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OT: Cutting a CD in 50+ Language

Old 12-23-08, 07:44 PM
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OT: Cutting a CD in 50+ Language

OT: Cutting a CD in 50+ Language (I don't want to post this elsewhere, because I won't understand a word they say!)

My a cappella 9 member gospel singing group is exploring cutting a CD.

While the CD might be sold, it most likely will be given as either wanted or unwanted gifts to those we think ought to remember us fondly???

I have been exploring how a CD might be cut, and find there may be a range of quality levels (and related cost to us).

A fellow group records for two days, with each person and instrument having their own mike, and then spends time "mastering" the CD, putting all the tracks together, adjusting tone, volume and pitch and rhythm, etc. This, of course, is not cheap, and they do sell their CD's, although I don't think they sell a lot - (they are an excellent group).

I have heard of others simply recording the entire group and transcribing it to a CD. Simple but rather non-professional sounding.

I believe we can handle the copying of the CD's and the packaging and the labels and jewel case inserts ourselves, for the small quantity we will likely need.

I would appreciate anyone with more advanced knowledge (that wouldn't be hard) of making a CD to share their knowledge with me.

I see all sorts of ads on Craigslist for CD production, - i.e., $300 - but have NO basis for evaluating.

TIA

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Old 12-23-08, 08:04 PM
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GarageBand: Free multichannel recording software that comes on most consumer Macs.
Mics cost, but borrow if you can.

You can burn your own CD right out of Garage Band. You'd be amazed how good it can sound. Though pros scoff, some artists are actually using it to record.

Burn the CD out of GarageBand. Unless you're making a ton, burn 'em yourself, or have your fellow members burn a few each.

You really can do this for almost no money. You can also spend as much as you want.

You might want to find a hobbiest or semi-pro recordist through Craigslist and, again, not pend a fortune.

Have fun!
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Old 12-23-08, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by cccorlew
GarageBand: Free multichannel recording software that comes on most consumer Macs.
Mics cost, but borrow if you can.

You can burn your own CD right out of Garage Band. You'd be amazed how good it can sound. Though pros scoff, some artists are actually using it to record.

Burn the CD out of GarageBand. Unless you're making a ton, burn 'em yourself, or have your fellow members burn a few each.

You really can do this for almost no money. You can also spend as much as you want.

You might want to find a hobbiest or semi-pro recordist through Craigslist and, again, not pend a fortune.

Have fun!
I have four good quality mikes w/stands. etc. However, I guess one would need a mixing board of some sort, as I doubt many computers have four input jacks. Or am I missing something?
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Old 12-23-08, 08:22 PM
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You have found the 2 divergent recording techniques for non-pop music recording. However, if you have no experience doing this, you are guaranteed amateur results.

The multi-track method allows nearly unlimited ability to tweak every instrument and singer, and the expense of billable hours. Pretty much every pop recording is done this way. It can take months of work to fix everything up after the fact.

Anything that actually sounds good live can be recorded live to stereo for a CD. There is absolutely no reason for this to not sound professional if you have the right engineer. Much of the same equipment may be used, but everything must be done perfectly, live, direct to stereo. While this puts pressure on the engineer to get it right - right now, it's commonly done for classical recordings. Most proponents argue that recording live groups results in a better musical performance, whereas multi-tracking usually has musicians playing in a little room by themselves with headphones, listening to prerecorded material or click tracks. The trick is finding a decent engineer who works like this, and it should cost less than having someone work for weeks afterwards.

CD duplicating is not rocket science. For quantities roughly below 200, duplicators with use towers of multiple CD burning computer drives. An inkjet printer prints the design on each CD. Printed materials can be done in color Xerox. If you are real low budget, you can do this on home equipment.

For larger quantities, it pays to press the CDs as there is a one-time charge for a CD glass master. Then it also usually pays to have a printer do the inserts and the artwork on the CD is silkscreened. https://www.discmakers.com/ is the nation's gorilla for small batch CDs.
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Old 12-23-08, 08:25 PM
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Once you have a recording, you can put it up for sale at Amazon.com by logging in here...you wouldn't even have to produce the CD yourself.

https://www.createspace.com/
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Old 12-23-08, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespeedlouie
You have found the 2 divergent recording techniques for non-pop music recording. However, if you have no experience doing this, you are guaranteed amateur results.

