lotek 

We've discussed this issue before on training/nutrition but I'd like to hear from the
folks who it would most apply to.

I take 1500mg Glucosamine sulfate and 1200mg Chondroitan sulfate daily. I do not take MSM.

DnvrFox

Msm?

joeprim

I just take one pill I think it's 500 mg. of G/C. My dog also takes dog biskets with G/C in them and it really helps her.

Joe

lotek 

Dnvr,

I culled the following about Msm from a few web sites:

MSM - Methylsulfonylmethane an important nutritional supplement found in unprocessed milk and fruits.
Most benefits of MSM can be traced to research on DMSO, including increased joint movement, reduced swelling, improved circulation, and the reduction of scar tissue and calcium deposits.
MSM helps prevent painful calcification of tissues and breaks up calcium deposits inside the joints.

Marty

DnvrFox

Thanks - was not aware of this supplement.

Why don't you take it?

lotek 

I find that the glucosamine and chondroitan work fine for me. I haven't had problems
with calcium deposits (either buildup of them or pain etc. caused by them).
Thats really the only reason.
I do find I move alot better with the glucosamine/chondriotan complex, less achy
less stiffness in the mornings etc. Placebo effect? heck I don't know, all I do know
is I feel better.
The way I see it, there is NO literature that glucosamine/chondroitan (and msm for that matter) causes negative results, problems etc. so it can't hurt. All 3 are naturally
occuring substances so I'm comfortable with them. The only thing to be aware of
is dosage (sometime "serving" is 3 caps, sometimes 2 etc.) in terms of cost, and
the Sulfate form seems to be more beneficial (in terms of the body using it) than
the Hydrocloride form (of Glucosamine and Chondroitan).

Marty

orguasch

if I ride my bike on my nights off and on my weekends off, that is equivalent to all the vitamins and viagra's anybody can take. No I don't take anything

Guest

My mom is 64 and she swears by that stuff. She also takes that shark cartilege stuff. She used to have knee problems, but not since she started taking that stuff like 5 or 6 years ago.

Koffee

RonH

Marty, I didn't realize you were over 50. From what I've read in some of your posts I thought you were late 30s.



Same here. The MSM really bothered my stomach.

lotek 

Ron,

Chronologically, yeah over 50.
When I was back in college a friend of mine kept having this recurring thought
that she would look in the mirror and see a 40yo looking back at her.
Me? I'm convinced I fell into a time warp and I'm really mid to late 30's. . .
but that darn mirror keeps lying to me.

Marty

greywolf

I took glucosamine in the form of Jointex + the same stuff with some extras thrown in, it did seem to help my knee but the biggest & unexpepected benifit is that it stopped my jaw bone joints clicking !! a thing that has annoyed me & my family for a few years now ! So that was good .I don't take it now but I will resume if my knee (or my jaw) starts playing up again .

DnvrFox

You need to look a Glucosamine and Chondtoitin as preventatives, not as cures, although they can be helpful in curing.

All of us start having osteoarthritis at some point in our lives - generally mid 20's. It varies from person to person, but all of us start to lose joint cartilage, etc., and these compounds actually build things up.

DanS

I'm taking one "triple strength" G/C capsule daily. I started a short time ago, doing the 3 they recommended initially. My knees started to feel "tight", don't know if that's an indication of it working or what. Anyway, I went back to just one, and will see what happens, since my knees have given me occasional problems for 20 years.

pinerider

My knees are bad from hockey injuries, I've been taking 500mg a day of Glocosimine Sulphate for the past 3 months, I've noticed a huge difference. My knees would be sore before after a long road ride, especially if there was lots of hills. I took 1500mg a day for a month or so, then down to 500 mg a day.
I don't take the Chondoitran because I take an aspirin a day as a blood thinner (had a blood clot in my leg a few years ago). My knees feel great now, very little discomfort.

The Glucosamin Sulphate really works!!! Our dog could hardly walk, my niece the vet prescribed glucosamine sulphate in with his dinner, a month later he was back chasing cats!

late

I take Glucosamine Sulfate. The other stuff is mainly there to help get the glucosamine into the joint (at least thats the way I understand it). Didn't do much for me. I take one with breakfast and another with lunch.

