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Old 03-15-09, 12:33 AM   #1
patentcad
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Pcad Arthritic knee update

1989- ACL reconstruction of right knee, lots of cartilage damage. I start cycling daily to rehab the knee, this starts a 20 year daily riding routine.

2008- knee starts getting stiff, swollen, go back to the knee surgeon, he says it's just getting arthritic. Since Advil and other NSAIDs hadn't helped, I go for Synvisc shots. They work great after I have the shots in Feb. 2008.

Sept. 2008 - knee gets cranky again. Dr. prescribes Meloxicam, a NSAID (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug). That works amazingly well, I take like one pill a week, keeps my knee loose until December 08.

Dec. 2008 - now I start taking the Meloxicam more frequently and it's less effective. I'm 51 years old now by the way.

By late February my knee is bad enough that I've made an appointment for more Synvisc injections. So here's the interesting part. I start reading the label on the Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements at the store. I notice the pricier ones have compounds that are not in the cheaper ones I've been using, mainly MSM. I buy a couple with MSM. I start taking them.

POOF, within 5 days my knee feels GREAT. This was about a month ago, My knee is still FINE. I cancel my appointment for the shots.

That's amazing to me. If it's a Placebo Effect, it's working. But I don't think so. I think it is the MSM.
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Old 03-15-09, 07:30 AM   #2
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Hope it continues to work for you. What is MSM?
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Old 03-15-09, 07:46 AM   #3
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Which "pricier" brand have you purchased that works better?

Did you ever try the "Bio-Freeze"?
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Old 03-15-09, 07:47 AM   #4
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Hope it continues to work for you. What is MSM?
http://www.1backpain.com/all_about_g...ne_and_msm.htm

MSM

MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) was isolated by Robert Herschler and Dr. Stanley Jacob of the University of Oregon Medical School in the early 80's. Their research showed that MSM is a natural sulfur compound found in all living things. It revealed that MSM one of the most prominent compounds in our bodies, just behind water and sodium. In his research, Dr. Jacob found that the sulfur in MSM, called Sulfonyl, is as safe and is as important as vitamin C in our diet. He observed that it is very different than the bad sulfurs like sulfite, often used to preserve certain foods. MSM is a member of the sulfur family but should never be confused with sulfa drugs, to which some people are allergic. MSM is a natural form of organic sulfur found in all living organisms, including human body fluids and tissues. MSM originates in the ocean and reaches the human food chain through rainfall. MSM is an odorless, water-soluble, white crystalline material that supplies a bio-available form of dietary sulfur. While MSM is normally found in many common foods, including raw milk, meat, fish and a variety of fruits, vegetables, and grains, it is normally lost from our food by heating, storage, processing, drying, cooking and preserving and even washing. MSM has been shown to add flexibility to cell walls while allowing fluids to pass through the tissue more easily. MSM enhances tissue pliability and encourages the repair of damaged skin(6) MSM levels in humans decline with age, resulting in symptoms of fatigue, tissue and organ malfunction, and increased susceptibility to disease(6). In a study of 24 people with athletic injuries, MSM was shown to reduce symptoms by nearly twice as much as those taking placebos, and was able to reduce the average needed visits to the chiropractor by approximately 60%(7). Another preliminary study compared 10 degenerative arthritis suffers taking MSM versus 6 who took a placebo. Results indicate a better than 80 percent control of pain within six weeks for those patients using MSM, while only two patients showed a minimal improvement (less than 20 percent) on the placebo(7). Dr. Lawrence, the medical doctor who headed up these studies, relates that he has treated more than one thousand patients with MSM and believes that it is safer than water. He noted that it appears that the body uses what it requires and flushes out the rest within 12 hours. According to a recent book by Lawrence, Jacob, and Zucker, entitled The Miracle of MSM, MSM can be a natural remedy for osteoarthritis, rheumatoid arthritis, Fibromyalgia, tendonitis and bursitis, muscular soreness and athletic injuries, carpal tunnel syndrome, post-traumatic inflammation and pain, heartburn and hyperacidity, headaches and back pain, and allergies. It was also noted that people taking MSM may notice other benefits, including softer skin, harder nails, thicker hair, and softening of scar tissue. An allotted time of 2 - 4 weeks may be needed before significant improvement is seen. It was demonstrated that patients at the Oregon Health Sciences University who have received oral MSM as part of their treatment show no toxic build-up, even after years of ingesting more than 2,000mg of MSM each day(8). MSM can be taken orally in pill or liquid form, and is also found in topical formulas. Topical creams with MSM may not offer much benefit, as the heating process may destroy the bio-availability of the MSM. With MSM's ability to allow fluids to pass through the tissue more easily, it works well with other natural compounds to allow for better absorption.
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Old 03-15-09, 08:50 AM   #5
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Hmmm. I'm thinking that you must commute to work by bicycle because, if you operated a car, you could be charged with "Driving While Repaired".
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Old 03-15-09, 09:10 AM   #6
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Good luck with the *new drug*. I tried MSM and it bothers my stomach so just the regular G&C for me.
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Old 03-15-09, 10:00 AM   #7
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http://www.1backpain.com/all_about_g...ne_and_msm.htm

