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  1. #1
    Erect member since 1953 cccorlew's Avatar
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    50+ training. Heartrate? Intervals? Help!

    Short:
    Non-athlete wants to improve the one event he does from 11:10 to 11:00.

    Long ramble:
    I've never been an athlete. Active, but not an athlete. That said, I did ride 7730 miles last year, including the Davis Double.

    I did one timed even last year, the Los Vaqueros Dam Time Trial. It's 3 miles, pretty much uphill, steep at the end.

    I managed to place 3rd in my age group, and 5th overall in a very very small field. My time was 11:10. I wanta hit 11:00.

    I bought Lance's Training book, and a heart rate book, but they are confusing. I know my max (181... maybe 183) but I'm not sure what I need to do to get just a bit faster.

    In addition to my regular rides
    Ride a certain heart rate for some specific time? (What? how long?)

    What about intervals? Just go flat out 1 minute, easy 1, repeat 10? Or 2 minutes of each? Or some other time flat out then wait till my heart rate drops to... something?

    I need some real specific stuff to do before mid April.
    I search the web, but end up confused.

    For completness, here's my blog entry on the TT.
    http://ccorlew.blogspot.com/2008/04/...ime-trial.html

    Here's what happened last April. Note my heart rate in running pretty high the whole way.
    (thanks for whatever help you can offer)

    WANTED: Not a darn thing. I've got it all. Life is good.
    Website at curtis.corlew.com Bicycle blog at ccorlew.blogspot.com

  2. #2
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Improving 10 seconds is easy or hard to do depending on the racing conditions. Denser colder air or wind can influence your result increasing your time. However, I suggest losing 5 pounds. If you produce the same effort and power the lower weight will produce an improved speed and accomplish your goal without any additional training / intervals and etc.

    If you want to reduce your time in a time trial hill climb without losing weight, about a month before the event, start doing practice climbs up the course or find a proxy. You will improve your time and I suspect by more than 10 seconds.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  3. #3
    Erect member since 1953 cccorlew's Avatar
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    Weight loss is indeed part of the plan.
    However, I was at my lowest weight since high school when I did it last year, and getting under that is gonna be... problematic.
    But it's something to work toward.
    WANTED: Not a darn thing. I've got it all. Life is good.
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  4. #4
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccorlew View Post
    Weight loss is indeed part of the plan.
    However, I was at my lowest weight since high school when I did it last year, and getting under that is gonna be... problematic.
    But it's something to work toward.
    I looked at your pic with DScott and it seemed to me you could lose a little more and that is why I suggest 5 pounds.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  5. #5
    Older I get, faster I was con's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
    I looked at your pic with DScott and it seemed to me you could lose a little more and that is why I suggest 5 pounds.
    That's going to leave a mark

  6. #6
    Banned. The Weak Link's Avatar
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    cccorlew, you have a very nice blog. Kudos.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    Your goal is to drop about 1.5% from last years time. If you didn't do any specific training other than your regular road rides I believe you can do even better. From your ride data it looks as if you rode a very smart race last year raising your HR in about 2 minutes to Z5 then keeping it in Z5a most of the time then hitting Z5b and possibly Z5c at the very end.

    The intervals you do should develop the power and speed needed for a 11 minute race. If this is the only event you wish to train for then the intervals you do in preperation should should not exceed 10 to 15 minutes in duration. In simple terms, you need to ride segments of the planned race at a faster pace than you will race. Riding 1 minute "all out" will produce benefits that will carry over and that workout should be scheduled later in your training. There is plenty of time to prepare for the April race.

    If you set one day a week aside to do intervals beating last year's time sould be easy. Early in the training the intervals should be longer with a recovery of about 1/2 the time of the interval or until your HR returns to Z1, or Z2 if you are soft peddaling. Some call those "cruise intervals" If the interval is 1 mile in length, or so, your heart rate will get to the zone 5. The intention is to get used to pushing yourself beyound what is comfortable due to the lactate acid buildup. The body will also adapt to remove the latacte acid from the system. On shorter HIT type intervals of 1 minute or less the interval will be over before your heart rate climbs. Those intervals should be done fast and with fluid power. Because of the effort put into the interval the rest between intervals should be a complete recovery of 4 to 5 minutes.