G.L. Andrews

I just started taking Glucosamine / Chondroition caplets. Was told to give it about 3 months. Three weeks I imagine is too soon to notice anything. The Glucosamine sulfate; is it a powder or pills or what?

Garry A.

late

Glucosamine sulfate is the best. It's all you really need to take.
It took me a couple days to notice an improvement. IMHO, if you haven't noticed anything in 3 weeks, either the stuff is crap ( a real possiblity) or you don't need it.

John E

I take glucosamine and condroitin, plus a number of other supplements, including Saw Palmetto, kelp, Coenzyme Q, and the usual cast of vitamins and minerals. My only joint problem so far is occasional pain under my thrice-dislocated left kneecap.

LittleBigMan

This subject interests me as my wife has suffered (to put it mildly) rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis for many, many years. The cause of these conditions is the destruction of the joints, in part by the body's own immune system.

I'm not an expert, nor do I want to discourage anyone from taking anything that might help them. But this is interesting reading:

GLUCOSAMINE SAFE? EFFECTIVE?

Gabe Mirkin, M.D.

A study in last week's British medical Journal, Lancet, [2001] shows for the first time that glucosamine helps to ****** the breakdown of cartilage. Up to now, studies showed only that glucosamine helps to relieve pain. People with arthritis received either 1500 mg of glucosamine or placebo. X rays of their knees showed that the placebo group lost more distance between the bones of their knees than the glucosamine group.

The ends of bones at the knee joint are covered with cartilage, so the greater the distance between the bones on X ray, the greater the amount of cartilage. There is a serious problem with the study. People with arthritis often cannot fully straighten their knees, so it is impossible to use distance between bones to determine how much cartilage is lost. For example, if a person bends his knees a little, he will have the bones closer together than when he holds his knees straight. That means that anything that blocks pain will allow person to straighten his knees and have a greater distance between the bones at the knee. You should get the same benefit from any pain medicine. Furthermore, the study was sponsored by Rotta Research Group, who could gain billions of dollars from sales promoted by this study.

An earlier editorial in Lancet, raises questions about the safety of glucosamine (2). Most research shows that glucosamine can help to relieve some of the pain associated with arthritis (3), but does not help to prevent cartilaginous damage and has not been shown to heal broken cartilage. Therefore, it is no more effective in treating arthritis than aspirin, but costs more than aspirin, but less than most brand name arthritis pain drugs that your doctor prescribes.

Glucosamine helps form aggrecan, the part of cartilage that allows cartilage to swell and shrink, acting like a shock absorber to help protect your knees from the trauma of running and walking. Adding glucosamine to cartilaginous cells in a test tube causes them to increases production of aggrecan (4).

However, in light of this good news, you should know that glucosamine blocks the effects of insulin, causing blood sugar levels to rise and(5,6,7) increasing likelihood of suffering the side effects of diabetes in susceptible people.

1) Lancet January 27, 2001

2 )Mark Adams: editorial The Lancet July 31, 1999, 354(9176):353-354.

3) Muller-Fabbender et al. Glucosamine compared to ibuprofen in osteoarthritis of the knee. Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 1994;2:61-69.

4)Bassler et al. Stimulation of Proteoglycan production by glucosamine sulfate in chondrocytes isolated from human osteoarthritis articular cartilage in vitro. Osteoarthritis Cartilage. 1998;6:427-434.

5) Am J Physiol Cell Physiol 1996;270:C803-11.

6) Diabetes 1995;45:1003-10089.

7) Proc Assoc Am Phys 1998;110:422-432.