MSM

MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) was isolated by Robert Herschler and Dr. Stanley Jacob of the University of Oregon Medical School in the early 80's.....
Thanks, Dnvr.
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Old 03-15-09, 12:51 PM   #8
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http://www.1backpain.com/all_about_g...ne_and_msm.htm

MSM

MSM (Methyl Sulfonyl Methane) was isolated by Robert Herschler and Dr. Stanley Jacob of the University of Oregon Medical School in the early 80's.

Picked up some "MSM" at the store and will give it a try. I'm allergic to shellfish and the G/C might make me ill. Perhaps the MSM will work.
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Old 03-15-09, 01:25 PM   #9
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The orthopedic surgeon I visited a few weeks ago reminded me that Glucosamine chondroitin is not recognized by the experts. I've been taking it for 10 years now and it works for me. The MSM however didn't seem to help so I stopped it. The same orthopede btw told me the arthritis in my ankles would keep getting worse. No joke, and I'll just keep getting older til I die
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Old 03-15-09, 01:36 PM   #10
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Here's a little further information about MSM:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...s/DSH/msm.html

Not trying to pick a fight, just attempting to balance the reporting.

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Old 03-15-09, 01:39 PM   #11
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Here's a little further information about MSM:

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...s/DSH/msm.html

Not trying to pick a fight, just attempting to balance the reporting.

Regards,
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A very good reason to use it would be if it helps the person with the problem.
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Old 03-15-09, 02:02 PM   #12
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I start reading the label on the Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements at the store. I notice the pricier ones have compounds that are not in the cheaper ones I've been using, mainly MSM.
Last summer I was doing a lot of crazy rides up to 130+ miles and 9000+ feet of climbing, until I developed a pain in the right knee that sent me to the doctor, who told me to knock off the big climbs and stick to short, flat rides for a awhile. While talking to a co-worker about it, he told me that his doctor had suggested he try Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplements with the caveat they were unproven. So I picked up this at Costco:

http://www.naturemade.com/productdat...p?productid=73

And it does contain MSM.
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Old 03-15-09, 04:34 PM   #13
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From wiki of MSM:

Osteoarthritis
: After several reports that MSM helped arthritis in animal models, a double-blind, placebo-controlled study suggested that 1500 mg per day MSM (alone or in combination with glucosamine sulfate) was helpful in relieving symptoms of knee osteoarthritis[8] Kim et al. then conducted a double-blind clinical trial of MSM for treatment of patients with osteoarthritis of the knee. Twenty-five patients took 6 g/day MSM and 25 patients took a placebo for 12 weeks. Ten patients did not complete the study, and intention to treat analysis was performed. Patients who took MSM had significantly reduced pain and improved physical functioning, without major adverse events. No evidence of a more general anti-inflammatory effect was found, as there were no significant changes in two measures of systemic inflammation: C-reactive protein level and erythrocyte sedimentation rate. The authors cautioned that this short pilot study did not address the long-term safety and usefulness of MSM, but suggested that physicians should consider its use for certain osteoarthritis patients, and that long-term studies should be conducted.
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Old 03-15-09, 07:40 PM   #14
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Congratulations and thanks for bringing this information to the group. I had heard of the various glucosamine/chondroitin supplements, but the MSM thing is new data for me. Fortunately, I'm free of arthur, joint pain etc. at this point, but I've got this filed in the memory bank just in case.
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Old 03-15-09, 08:15 PM   #15
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With what the daily doses of NSAIDS were doing to my kidneys and liver - I'll never touch another one again! The pain is better.

