Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Fifty Plus (50+) Share the victories, challenges, successes and special concerns of bicyclists 50 and older. Especially useful for those entering or reentering bicycling.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-30-08, 06:06 AM   #1
bebeck625
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Somewhere along the Erie Canal....
Bikes:
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
New rider here!

Hi everyone, I'm a new rider, or will be soon as I get my wheels!!

Here's the thing: I'm not quite 50 yet..... I will be in a year, can I join you all anyways?!

I've always been active, up until about a year ago (long story) but haven't rode a bike for more than a few minutes in years.

I decided that I was going to back into shape before I turn 50, and bike riding is the way I want to do it!

I am looking at either a '08 Trek 7100 or a Motobecane Elite. I am not interested in racing, but more distance riding, sometimes on trails. Any comments on these two hybrid bikes?

I've been reading everyone's posts with great interest, and hope you'll all let me join your discussions!
bebeck625 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 06:09 AM   #2
TruF 
My other car is a bike
 
TruF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Wine Country, 1 hour north of San Francisco
Bikes: Specialized Ruby
Posts: 1,304
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Welcome, bebeck625! You'll get lots of feedback about hybrids here. But you'll have to wait until Tom wakes up.
__________________
Embrace diversity: hug a conservative.
TruF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 06:38 AM   #3
DnvrFox
Banned.
 
DnvrFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Bikes:
Posts: 20,916
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You can join, but you will have to stand in line!


Last edited by DnvrFox; 07-30-08 at 06:45 AM.
DnvrFox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 06:46 AM   #4
George
Senior Member
 
George's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Katy Texas
Bikes: Specialized Roubaix
Posts: 5,409
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
If your willing to put up with this bunch, it doesn't make any difference to me, enjoy and welcome aboard.
__________________
George
George is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 07:18 AM   #5
Beverly
Senior Member ??
 
Beverly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Englewood,Ohio
Bikes: 2007 Trek Madone 5.0 WSD - 2007 Trek 4300 WSD - 2008 Trek 520 - 2014 Catrike Trail
Posts: 5,094
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Welcome

I know nothing about the Motobecane but know my choice would be the Trek. I have three and have been more than satisifed with each one. I think the biggest reason for liking them has been the great bike shop where I purchased them.
__________________
=============================================================

Enjoy the little things in life, for one day you may look back and realize they were the big things.
-- Antonio Smith
Beverly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 07:29 AM   #6
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Bikes:
Posts: 11,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Howdy bebeck625! Like Beverly said, a good shop can be an important part of the experience.
What part of the world are you in? Why a hybrid and not a road bike?
big john is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 07:50 AM   #7
Burr
Off your Donkey, lets go
 
Burr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Gardens, Roses & Orchids. Bulacan The Philippines and Red Mountain, Ca. USA
Bikes: Schwinn Mountain, Diamondback Expert Road & REI Randonee Touring
Posts: 601
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Greetings and WELCOME.

Tell us about yourself, where you from, what do you do.

Life's wonderful, come ride with us.
Burr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 03:02 PM   #8
Tom Bombadil
His Brain is Gone!
 
Tom Bombadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Paoli, Wisconsin
Bikes: RANS Stratus, Bridgestone CB-1, Trek 7600, Sun EZ-Rider AX, Fuji Absolute 1.0, Cayne Rambler 3
Posts: 9,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Biggest difference between those two bikes is that the Trek has a suspension fork while the Motobecane uses a rigid fork. Given that the Motobecane has an aluminum frame, it's going to be a bit bumpier than the Trek. But those 40mm tires will cushion bumps. Shouldn't be a problem on streets or smooth trails.

I'm not quite sure what a Shimano "button" shifter is, so I have that concern about the Motobecane.

