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  1. #1
    Senior Member SaiKaiTai's Avatar
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    There's a lot of steel out there

    If you go looking for it. Which I sort of have been kind of maybe.
    I did not know that Waterford was "Schwinn" (kind of like Heritage is Gibson for all you axe slingers out there). Nice looking bikes.

    Something that's caught my eye -and I know there are Jamis fans around here- is the Aurora Elite.
    Just so happens a small local shop (not mine) has one in my size. And it's an '08.

    There's also a shop near to that one (which my LBS has recommended before) that carries Bianchi, Raleigh, Soma, Waterford, and Gunnar. I'm not thrilled with Bianchi's chopice of components for their steel line and Raleigh's line just confuses me. There's something about buying a "Schwinn", even once-removed, that speaks to me. Old times, good times and happy memories.

    I might take the Giant out for a spin out that way on Saturday and try some out.
    I don't think I'm ready to buy but I *do* want to try.

    Feel a little -I don't know- dirty? for going to another shop when mine has been soooo good to me.
    But, hey.
    '13 Felt Z3 - '08 Jamis Aurora Elite - ('07 Giant OCR C2)

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    You would never regret getting a Waterford.

  3. #3
    His Brain is Gone! Tom Bombadil's Avatar
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    I'm loving my steel RANS so far.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L'Amour

    There are two types of road bikers: bikers who are faster than me, and me. Bruce Cameron - Denver Post

  4. #4
    Life is good RonH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiKaiTai View Post
    Something that's caught my eye -and I know there are Jamis fans around here- is the Aurora Elite.
    Just so happens a small local shop (not mine) has one in my size. And it's an '08.

    Feel a little -I don't know- dirty? for going to another shop when mine has been soooo good to me.
    Jamis. I love my Jamis Nova.

    If your shop is like mine, they won't mind if you buy from someone else since it's something they don't sell. Just bring the bike to your LBS for repairs, upgrades, tune-ups, and accessories.
    My bikes --> 2001 Litespeed Tuscany---2013 Cannondale CAAD 10 2 (5) "Racing Edition"

    Life is like a 10-speed bicycle. Most of us have gears we never use. ~ Charles Schultz

  5. #5
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by texraid View Post
    You would never regret getting a Waterford.
    or restoring an original Schwinn.
    Bob
    Dreaming of Summertime in NH!

    Visit my websites:
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  6. #6
    Senior Member NOS88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
    or restoring an original Schwinn.
    Pastorbobnlnh: Nice to see you post in the 50+ again. It's been some time since you've ventured into these woods. BTW, sweet looking restoration. I especially like the yellow cable housing.
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. - S. Wright

  7. #7
    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    Regulars on 50+ and C&V know how I feel about steel framesets.
    "Early to bed, early to rise. Work like hell, and advertise." -- George Stahlman
    Capo [dschaw'-poe]: 1959 Modell Campagnolo, S/N 40324; 1960 Sieger, S/N 42624
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    Bianchi: 1981 Campione d'Italia, S/N 1.M9914
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  8. #8
    rebmeM roineS JanMM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiKaiTai View Post
    I did not know that Waterford was "Schwinn" (kind of like Heritage is Gibson for all you axe slingers out there). Nice looking bikes.
    I think it would be more accurate to say that Waterford was "Paramount".

  9. #9
    Freewheel Medic pastorbobnlnh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JanMM View Post
    I think it would be more accurate to say that Waterford was "Paramount".
    A more accurate description would be Paramounts built from 1980-1993 (or so) became Waterford. Before that they were built primarily in Chicago (some, mostly chrome '70s models, were outsourced).

    A 1983 built in Waterford, WI



    A 1966 built in Chicago, IL

    Bob
    Dreaming of Summertime in NH!

    Visit my websites:
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  10. #10
    Around now and then DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pastorbobnlnh View Post
    A more accurate description would be Paramounts built from 1980-1993 (or so) became Waterford. Before that they were built primarily in Chicago (some, mostly chrome '70s models, were outsourced).

    A 1983 built in Waterford, WI

    Hi PB

    I think I recognize that white house corner. Am I correct?
    DnvrFox - still bicycling, swimming, walking and weight lifting at 74yo is participating a bit in BFN 50+.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Retro Grouch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    If your shop is like mine, they won't mind if you buy from someone else since it's something they don't sell. Just bring the bike to your LBS for repairs, upgrades, tune-ups, and accessories.
    Another alternative is to tell your LBS exactly what you want and ask if they can get you one. When I owned my shop I was usually able to find a way to make that work.