trmcgeehan

I am 66, and I have moderate arthritis in both knees. My doctor recommended I take 1500 mg of Glucosamine and 1200 mg of Condroitin. I have been taking this for a year. I also take 400 mg of Ibuprofin per day. Since starting this regimin, I have been virtually pain free in my knees. I used to be a runner, but my doc said to limit my running and concentrate on cycling, which I have done. He said cycling is excellent because with every pedal stroke, the liquid in the cartelige flushes out and then comes back in. He said the cartilege in inactive people doesn't get this flushing action, and their cartilege becomes brittle and breaks off. I don't know if the Glucosamine or the Ibuprofin or the cycling is doing the job, maybe they all are (I cycle 40-50 miles a week). One thing I have learned, Glucosamine is not regulated, and a producer can legally falsify how much Glucosamine is in a pill. So one has to pick a reputable producer. Probably you shouldn't buy it over the internet. I use Osteo-Biflex, which is supposedly the number one choice of Glucosamine users. I take triple strength pills, which are 750 mg. So I only have to take a pill in the morning and a pill at night. I used to take three 500 mg pills a day, but typically I forgot to take my noon pill. According to my doc, ideally you should spread the dosage over the whole day, and not take it all at once. Probably any reputable company (Walgreen, Walmart, Rite Aid, Medicine Shoppe, etc.) will make sure what is on the label is actually in the pill. The University of Utah has just completed the first extensive test of Glucosamine/Condroitin. The test was a double blind study involving over 3,000 users. The results have not been published, and probably won't until sometime in 2005. My other doctor, who is with the VA, is skeptical of the benefits. He says there is no proof that the Glucosamine you take somehow works its way to the joint you are trying to improve -- i.e. rebuilding damaged cartilege. The Utah test should shed some light on this. We will see. But in the meantime, I am going to continue doing what I am doing. One last thought. Shop around for the best prices. For example, every few months, Walgreen has a two for one sale on Glucosamine. Normally, you would pay $44 for 160 750 mg pills, but with the sale, you get 320 for the same price, which reduces your cost to around 14 cents a pill. I don't think Walmart ever has this kind of sale, although their single bottle 160 pill price is less than Walgreen (around $36). I have talked to four middle aged doctors in town who are active in sports. They all take Glucosamine.

lotek 

All I know is that since I started taking Glucosamine my knees have
pretty much stopped making that popping sound when I flex them.
placebo effect? could be but I kind of doubt it.
It seems to me the anecdotal evidence is high that its doing something
beneficial.

off topic but my favourite diagnosis (when I used to work in the psych field) is
psychoceramic - a crackpot.

Marty

megaman

I started taking glucosamine/chondroitan about a month ago. I've had some ankle pains that just don't seem to go away. I started taking this when I learned my wife was taking it and was sleeping a full night. She was taking celebrex, but it just wasn't working and she would wake up several times a night. I guess I won't argue with success, even though I've tried numerous times!

Freestyle

I have tryed most everything mentioned above, with some success. I was in Sams club checking out "stuff" trying to spend money as usual and came up on an older lady filling a cart with bottles of " Joint care " she said she sends it to friends who can't get it. I bought a bottle and another and another after about 3 months my hands were like new no clicking when I made a fist. This stuff is good it contains 2000mg Glucosamine bosted with Chondroitin, MSM & Collagen. It is a ounce a day liquid you drink ( one ounce ). For you who know what I'm saying give it a try. It took about 3 months and one day I noticed " MY HANDS DON'T CLICK ANY MORE. HEY!!!!!!!

smoore

I've been taiking 1000mg of Glucosomine and 800mg of Chondroitan for several years. I broke my back in a car accident when I was young and it has always been stiff. When I stopped taking it for about three months I noticed the stiffness returned. I'm frugal but I belive this really works and is money well spent. Also, I've seen it have amazing effects on dogs and the vet community will attest to that.

I have a friend who has read and believes that MSM is better than Chondroitan but I've haven't tried it. This same freind had a doctor tell him that Glucosomine tablets were almost worthless and the only effective way to take it was in powdered form. Anyone have a take on that?

Steve

Richard Cranium

I just started taking the G/C/M "3-way" formula. I'm planning on really making an effort to "notice" anything. I'm a runner as well as a cyclist and don't have a specific joint problem. But I'm "testing" just to see if I perceive less "generalized stiffness" to my back or other joints in the mornings.

One thing for sure, Ibuprofren, can take away considerable muscle/joint type pains, so I doubt anyone taking Ibu can discrimminate between whether GSM or the pain killer is working.

I'll post my GSM effects after 30 days. Thanks for all tips and comments, I found the "2 for 1" deal at Walgreens to be the cheapest way to buy the stuff.