If you go with the Motobecane, make sure you know what size is the best fit for you. And unless you are very handy with bike adjustments, you'll probably have to pay a bike shop to finish the set up for you.
__________________
"Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L'Amour

There are two types of road bikers: bikers who are faster than me, and me. Bruce Cameron - Denver Post
Tom Bombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 03:11 PM   #9
Floyd
el padre
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: South East Kansas
Bikes: Rans Stratus, ICE TRike, other assorted
Posts: 1,490
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Just a welcome and you are not the only 'youngster' that has joined in on our fun...with bikes.
Floyd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 03:13 PM   #10
cyclinfool
gone ride'n
 
cyclinfool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Upstate NY
Bikes: Simoncini, Gary Fisher, Specialized Tarmac
Posts: 4,051
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Welcome aboard:
I must warn you though - to fit in you will need to do the following:
1) Swap your saddle for a Brooks
2) Wear bib shorts
3) Ride your age
4) Eat pie
5) Swap your factory built wheels for hand built wheels
6) Write several long posts about colonoscopys
7) Order a 50+ jersey
8) Post lots of pictures
9) Don't buy a white bike
10) Start thinking about N+1
11) AND Never argue with Tom!

Those are all the rules I can think of right now but I am sure you will get the hang of things...
cyclinfool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 03:30 PM   #11
Tom Bombadil
His Brain is Gone!
 
Tom Bombadil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Paoli, Wisconsin
Bikes: RANS Stratus, Bridgestone CB-1, Trek 7600, Sun EZ-Rider AX, Fuji Absolute 1.0, Cayne Rambler 3
Posts: 9,980
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclinfool View Post
11) AND Never argue with Tom!

Those are all the rules I can think of right now but I am sure you will get the hang of things...
If this is a rule, I might want to invite my wife to join 50+.
__________________
"Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L'Amour

There are two types of road bikers: bikers who are faster than me, and me. Bruce Cameron - Denver Post
Tom Bombadil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 03:40 PM   #12
Metric Man
Old Fart Racing
 
Metric Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Draper UT
Bikes: 2015 Trek Domane 6.9 disc D/A Di2
Posts: 1,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Welcome aboard...I was here for almost a year before fifty too...I just didn't tell anyone.
Metric Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 03:46 PM   #13
The Weak Link
Banned.
 
The Weak Link's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Post-partisan Paradise
Bikes: GF Wahoo '05, Trek T1000 '04, Lemond Buenos Aires '07
Posts: 4,938
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metric Man View Post
Welcome aboard...I was here for almost a year before fifty too...I just didn't tell anyone.
What?!
The Weak Link is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 04:05 PM   #14
Metric Man
Old Fart Racing
 
Metric Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Draper UT
Bikes: 2015 Trek Domane 6.9 disc D/A Di2
Posts: 1,347
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Weak Link View Post
What?!
Hey, you guys are a tough crowd...I didn't want to get flamed!
Metric Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-30-08, 10:49 PM   #15
Mojo Slim
Lincoln, CA
 
Mojo Slim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lincoln, CA
Bikes: 94 Giant ATX 760, 2001 Biachi Eros, 2005 Giant OCR2 Composite +
Posts: 2,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I don't know nothin' 'bout no hybrids, but welcome.
__________________
Truth is stranger than reality.
'96 Giant ATX 760 MTB
'01 Bianchi Eros
'05 Giant OCR Llimited Carbon Fiber + upgrades
Mojo Slim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 05:59 AM   #16
bebeck625
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Somewhere along the Erie Canal....
Bikes:
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hey thanks for the welcome everyone! I can tell I'm going to like it here!

Big John asked why a hybrid and not a road bike? I have always been very active, but not competitive in the least. I taught myself to ski when I was 7, because I didn't like the way the instructors were doing it, and they were pushing my brother and I to compete- not for me. So, I figured- without doing much research- that road bikes are made more for racing? Also, I am looking to get back into shape, it's been well over a year since I've done anything at all, and I like the idea of distance riding with a hybrid with maybe twice a month rides on trails.

I will take any and all advice though that anyone wants to give!