  12. #12
    Banned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiKaiTai View Post
    Feel a little -I don't know- dirty? for going to another shop when mine has been soooo good to me.
    But, hey.

    I used to live in a very small town, 8,000 or less for about 20 years. I developed the habit of shopping local businesses whenever possible. When we didn’t as a group it wasn’t long before that business closed and we “had” to go somewhere else that and the fact that the owners were our neighbors. When I moved to a larger town I discovered I have 3 LBS close to me. I have shopped all three and ended up buying a bike from the one that provides the best service and is within walking distance from my house. There are bigger bike stores in the next town over and the drive would only be 30 minutes or so but I still shop where I bought my bike. One thing they offered me was lifetime service for any new bike I bought so I now have two. If there were a bike I wanted my first choice would be to go to my local bike shop and see it they had it. If they didn’t have the bike I wanted I would see if they could order it. And before I tried to order something on-line I would take a printed sheet in to see of they could come close to the price. I will go to all this trouble because I want my LBS to stay within walking distance and I want that free lifetime servicing. I guess my loyalty is a bit self-serving.

  13. #13
    Senior Member SaiKaiTai's Avatar
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    Pastorbob - Good, good, good to see you back for as long as you care to stay.
    Those bikes are just some... STUNning... examples of the craft. Wow.
    The lines are just incredible. I like the look of the new Waterfords but I think they are out of my current range. Even the Gunnars are more than I'd like to spend. The Aurora looks great on paper but I don't know about the 32" wheels. Too much rubber slows you down. I'm still thinking of trying it out on Saturday. Wonder if they can throw some Zeros on it?
    '13 Felt Z3 - '08 Jamis Aurora Elite - ('07 Giant OCR C2)

  14. #14
    Senior Member Velo Fellow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiKaiTai View Post
    Too much rubber slows you down.
    Not in all circumstances. Try descending on poor road surfaces with fatter tires and you will go faster with greater grip and confidence. For that matter, with lower pressure, fatter tires you will go faster on flat poor surfaces because of less bounce and buzz. Acceleration may require a bit more effort, but it would be wrong to assume that 28/32,s will always hold you back.

  15. #15
    Senior Member SaiKaiTai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velo Fellow View Post
    Not in all circumstances. Try descending on poor road surfaces with fatter tires and you will go faster with greater grip and confidence. For that matter, with lower pressure, fatter tires you will go faster on flat poor surfaces because of less bounce and buzz. Acceleration may require a bit more effort, but it would be wrong to assume that 28/32,s will always hold you back.
    No real argument here...
    Even though our roads are better than "poor", they're not great but my 28s on the Giant (28" on CARBON?!?) are way, way more than grippy enough. It's pushing the 32s in the flats and up our many elevations here that I think of when I say "slow".
    All I have to do is compare the 28" on my OCR c2 vs the 32" on my Kaitai and I know that 32" are not for me. Maybe. Let's see what the Jamis feels like.
    '13 Felt Z3 - '08 Jamis Aurora Elite - ('07 Giant OCR C2)

  16. #16
    His Brain is Gone! Tom Bombadil's Avatar
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    The increased resistance of the 700x32s on the Kai-Tai could also be due to it having a tread design that doesn't roll as well and the wheels are probably heavier too, and the tires may be too.

    Not to say that 32s will roll just as well as 28s, but the differences aren't as great as many might think, if the selected 32s are a fair comparison.

    I'm running 38s on most of my bikes. Both of my bents have "near slicks" 38s that roll very nicely. My Trek and Bridgestone both have 38s. I have 32s on my Fuji flat-bar road bike.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L'Amour

    There are two types of road bikers: bikers who are faster than me, and me. Bruce Cameron - Denver Post

  17. #17
    Semper Fidelis
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    yea for waterford and serotta


    i have both and they are great riding bikes and well worth the money inmo
    "Advantages Must Be Pressed, Disadvantages Must Be Overcome"

  18. #18
    tcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by RonH View Post
    If your shop is like mine, they won't mind if you buy from someone else since it's something they don't sell. Just bring the bike to your LBS for repairs, upgrades, tune-ups, and accessories.
    I did business for many years with a local shop. I paid that little shop up to 2X of mail order prices for lots of stuff: upgraded components, gear, clothing.

    When I ran into that shop's owner years later, the only thing he could remember about my patronage was the one time I came in asking for service on a component he didn't sell!

    tcs
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

  19. #19
    tcs
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiKaiTai View Post
    The Aurora looks great on paper but I don't know about the 32" wheels.
    My goodness, where ever would one find tires for such large diameter rims? Perhaps: 32mm, as in ISO 32-622.