My knee ain't happy - but I sure am!
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Old 03-15-09, 08:38 PM   #16
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Another possibility is a difference is glucosamine formulations

A recent study of 40 "complementary and alternative medicines for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis and fibromyalgia" showed glucosamine HCl (hydrochloride) was ineffective in relieving osteoarthritis. However, the same study showed glucosamine sulphate *is* effective.

Read the study here: http://www.arc.org.uk/news/pressrele...reness/CAM.asp There's a link in the bottom of that page to the full report.
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Old 03-15-09, 09:02 PM   #17
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My daughter's horse takes glucosamine/chondroitin. Comes in a powder; nice lemony taste.

I usually grab a bit when I'm at the barn...the horse version is much cheaper than the human version (the horse takes his mixed with water and alfalfa pellets - I haven't tried it that way.)
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Old 03-15-09, 09:46 PM   #18
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Thanks or the info. My spouse has an arthritic knee and has had the Synvisc and all. If we could find a way to get her riding it would be really nice... so again, thanks.
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Old 03-15-09, 10:46 PM   #19
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I took MSM in the form of RegeniCARE for a while, when my knees were particularly troublesome.

I also made some ergonomic changes w/ bike and backed off distance for a while, so can't really say if the potion helped with relief, it was a combination, or ....
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Old 03-15-09, 11:23 PM   #20
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If the MSM stops workin, you might consider givin Apple Cide Vinegar a try.
Apple Cider Vinegar ( not any other kind), best if it is Organic and with 'The Mother'.
Do at least 1 ACV (apple cider vinegar) drink a day. 2x is better...
8 oz glass of water, add 2 tables spoons of ACV (I gotten to taking a fairly strong dose without measuring).
You can add sweeteners (Fruit, stevia are OK, but not Aspartame, to kill some of the acv taste. But one quickly gets accustomed to the taste.
I had a fairly serious achilles injury, which after a year of various treatments, nothing helped at all.
I started taking ACV daily and within 3 weeks I started to notice small improvement. Within 3 months the achilles was as 'normal' as the other side.
worked for me, and from what investigation shows, a lot of people
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Old 03-16-09, 05:40 AM   #21
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I'm taking Osteo Bi-Flex and Flex-a-Min. A bit pricier than the Shop-Rite brand, but they both have MSM and a couple of other compounds like Bosweila Root (God knows what that is).
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Old 03-16-09, 07:08 AM   #22
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Have you gotten any relief by icing after a ride?
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Old 03-16-09, 08:57 AM   #23
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I'm definitely interested learning about this.
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Old 03-16-09, 10:02 AM   #24
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I'm taking Osteo Bi-Flex and Flex-a-Min. A bit pricier than the Shop-Rite brand, but they both have MSM and a couple of other compounds like Bosweila Root (God knows what that is).
The Osteo Bi-Flex is what I'm taking and it has helped me a bunch. I just got off of it for a month and body started to lock up. I wonder if taking the
Flex-a-Min along with the Osteo Bi-Flex is like taking a double dose.
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Old 03-16-09, 01:49 PM   #25
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G&C has been my knees' savior for about 7 years now. I once tried G & MSM and my pain partially came back, so went back to G&C.

I've had good success with Walgreen G&C, buy it on their 2 for 1 specials. But am currently taking Osteo Bi-Flex with all three plus joint fluid. Found it on a big sale and bought 3 large bottles.

This is probably our 10th or 12th thread on this same issue, over the past 2.5 years. Not surprising it is a popular topic, in a forum on 50+ cycling. There are controlled medical studies that have shown statistically significant benefits for people who have the right matching conditions.
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