images to help, particularly the 'scrape something off your shoe between 4 and 8 o'clock' of the rotation. Toe clips help with this. They also help to lift the upcoming foot - not to try to put upward pressure, but certainly to minimise the extra effort of lifting 40 lbs of hambone on the upcoming leg

Gears - I'd not completely agree with the advice to keep the back cogs constant and make big shifts on the front. In fact, I'd say the opposite. On a triple, I'd advise riding mainly on the middle, make small and quick adjustments on the back cassette, save the big and small ring for the fastest or slowest parts of the ride (bombing or bailing)

The main thing is - you'll find your comfy pace the more you do! Enjoy

John E

I am definitely a spinner (typically ~100 RPM), except when climbing. Yes, gears help immensely, which is why I am so amused/disgusted with the whole single speed freewheel fad.

wobblyoldgeezer

[QUOTE=Catweazle;6413490]
Some of the regular riders in a 'club ride' I joined in with the other weekend advised me to approach climbing in this fashion:

• Set the chain on a gear about the middle of the cassette.
• Use the crankset to change up and down.

Forgive me - you were there and I wasn't

But is there a possibility of a gap between what the club riders transmitted and what you received? Might they have meant
Set the chain on the middle chainring
Use the cassette to change up and down

If there is that possibility, I'd be inclined to follow the second interpretation

Catweazle

dbg, maybe your problem is the same one which dictates that we should put aside the ego and get somebody else to teach our kids to drive.



The Smokester, thank you so much for taking the time to type out that explanation. Seeing it explained that way makes a LOT of sense to me, and I'll be putting in the effort to practice and try to get an approach like that to become 'automatic' for me. All too often, as I've found from coaching other activities with newbie adults, the problem with the teaching lies in the telling of it, and too much of the subtlety remains unsaid because it's taken for granted. Your explanation doesn't do that. instead it fills out and explains the necessary subtleties.

I'll be fitting in a reasonable ride tomorrow, and plan to go put some time in on a hill which is the 'challenge' component of a group ride I wish to join in with during the weekend. Next week I suspect it'd be a good idea to transport the bike out of town a few days, and put my practice in riding around steeper country. I'll be able to put more time in working on the approach you've described if I do that.


wobblyoldgeezer, as far as I can determine the pedals I have on this bike are called 'Nylon comfort' platform pedals. I ride in comfortable 'slipper' type sneakers with chunky soles on them, and they mesh rather well with the pedals to give me good grip. Despite not using toe clips or clipless I'm certainly getting power into that '4 o'clock to 8 o'clock' part of the rotation you mention, when I'm working at riding rather than just lazily meandering along. I read plenty of comment about clipless pedals/cycling shoes when I got here, and why people use them, and made conscious effort to incorporate that principle into my riding. It's getting to 'feel' quite natural to do so now, and I no longer really consciously think about it.

Maybe that'll change when I start to do more climbing and work harder at it. If I start to feel that I need the better 'connection' I plan to try toe clips pretty quicksmart.


The gear change on this bike is very good. There are a couple of small adjustments need to be made, but the bike is due back for 'after-sales' checking and adjustment anyway, so that'll be attended to. changing to '1' on the crankset necessitates a second quick flick of the thumb. The bike doesn't particularly like '7' on the cassette (especially of the front is on the middle cog) and at times jumps between 6 and 7. Not really problems, and they're minor matters which I expect to see resolved with the service. Other than that the gear changing is very precise, and I'm very happy with it.


And no, by the way. There was no misunderstanding in the communication on that club ride. What was said to me was definitely to set the gearing on the cassette at about the middle and then to use the crankset for gear changes afterwards. I adopted that approach on the ride which was lengthy and rather hilly, wasn't comfortable with it at all, and then afterwards had difficulty trying to find and adjust to a different and better approach.

deraltekluge

No. Under any particular condition there's an optimum. The trick is to find that optimum. And it'll be different for different people.

wobblyoldgeezer

That's great. It sounds to me like you're enjoying yourself, you're balancing others' views with your own experience, and you're finding that the more you do the more you like it. Bonne Continuation, as my French friends say!!

deraltekluge

Totally backward! Use the cassette for most of your shifting. Typically, shifting the front derailleur is about equivalent to two or three shifts at the cassette. Pick the front gearing for the general conditions of slope and wind, and use the rear gearing to make the finer adjustments. Further, the rear shifts easier and quicker, and shifts better under load. Huh? I've never seen that. "1" has always been the lowest gear. In the front, low is the smallest gear, while in the rear, low is the largest gear. And the shifters work in opposite directions...but the numbering is consistent, with low gear ratios being "1" and higher ratios being the larger number (if there are numbers, that is...some shifters have numbers, and some don't).

BluesDawg

Sometimes it helps to think about circles as you pedal.

Catweazle

I also find it rather weird that for the left shifter (crank) it's index finger to shift down and thumb to shift up, whilst on the right shifter (cassette) it's the other way round, with index finger shifting up and thumb shifting down. That right side/left side reversal still isn't reflex for me yet, and doubtless that's contributing to my problems as well.


Oh well! Some places in the world people drive on the wrong side of the road. Life's full of little hurdles to overcome.

deraltekluge

In either case, index finger shifts to a smaller gear, thumb shifts to a larger gear. It's just that smaller and larger gears produce different effects front and rear.

FL_Chad

Great discussion.
I've been off the bike for years, and when I did ride regularly it was on my roadie...for a long time I used a computer for cadence and developed a pretty keen feel for my "normal" which is around 90.

I've since returned to the bike (a city-fied MTB) and have noticed (age has some effect) that I "spin" slower than I used to, but I do use the gears to find my comfort zone -- probably around 80-85.

As I've gotten some mileaged on the bike I have settled on the large chainring and middle cassettes for about 99% of my riding (it's real flat here on the Florida coast)...I've noticed too that I don't head for the "lower" gears as often.

Cadence is a beautiful thing. As you progress, you'll learn where your comfortable spin-zone (apologies to Bill O'Reilly) is and pick your gear for that. I will say that spinning at 90 or so rpm while on the grannie gears does look pretty silly, but it saves the knees!!