I'm 49, female, from the Finger Lakes area of NY. All my kids are grown, and my two new "babies" are Golden Retriever puppies, one just over, and one just under a year. I'm not working right now, but am going to school on and off.

I was raised by parents who placed a huge emphasis on being physically active, and actually made it fun for my brother and I. I was skiing and waterskiing at a very young age. Played all sorts of sports in school, and rode horses constantly. I always loved bike riding and would go on long trips all the time- that however was a very long time ago! I havent' rode a bike for more than a few miles in years. However, it's something I would really like to do, and one of the things I can do now.

I had knee surgery a few years ago, and at first my doctor told me I would never ride a bike again. Last summer the PT I was seeing said there was no reason why I couldn't ride a bike with proper fit. She had me on an exercise bike and I had no pain at all.

I think I definitely need to be going to a bike shop so I can be properly fitted. My goal is to get back into shape, ride distance, ride at least an hour every day. Right now, I have no desire to race, but would like to work on riding with my son in law next year part of the way across country.

Okay, so I am open for suggestions!
bebeck625 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 06:30 AM   #17
mandovoodoo
Violin guitar mandolin
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Friendsville, TN, USA
Bikes: Wilier Thor, Fuji Professional, LeMond Wayzata
Posts: 1,171
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Problem I see is linking "hybrid" with "training"

Rarely considered, power output and type of bike go hand in hand. Training increases power output. Potential for outgrowing a bike designed for relatively low power output is pretty high. With real training involved.

Higher power output tends to make people want to bend over, get the rear end engaged. Working out and stretching also creates greater structural fitness, making bending over easier.

Another aspect is comfort. Upright and flat bars are comfortable at low output and short distance, less so by far than bars offering lots of positions and a more balanced weight distribution. More power, more weight on pedals, less need for saddle "comfort" features.

Another potential problem is the bike limiting the training. Someone only riding a cruiser will pretty soon max out the cruiser's training support potential. They'll be a great cruiser rider. At the same time, a relatively out of shape beginner is probably going to have trouble with a full blown stage race bicycle.

Cruiser - comfort - hybrid - then things diverge a bit these days. Used to be lots of road utility "10 speeds" that worked OK on easy trails. Harder to find. Cyclocross bikes come pretty close. Anyway. Touring bike. Club racer. Racing bike. Those tend to represent greater and greater ability to handle power and the speed that comes with it.

Since training gives more power, there's a problem in choosing a bicycle. The ease and comfort of riding depend on the power, too. For example, riding my go-fast road bike slowly is really a pain. No power input, the handling isn't great a really low speeds, too much weight on pedals. On the other hand, my double sprung comfort tow the dog in a trailer bike won't handle power gracefully. I'd probably crash if I tried putting full sprint power into it all at once.

From hybrid, I'd at least consider popping up to touring or modified cyclocross style if longer distances and higher power are potentially in the future. Can get a riser to pop the bars up a bit.

With women, getting a bike too long is also easy to do by mistake. The riser lets a smaller frame work. Which is often a good thing. Want some weight on the front wheel.

To give perspective, I use a Giant Cypress DS comfort bike for loafing around and hauling a trailer. Upright, high bars, cushy. It's great! I can't make it go fast or around corners, but for what it is, it's great. I could ride that an hour a day and still get fat. Prefers to go about 9 mph.

I generally commute on a LeMond Wayzata rigged with drop bars, a riser, fenders, racks, pump, flashers, bags, and platform pedals with "power grip" straps. I could ride this all day, and find myself wondering why I need a go-fast bike. Then I get warmed up and start pushing it. Performance comes apart. It simply doesn't like really high speed handling and proves sluggish. I can't get full power output anyway, my head ends up down on the stem! Prefers to go 10 to 14 mph.

Then I have a carbon Wilier with skinny tires, clipless pedals, and a dropped position. This one is a pain to ride slowly without power With power up hills, very stable. Just loafing along, too twitchy. Needs to be driven hard to work right. Gets better feeling and handling the more power that's put in. Prefers to go 20 mph.