.

Thanks so much for the info
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Old 12-23-08, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by DnvrFox
I have four good quality mikes w/stands. etc. However, I guess one would need a mixing board of some sort, as I doubt many computers have four input jacks. Or am I missing something?
Most computer recordists use a recording interface box that digitizes the microphones and sends each one to a separate track in the computer over the USB or Firewire computer port. The mixing is done on the computer, as in Garageband. If you mix all mikes to stereo in the analog domain with a mixer, then a similar interface is used to digitize the 2 channels and input them into the computer. What mics do you have?


There are many factors to consider. If you go the multitrack route, usually the recording is done in a dead room, and reverberation is added electronically. If you record the group performing "live", you need a good room, with acoustics that complements the style of music. Sometimes electronic reverb is added to this, too, but the original acoustics can't be taken out. You need good microphones, but also good mic preamplifiers and good analog-to-digital converters. Good examples of these are not cheap, although workable examples for many people can be affordable, in the hundreds of $ instead of thousands. You need to know how many microphones to use, and where to place them, which is not always obvious.

If you ask around from similar singing groups and listen to their recordings, you can likely find a few engineers who might fit your style and budget. Not unlike trying to find a good bike mechanic or fitter. If you want to give it hand yourself, it may be great fun and a learning experience, but I think it unlikely you'll get great results.
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Old 12-23-08, 09:06 PM
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Thanks again, and I have just become overwhelmed!!
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Old 12-23-08, 09:40 PM
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You're showing your generation...you CUT records but you BURN CD's.
__________________

Last edited by Monoborracho; 12-23-08 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 12-23-08, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Monoborracho
You're showing your generation...you CUT records but your BURN CD's.
Only if they are pornographic!
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Old 12-23-08, 09:56 PM
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Our church produced a CD earlier this year. Our music minister is a very talented song writer and we have many talented singers and musicians in our congregation. They found a recording studio that got behind it and donated a lot of time to the project so the price wasn't too bad.

As a sound technician in my earler life, I did a lot of recording work in the 70s and can tell you there is a lot of talent in good mixing which can make all the difference in the final product. My one suggestion is go for it. No matter which way you go, as long as you are willing to spend the required time the end result will be something you can be proud of.
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Old 12-23-08, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by CACycling
Our church produced a CD earlier this year. Our music minister is a very talented song writer and we have many talented singers and musicians in our congregation. They found a recording studio that got behind it and donated a lot of time to the project so the price wasn't too bad.

As a sound technician in my earler life, I did a lot of recording work in the 70s and can tell you there is a lot of talent in good mixing which can make all the difference in the final product. My one suggestion is go for it. No matter which way you go, as long as you are willing to spend the required time the end result will be something you can be proud of.
Thanks so much
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Old 12-23-08, 10:28 PM
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Typically, you would interview several engineers who did recordings you've heard and liked, and see who you get along with and fits your budget. It could be that they recommend a hybrid technique, such as giving everyone a separate mic, but recording directly to stereo and only editing as needed to get to CD. Or they might prefer to multitrack, but it usually costs much more and takes much more time. It could be at a studio or on location. You'll learn lots if this is your first project - ask as you go, most folks are glad to tell you what they are doing and why.
Sadly, many people with a computer and a few mics think they know all about recording all types of music, and they are almost always wrong. I would look for recordings you like and see who did them, even if you have to reject them for cost, perhaps they'll have other referrals. Also, try asking local classical groups or colleges about recordists you can interview. Acoustic music such as yours is a different matter than a punk grunge band.
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Old 12-23-08, 10:42 PM
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Thanks again.

Each of these responses is being forwarded to the members of our singing group. They are very helpful.

BTW, we are tremendously better in our singing than the live single mike recordings on our web site. They were recorded a couple of years ago, and we have improved!!
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Old 12-23-08, 11:42 PM
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The few recordings I've been part of were done by someone with a small studio or a mobile rig making a live take from the sound board mixed with ambient mics around the room at a live gig. I have done the kind of studio recording where you aren't there at the same time as the rest of the instruments and vocals. I hated it. Seemed soulless, although the results can sound very good.