    Best,
    tcs

    PS - Bicycle tire width is just one of many factors in rolling resistance, and from every serious investigation I seen, not a very important one.
    "When man first set woman on two wheels with a pair of pedals, did he know, I wonder, that he had rent the veil of the harem in twain? A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Typewriter Girl, 1899.

    "Every so often a bird gets up and flies some place it's drawn to. I don't suppose it could tell you why, but it does it anyway." Ian Hibell, 1934-2008

  20. #20
    Senior Member bobbycorno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiKaiTai View Post
    If you go looking for it. Which I sort of have been kind of maybe.
    I did not know that Waterford was "Schwinn" (kind of like Heritage is Gibson for all you axe slingers out there). Nice looking bikes.

    ... There's something about buying a "Schwinn", even once-removed, that speaks to me....

    In my book, Waterfords and Gunnars are more Schwinn than Schwinns these days. Richard Schwinn owns Waterford, and AFAIK, there's no family association with the "Schwinn" bikes being sold these days. It's just a shame that Richard can't put his own name on the bikes his company builds, but that's business, I guess.

    SP
    ...with two blue Gunnars

  21. #21
    His Brain is Gone! Tom Bombadil's Avatar
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    Well there is the new Schwinn Paramount that is coming out soon. Handmade by Waterford for Schwinn.

    But I believe it is somewhere around $7000-$8000.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L'Amour

    There are two types of road bikers: bikers who are faster than me, and me. Bruce Cameron - Denver Post

  22. #22
    Around now and then DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
    Well there is the new Schwinn Paramount that is coming out soon. Handmade by Waterford for Schwinn.

    But I believe it is somewhere around $7000-$8000.
    Has Schwinn made up its mind what kind of company it is going to be, or is it all things to all people?

    When you can find them in the XMart of $150 for less, it takes a bit of the prestige away, IMHO.
    DnvrFox - still bicycling, swimming, walking and weight lifting at 74yo is participating a bit in BFN 50+.

  23. #23
    His Brain is Gone! Tom Bombadil's Avatar
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    Schwinn is Pacific Cycle. They market to diverse audiences. Schwinn doesn't really build the bikes at Wal-Mart, W-M simply licenses the Schwinn & Mongoose names to put onto bikes built for them in Asian plants. Pacific Cycle might have a little to do with the specs of those bikes, but not much. Those bikes do tend to be the better ones at W-M, having better part quality, including some Shimano parts. I doubt this arrangement will end anytime soon because I believe Pacific Cycle, which of all things is headquartered here in Madison, WI, is making good money off of the deal.

    They recently expanded the "Schwinn" line of products to include scooters, those little 50cc to 150cc jobbies seen all over college campuses. These are low-end scooters which undercut brands like Honda and Yamaha by several hundred dollars.

    Schwinn's LBS bikes are a very different story. Some of these are very serious bikes.

    Pacific Cycle also owns Cannondale.
    "Too often I would hear men boast of the miles covered that day, rarely of what they had seen." Louis L'Amour

    There are two types of road bikers: bikers who are faster than me, and me. Bruce Cameron - Denver Post

  24. #24
    Senior Member NOS88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
    Well there is the new Schwinn Paramount that is coming out soon. Handmade by Waterford for Schwinn.

    But I believe it is somewhere around $7000-$8000.
    I have a hard time understanding why someone would pay this when they can get a Tommasini hand built Tecno for less than half the price. http://www.ridetommasini.com/frames/tecno.html
    A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. - S. Wright

  25. #25
    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
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    Have been in cycling to remember when some of the "Names" used to be worthwhile owning. Schwinn along with several UK names like Raleigh and Dawes have downgraded themselves by going into the lower price market. But some of these names still make good bikes- They have just lost their way and as DnvrFox put it

    Has Schwinn made up its mind what kind of company it is going to be, or is it all things to all people?

    When you can find them in the XMart of $150 for less, it takes a bit of the prestige away
    .


    My LBS is still a Dawes dealer- and that is because the customers want the quality bikes that they still make. Raleigh still make some top end road bikes- but you rarely see them advertised and even rarer to see one on the road. Must be the same with a great many of the defunct bike manufacturers that have been taken over in the past few years.

    Steel is still around- but the only way to find out if the one you are thinking about is any good- is to get out and test ride them. Have to admit that the best bikes I have owned were steel. But that was a good few years ago. As to whether "Modern" steel will stand up to the current material (In the singular) is up for debate (Says I opening a can of worms). And as far as I am concerned- I am happy with C.F.- but If I only had to have one bike from my stable- It would be the Aluminium Boreas.
    How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


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