One bike only? I'd probably pick the Wayzata and miss the Wilier all the time! But I can't get groceries on the Wilier.

Windsor Tourist
Novara Randonee or Safari
Trek 520 Portland Pilot


If I were going comfort/hybrid I'd probably build up a Schwinn Skyliner from Walmart at $150. Take it apart, put it back together. Use that for slow rides and save up for Trek 520.


Have fun!
mandovoodoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 06:37 AM   #18
maddmaxx 
Small Member
 
maddmaxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Bikes: Leader home built hardtail, Diamondback Response
Posts: 7,140
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1216 Post(s)
The hybred, road bike, Mountain bike or Cyclocross bike discussion is one of the hot topics for the 50+ crowd. It comes up so often because there are so many of us and, surprise.....................we all ride slightly differently. There is NO correct answer to the question..............or rather, all answers that work for you are correct. The hybred bike label is a rather broad swath of bicycle designs that range from upright bikes not too different from beach cruisers to "relaxed geometry" road bikes that have most of the fit/function of "racing" road bikes but are more comfortable to ride.

You have already made the first leap..............unless you know a lot about bicycles, your going to need a good LBS for fit and maintenance. The oft stated motto here is "shop for the shop, not the bicycle". Visit as many bicycle shops as possible, ask questions and try to get a feel for how interested each one is in your continued enjoyment of cycling. When you start feeling comfortable about a shop, then you are ready to begin the search for your first bike.

Decide in advance what the surface is that you are going to ride on. All pavement leads to a different bike than some pavement/some unpaved trails.

Know this however.................your first bike is often not your last/next or best bike. You will learn a lot over the first full season of riding. Your shape and conditioning will change. You may find that some of the assumptions that you made that led to the first bike are changing. Many here have begun with relatively simple hybreds and gone on to full carbon road bikes. If you like our hobby/lifestyle your will eventually want to ride..........and ride............and ride.
__________________
We are an empire. Be sure to use it wisely.
maddmaxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 06:59 AM   #19
Hask12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 368
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I've owned a hybrid and didn't like it. I felt it didn't handle all that well on the trails, and felt it was heavy and sluggish on the road. On the other hand a road bike isn't just for training, but should be ridden just on the road. I don't know where you live but if you look around you can see some pictures people have taken of areas they've ridden through on their road bikes. Some of these areas should be taken at a nice easy pace to enjoy the view.
Hask12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 07:15 AM   #20
Beverly
Senior Member ??
 
Beverly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Englewood,Ohio
Bikes: 2007 Trek Madone 5.0 WSD - 2007 Trek 4300 WSD - 2008 Trek 520 - 2014 Catrike Trail
Posts: 5,094
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bebeck625 View Post
Hey thanks for the welcome everyone! I can tell I'm going to like it here!

So, I figured- without doing much research- that road bikes are made more for racing? Also, I am looking to get back into shape, it's been well over a year since I've done anything at all, and I like the idea of distance riding with a hybrid with maybe twice a month rides on trails.

I will take any and all advice though that anyone wants to give!
I had the same idea when I returned to biking a few years ago. I started with a hybrid and switched to a road bike when I began doing longer rides. The other reason for switching was I couldn't keep up with the grandkids on my hybrid I gave them the hybrids and I bought a road bike

A road bike will allow more riding positions on the longer rides and they're lighter making it easier to climb hills.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bebeck625 View Post
I had knee surgery a few years ago, and at first my doctor told me I would never ride a bike again. Last summer the PT I was seeing said there was no reason why I couldn't ride a bike with proper fit. She had me on an exercise bike and I had no pain at all.

I think I definitely need to be going to a bike shop so I can be properly fitted. My goal is to get back into shape, ride distance, ride at least an hour every day. Right now, I have no desire to race, but would like to work on riding with my son in law next year part of the way across country.

Okay, so I am open for suggestions!
As someone else said, find a bike shop you like. They can make all the difference in choosing the right bike. Tell them you're just getting back into cycling but you want to do longer distances in the future.