I would bet that there are several small recording studios in your part of the world. Hopefully you can find one who can do a decent job for a reasonable fee. Maybe start by asking around at local music shops. Kind of like asking the guys at your LBS for good places to ride.
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Old 12-24-08, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by DnvrFox
Thanks again.

Each of these responses is being forwarded to the members of our singing group. They are very helpful.

BTW, we are tremendously better in our singing than the live single mike recordings on our web site. They were recorded a couple of years ago, and we have improved!!
I'm with bluesdawg on this one. Except I think the studio translates better than the live recording. Yes the live recording seems to work best for the group but from what the people listening have said the other method has a purer sound. A small studio or even a mobile studio isn't that bad of an expense and the sound quality is a lot better. Our world percussion group made a CD and if each person pretty much knows their part it doesn't take that long to get through a session. Plus you all don't have to be there at the same time. With us the Kit drummer, who was maybe the most professional laid down the first track and the hand drummers came in on another day. The Didgeridoo player was in the studio all by himself and when it came back it sounded better than we ever did in a garage and maybe better than we were live. That being said with a singing group Bluesdawg still may be right and everyone would do better together. I think there was a clip of one of our live performances or at least a rehearsal on youtube but I forgot where.
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Old 12-24-08, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Litespeedlouie
You have found the 2 divergent recording techniques for non-pop music recording. However, if you have no experience doing this, you are guaranteed amateur results.

The multi-track method allows nearly unlimited ability to tweak every instrument and singer, and the expense of billable hours. Pretty much every pop recording is done this way. It can take months of work to fix everything up after the fact.

Anything that actually sounds good live can be recorded live to stereo for a CD. There is absolutely no reason for this to not sound professional if you have the right engineer. Much of the same equipment may be used, but everything must be done perfectly, live, direct to stereo. While this puts pressure on the engineer to get it right - right now, it's commonly done for classical recordings. Most proponents argue that recording live groups results in a better musical performance, whereas multi-tracking usually has musicians playing in a little room by themselves with headphones, listening to prerecorded material or click tracks. The trick is finding a decent engineer who works like this, and it should cost less than having someone work for weeks afterwards.

CD duplicating is not rocket science. For quantities roughly below 200, duplicators with use towers of multiple CD burning computer drives. An inkjet printer prints the design on each CD. Printed materials can be done in color Xerox. If you are real low budget, you can do this on home equipment.

For larger quantities, it pays to press the CDs as there is a one-time charge for a CD glass master. Then it also usually pays to have a printer do the inserts and the artwork on the CD is silkscreened. https://www.discmakers.com/ is the nation's gorilla for small batch CDs.
Louie is right on target. I can fill in some of what the engineering is. Back when I lived in Denver I took a semester of recording engineering at Auraria.

Your mikes are probably directional or cardioid (heart-shaped sensitivity pattern). It will be simplest if you only use two. The key things I watch for (I didn't go in the business, but I've recorded my wife's high-school singers quite a bit) are to focus on the performers and get stereo differentiation. I like to place the mikes so the distance between them and the performers is a third to a fifth of the distance to any other sound sources. Examples of undesireable other sources include people working in the kitchen (when recording at home), audiences coughing, chatting, or otherwise not paying attention (when recording a high school concert). Another example is a conductor moving pages, huffing and puffing, and whispering instructions or even singing with the singers. You don't want that stuff to stand out.

Directional mikes are most sensitive on their centerlines, and for about 40 degrees to either side. This cone must be pointed at the performers. For stereo, put the two mikes very close to each other but pointed in directions that are 90 degrees apart. This will get you a distinct separation of stereo content. For even coverage of all your singers, arrange them on the stage so they're fairly evenly spaced from the mike cluster. You don't want any of them to stick out. For a recording session in a home or even better a church sanctuary or community room, this should work out pretty well. In live recording you are constrained in where the singers can be.

Take some time to set the recording levels so the CD does not distort on the musical peaks, and that it generates enough volume that people can listen to it in their cars. Allow some "headroom" for the excitement of a live performance - performers are usually louder on peaks when the audience is present and responsive. Turn down the volume when the applause starts -- it WILL distort.

CU Denver has a pretty good recording engineering program. It used to be run by Bill Porter, who engineered Elvis' hits and a lot of Roy Orbison's. I took his course. I don't know who runs it now, but they had a good baseline to follow.