    A week or two before the big race you could also do segmentated intervals on the hill. Ride the first mile faster than race pace, rest for 5 minutes, do the center section, rest, then the third section.

    If the race course is near you home, doing intervals on the hill would be good. Riding up a hill also will put the rider in a position that is different than riding on a flat road.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
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    An investment in a power meter is something to consider also. Mine made a huge improvement in my riding and adds a whole geeky data thing which I like. There's a ton of info on power intervals on the net.

  9. #9
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    All good advice...as more advice pours in, I offer the following observation. One may need to "sneak" up on intervals to prevent injury. If someone says do something at 100% try 80% first and use a couple of weeks to increase to 100%. Deciding one day to commence interval work at high effort usually has unintended consequences. Everyone should note that the tough part of the TT is at the end where the grade is 10% for 1/2 of a mile. At that grade it is all about power to weight ratio i.e. more power less weight.

    Another thought is to redistribute your energy. You may have to start out a little easier to have more juice at the end. If you were gasping for air on the last half mile you were probably slowing down a lot a lost a lot of time.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  10. #10
    Erect member since 1953 cccorlew's Avatar
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    Thanks Allegheny Jet. I'm going out today and doing 1 mile zone 4, recover, repeat.
    How many? (Is one enough, is three too many?)

    That's going to leave a mark
    Yep. Ouch. I was down from about 193 to under 150 in that photo. I fear that may be as good as it gets. And I've put a few back on since then. But what the heck, I'll do what I can. I guess getting a five-pound lighter bike wouldn't be the same, huh? Or Maybe Hermes monitor is misadjusted and distorted my photo?

    Hermes: I think I'm ready to do this. I do ride every day. I did Diablo on New Years. I play tennis most days. It's not like I'm just getting off the couch. But going less than 100% on day one seems prudent. I'll try that.

    Thanks again, all!
    WANTED: Not a darn thing. I've got it all. Life is good.
    Website at curtis.corlew.com Bicycle blog at ccorlew.blogspot.com

  11. #11
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccorlew View Post
    . . . I've never been an athlete. Active, but not an athlete. That said, I did ride 7730 miles last year, including the Davis Double . . . [/IMG]
    Maybe you were not an athlete earlier in life but you are one now. Enjoy.
    George
    Laissez les bon temps rouler

  12. #12
    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    cccorlew,

    If you are riding the intervals in upper Z4 (155 HR) you could probably do 3 to 5 intervals depending on your base fitness. The intensity of those intervals should exceed your usual ride pace. Your workout is "early season" and should be taking you to the lactate threshold. Lung busters and leg burners will come later as you adapt to the training and the race nears. Hermes makes a good point about starting too hard and too soon into interval training, if you are new to the stresses being put on the system.

    Looking back at your race data from last year, 28-29 mph out of the box, WOW!!! That's doing a HIT 1 min max interval then backing down to race pace. I bet that hurt for a while!

    p.s. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn yesterday, but, I was a HS Track Coach

  13. #13
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cccorlew View Post
    Thanks Allegheny Jet. I'm going out today and doing 1 mile zone 4, recover, repeat.
    How many? (Is one enough, is three too many?)



    Yep. Ouch. I was down from about 193 to under 150 in that photo. I fear that may be as good as it gets. And I've put a few back on since then. But what the heck, I'll do what I can. I guess getting a five-pound lighter bike wouldn't be the same, huh? Or Maybe Hermes monitor is misadjusted and distorted my photo?

    Hermes: I think I'm ready to do this. I do ride every day. I did Diablo on New Years. I play tennis most days. It's not like I'm just getting off the couch. But going less than 100% on day one seems prudent. I'll try that.

    Thanks again, all!
    Hey, the camera adds ten pounds. BTW, you look great in the photo but that is not the point. You are looking for 10 seconds and the easiest way to get it is to shed weight - bike, body it does not make any difference in a hill climb. Good luck.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  14. #14
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    My idea of time trialing is to ride once a week on my single bike, full tilt for one hour.
    Do that 'til April and a 3 mile TT will be a piece of cake in 11.

  15. #15
    Erect member since 1953 cccorlew's Avatar
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    After a 10 mile warm up I tried the 1 mile three times at 89-92% MHR thing. It's a start.
    The legs feel fine, but my chest can tell I was sucking air.