If you're a shorter woman like me (5'3") take a look at the WSD (women specific design) bikes. I have two WSD bikes and my touring bike didn't have a WSD option. My bike shop swapped some parts when I purchased it and it fits me fine. A good LBS will work with you to find the bike that fits you and your riding style.

Be sure to take lots of test rides. Once you find something you might like ask the bike shop if you can take it on a longer ride. I've been dealing with the same LBS for years and they allowed me to take bikes for 3 days before I purchased mine.

Have fun during this process. Just keep in mind the bike is just the beginning. There will be shoes, clothing, helmets, gloves, bags for the bike.....the list just goes on and on. I've found I enjoy shopping in the bike shop more than the mall
__________________
=============================================================

Enjoy the little things in life, for one day you may look back and realize they were the big things.
-- Antonio Smith
Beverly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 07:20 AM   #21
GrayFalcon
2 wheels 1 mission
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Almost in the middle of Southern Ontario, Canada
Bikes: Trek 7100 hybrid, an old Fuji road (retired), even older Peugeot (mounted)
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
From one newbie to another

Hi, I'm new here myself. I bought a Trek 7100 in May for a 200km charity ride (125 miles - what can I say, I'm Canadian - we work in metric) and I love the bike. I now use it for my 22km daily commute and have only one suggestion - upgrade the wheels. The Trek wheels are the only ones I've ever popped a spoke on.
GrayFalcon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 07:27 AM   #22
Burr
Off your Donkey, lets go
 
Burr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Gardens, Roses & Orchids. Bulacan The Philippines and Red Mountain, Ca. USA
Bikes: Schwinn Mountain, Diamondback Expert Road & REI Randonee Touring
Posts: 601
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beverly View Post
I

Have fun during this process. Just keep in mind the bike is just the beginning. There will be shoes, clothing, helmets, gloves, bags for the bike.....the list just goes on and on. I've found I enjoy shopping in the bike shop more than the mall
Beverly, You're cool
Burr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 10:13 AM   #23
buelito
train safe
 
buelito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 801
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
definition of a hybrid (NOTE--THIS IS MY DEFINITION)-- A compromise between a road bike and a mountain bike that embodies the worst aspects of each.

train safe-
buelito is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 10:19 AM   #24
bebeck625
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Somewhere along the Erie Canal....
Bikes:
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Wow, this is great! Great information!~ I'm glad I didn't just go out and buy a bike before joining here!

So, now it makes more sense for what I want to have a road bike.... I am going to want it to help me get into shape and stay that way, the only thing is I hate those low handlebars, I always feel like my mid section is squished, even though I am thin, and that I am leaning too far over. Of course I've never rode a really good bike before.... Is there a possibility of having higher or a different type of handlebars?

Right now, I'm looking at taking a couple of weeks and going to different bike shops. There is only one anywhere near me, but several within an hour. I had no idea there was such a big difference in shops too.

Can anyone explain the difference between a men's frame and a women's? Is it the length? I'm 5'5" but assume I will go with a women's frame?
Thanks everyone!
bebeck625 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-08, 01:23 PM   #25
big john
Senior Member
 
big john's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Bikes:
Posts: 11,579
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 39 Post(s)
Some companies market bikes that are "Women Specific". This usually means they have a shorter top tube and sometimes smaller bars. It could mean pink, too. Other than that, road frames can be used by anyone who can fit on them. Fit is the thing. If you aren't comfortable, you won't enjoy riding, no matter what some bike shop employee tells you. If you want the bars up high, you're going to have to find a way to get them up high.
Some of the women I know ride frames not marketed as "Women Specific", and some prefer the special women's models. You just have to try them and see. It might take a little time to figure out what you like.
Here's a link to some pics of some of the women I ride with.
Riding with the ladies.

Last edited by big john; 07-31-08 at 01:28 PM.
big john is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:16 PM.