Contact me if you want to discuss.

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Old 12-24-08, 10:34 AM
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Although I did mention recording at live concerts, my recommendation of live recording was for "live in-studio".
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Old 12-24-08, 10:35 AM
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From our very excellent church musical director, who is also chairman of the music department at our new local high school. He has heard us now for almost 3 years. For us, given who we are, this makes a lot of sense.

Thanks, everyone for all the ideas. I have learned a lot (as usual) from all of your input.

Hi Denver, I think that if you get a good sound person you can get an excellent recording as a group. There is a guy in Parker who has a very nice studio, and is pretty reasonable. His wife is the principal's secretary at the new middle school. You may want to give him a call. I plan on using him for my choir and orchestra audition cd's. He is a really nice guy,and could answer all of your questions.

https://www.Covestudios.com

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Old 12-24-08, 11:29 AM
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Your church music director may also have a lead, if the one he gave you doesn't work out, to a large church in your area that is active in producing Christian music recordings. There are many across the country who have invested in the equipment to produce good recordings in their buildings.

This sounds like a fun project.
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Old 12-24-08, 11:31 AM
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https://www.Covestudios.com
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Old 12-24-08, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespeedlouie
...
Anything that actually sounds good live can be recorded live to stereo for a CD. There is absolutely no reason for this to not sound professional if you have the right engineer. Much of the same equipment may be used, but everything must be done perfectly, live, direct to stereo. While this puts pressure on the engineer to get it right - right now, it's commonly done for classical recordings. Most proponents argue that recording live groups results in a better musical performance, whereas multi-tracking usually has musicians playing in a little room by themselves with headphones, listening to prerecorded material or click tracks. The trick is finding a decent engineer who works like this, and it should cost less than having someone work for weeks afterwards.

....
+1 ... some of the finest sounding recordings in classical music history were recorded with very few mikes and no mixing. A good sounding room is a good idea too.
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Old 12-24-08, 05:07 PM
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A response from a studio:

Hi Denver,

Thank you for the email. I also got your voice mail message. I would love to work with your group. I have done many CD projects and yours sounds wonderful. I would also agree with Kurt Stroman that the best way to record a 9 voice group would be to record everyone at the same time. It should be pretty straight forward once we get the mics in the right position and a sound that you all like.

For Studio time I charge $40 an hour. If you have a specific budget amount I can try to work with in it. Normally I would estimate a project like you have described as follows:

Number of songs?


From the hip, an estimate for you project would be somewhere between $500 and $1000 for the recording, mixing and mastering and providing you with a Gold Master CD.


If you are well rehearsed and can perform the songs in 2-3 takes I think we would be closer to the $500 mark.

If you want to have the CD duplicated in mass at a production house you will need to make sure you have all necessary copy write information. I looked over your web site and the music examples there. Most of them would fall in the public domain area so that is good.

Recording during the day is not a problem, I would like to discuss over the phone in more detail. Could we set up a time for Friday after the Christmas Holiday for a phone call?

Thanks
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Old 12-25-08, 10:24 AM
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A few years ago I bought a Tascam 788 for about $800, plus a CD drive/burner for another $200. It's a great machine. It records 8 tracks digitally. You can bounce tracks many times with no loss of quality. It has many, many virtual tracks (I can't remember how many) so you can really record unlimited numbers of tracks, then mix them down to eight, then master them to two. It has lots of effects, like reverb, compression, etc. I bought a couple of pretty good condenser mics and have used the whole setup to record my elementary school choir. We put out CD's every year. The kids get a cheap souvenir, and we make a buck or two off each one to go into our new equipment fund.

Now the same rig is going for much cheaper on Ebay and there are other similar setups, brand new, at any music store. Tascam now has a similar digital recorder, only with 24 tracks, built-in CD recorder, and updated capabilities for about the same price as my old 788.

On a whole other topic, there are also lots of choices for doing quality recordings with your PC, some not too expensive.

I'm just saying that, if you like technology and toys you might consider buying a little equipment and doing your own recording. These days it's not that hard. What I would have given to have had access to this stuff 30 years ago when I was a professional musician.
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Old 12-25-08, 10:41 AM
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"You can bounce tracks many times "

???

Thanks for the input
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