    I picked a great morning to start. Dark and foggy and wet. But I discovered at 90% you don't get cold.

    I stupidly got on the scales too. Hermes suggested 5 pound loss is going to have to be more than 5....

    But I've started, and I've got until April.
    Unless it all gets old by Friday.
    WANTED: Not a darn thing. I've got it all. Life is good.
    Website at curtis.corlew.com Bicycle blog at ccorlew.blogspot.com

  16. #16
    Senior Member Richard Cranium's Avatar
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    I need some real specific stuff to do before mid April. I search the web, but end up confused.
    Specific advice is useless without a detailed training history and an accurate understanding of your current status. However advice based on principles is always applicable.

    Two principles come to mind, one is at there is an optimal ratio of sub-maximal to maximal work for each in individual's genetics and exercise goal. This means you need to find the most beneficial base-work to LT-work ratio and avoid over or under doing either.

    At each attempt at training to higher levels your work must be more and more controlled and added incrementally or you simply "miss your training window" and go stale or even destroy previous progress.

    In other words, use your brain, train - don't strain.......

  17. #17
    Let's do a Century jppe's Avatar
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    The simplest thing might be to just find a group of riders that are faster than you and ride with them. Stay with them as long as you possibly can. Repeat those rides a number of times. Over time you should be able to stay with them longer and you'll gain some speed in the process. It is a lot more forceful than trying to do intervals on our own......at least it's more effective for me.

  18. #18
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jppe View Post
    The simplest thing might be to just find a group of riders that are faster than you and ride with them. Stay with them as long as you possibly can. Repeat those rides a number of times. Over time you should be able to stay with them longer and you'll gain some speed in the process. It is a lot more forceful than trying to do intervals on our own......at least it's more effective for me.
    Hey, Curtis, jppe gave me some very useful time trial training advice a couple years ago, before my first solo TT. So pay attention when he posts.

    And that's how I've gotten fast(er), by riding with people faster than me, until I get dropped. Or until I drop them. It's very effective. The ego is a powerful training tool.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

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  19. #19
    Senior Member gpelpel's Avatar
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    I find it tough to do intervals on the road. So I use the trainer and Spinervals DVDs for this purpose. I own about a dozen of them with different objectives (endurance, power, climbing, recovery...). All of them offer sets of intervals with clear directions from a coach (Troy). Watching others do the set on the screen helps you match your cadence to theirs.

  20. #20
    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
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    My problem with training for such a short distance (that doesn't sound right) is that I would not be warm before I started training. It takes me 5 miles before I can let loose with and form of high energy usage. So I would have to go for say a twenty mile ride- do 5 miles and then do interval training for say 10 and then start cooling down for the next 5.
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  21. #21
    Older I get, faster I was con's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jppe View Post
    The simplest thing might be to just find a group of riders that are faster than you and ride with them. .
    Years ago when I raced, we called that, "ride in fast company"

    It works, till it kills ya

  22. #22
    www.ocrebels.com Rick@OCRR's Avatar
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    When I first read the OP, I thought you were trying to cut ten minutes off of your Davis Double time of 11 Hours 10 minutes. I was thinking, "Hey, 11 Hr. 10 min. for Davis is already an excellent time."

    Now this is where you tell me you really rode Davis in 10 Hr. 0 Min. . . .

    Also, FYI, I'm not going to the 3-Speed Tour this year, so I will be at the Davis Double. Hope to see you there.

    Rick / OCRR

  23. #23
    Don't mince words Red Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stapfam View Post
    My problem with training for such a short distance (that doesn't sound right) is that I would not be warm before I started training. It takes me 5 miles before I can let loose with and form of high energy usage. So I would have to go for say a twenty mile ride- do 5 miles and then do interval training for say 10 and then start cooling down for the next 5.
    The shorter the event, the longer the warm up. When I show up at the start of a time trial I'm pretty lathered up. For a road race I'm warm but not dripping perspiration. For a crit I spin for about 30 min. before the event to loosen up. On centuries, unless there are huge hills right off the bat, I need about 20 miles before I'm warmed up -- even if we ride to the start.
    When my feet hit the floor in the morning, Satan shudders and says, "Oh, *****, she's awake!"

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