The B-17 Blues
08-19-09, 02:34 PM
#51
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I did read all of the posts. If you had, you'd understand the writer was not talking about ritual, not even in jest. I would call your attempt at something, I won't call it humor, just plain hyperbolic cr$p. He didn't say anything about what everyone must do, or anything about membership in the cult, and didn't even resort to soaking it until it just took too dang long, and that's only to one out of 5 of HIS saddles. Plus that's just what one person did, and you generalize it to a whole group of sincere cyclists.
08-19-09, 02:56 PM
#52
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Indeed, because that "upgrade" service is not simply a cut out, they also laminate another layer of leather under the Brooks' leather. They use one of two different thicknesses of leather, depending upon the weight of the rider.
08-19-09, 04:53 PM
#53
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my impression of owning/using a Brooks saddle over the last 30+ years is that, unlike other saddles on the market, a Brooks is meant to be broken in and used by a single owner - IOW, the saddle eventually conforms to a person's sit bones and that a rock-hard out-of-the-box Brooks is not really a 'problem,' but more of proper condition ready for conditioning
when (and if) i ever sell any of my bikes, i'll pull my Brooks saddle off and re-install the OEM saddle...
(i could never use someone else's worn saddle anyway - that grosses me out, kinda like dudes trading underwear around the camp site)
when (and if) i ever sell any of my bikes, i'll pull my Brooks saddle off and re-install the OEM saddle...
(i could never use someone else's worn saddle anyway - that grosses me out, kinda like dudes trading underwear around the camp site)
For a third group they take a while to fulfill their full potential but are worth it. This doesn't really mean they are bad during break-in... which some folks want to assume, it seems.
Last edited by billydonn; 08-19-09 at 04:59 PM.
08-19-09, 05:38 PM
#54
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No one I ride with nor do a see any Brooks on club rides. I do see a few on bikes.
I tried two versions of the SMP - "lighter" one and the most padded. The more padded one weighed about 330 gm and was okay for a short time. It did not knock my socks off and at that weight, not a value proposition for me.
I ride the "total" Fred Bontrager lux that came with my Madone on the tandem, road and TT bikes. On the track bike I use a Fizik Alliante. The most feared man on the earth, my urologist, suggested that I get a saddle with hole in it. So I am trying different ones with more gel plus hole.
I like the Fizik and with PI pro bib shorts can use it for 40 to 50 miles with no problem. However, with my Voler team kit, it is too hard for me - boney sit bones.
I think the seat to bar drop has a lot to do with which saddle will work as well as good old fashioned genetics that determine ones structure and tolerance to different saddles.
I tried two versions of the SMP - "lighter" one and the most padded. The more padded one weighed about 330 gm and was okay for a short time. It did not knock my socks off and at that weight, not a value proposition for me.
I ride the "total" Fred Bontrager lux that came with my Madone on the tandem, road and TT bikes. On the track bike I use a Fizik Alliante. The most feared man on the earth, my urologist, suggested that I get a saddle with hole in it. So I am trying different ones with more gel plus hole.
I like the Fizik and with PI pro bib shorts can use it for 40 to 50 miles with no problem. However, with my Voler team kit, it is too hard for me - boney sit bones.
I think the seat to bar drop has a lot to do with which saddle will work as well as good old fashioned genetics that determine ones structure and tolerance to different saddles.
08-19-09, 05:39 PM
#55
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I've said it in other threads on this subject: for me, the B-17 was like trying to ride on a baseball bat. I tried a B-17N Imperial which was an improvement but not as comfortable as my original Selle Anatomica. So I sent the B-17 to get the surgery, and added the laces when I got it back:
I don't remember exactly how long the turn around was, but less than two weeks from my post office to getting it back.
I've ridden it almost 750 miles including a metric, and an imperial century and several shorter rides in the 40 - 50 mile range.
Last edited by zoste; 08-19-09 at 05:43 PM.
08-19-09, 05:54 PM
#56
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Robert,
My only problem with that is that for some people, a little patience and breaking in does reward them with a very comfortable saddle. I understand that most of us are accustomed to instant gratification and that taking the time to work with something to make it function properly is not desirable, especially since there is no guarantee that it will work. It takes patience and some luck to reap the reward of Brooks bliss. Many will never attain it.
Personally, I would not endure 500 to 1000 miles of real discomfort before trying something else. There are many other choices. Fortunately, that was not necessary for me. I have never ridden on a Brooks saddle that was severely uncomfortable. All three of mine were at least pretty good from the first ride and were very good within a few hundred miles. Still hard as a rock, mind you, but very comfortable. After thousands of miles they just keep getting better and better. Some people have to work with them for a while to get comfortable. Others never get there no matter what they do and for how long. It is up to each individual to decide whether they want to try one and how much effort they are willing to put into trying to make it work.
My only problem with that is that for some people, a little patience and breaking in does reward them with a very comfortable saddle. I understand that most of us are accustomed to instant gratification and that taking the time to work with something to make it function properly is not desirable, especially since there is no guarantee that it will work. It takes patience and some luck to reap the reward of Brooks bliss. Many will never attain it.
Personally, I would not endure 500 to 1000 miles of real discomfort before trying something else. There are many other choices. Fortunately, that was not necessary for me. I have never ridden on a Brooks saddle that was severely uncomfortable. All three of mine were at least pretty good from the first ride and were very good within a few hundred miles. Still hard as a rock, mind you, but very comfortable. After thousands of miles they just keep getting better and better. Some people have to work with them for a while to get comfortable. Others never get there no matter what they do and for how long. It is up to each individual to decide whether they want to try one and how much effort they are willing to put into trying to make it work.
08-19-09, 05:57 PM
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I did read all of the posts. If you had, you'd understand the writer was not talking about ritual, not even in jest. I would call your attempt at something, I won't call it humor, just plain hyperbolic cr$p. He didn't say anything about what everyone must do, or anything about membership in the cult, and didn't even resort to soaking it until it just took too dang long, and that's only to one out of 5 of HIS saddles. Plus that's just what one person did, and you generalize it to a whole group of sincere cyclists.
08-19-09, 06:39 PM
#58
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I accept everything you say except having to work with a product after I buy it to make it acceptable. Not that is isn’t true but it isn’t necessary and is almost contradictory to what we in these forums tell new cyclists about fit and other equipment. If a helmet doesn’t fit we say get one that does before you walk out of the store. Who in here would suggest getting cycling shoes that are uncomfortable in hopes they will get better? The place where we disagree is on having to break in your saddle. There may have been a time when it was necessary because we didn’t have so many choices but today it is the manufacturer’s responsibility to provide a product right out of the box that meets the expectations of the consumer. There are simply too many other saddle manufacturers out there to have to correct the product after purchase. It is here we simply disagree and I respect you right to do so. It also flies in the face of the try before you by mantra so many of us tell people about. That is all I was saying.
08-19-09, 07:10 PM
#59
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I can't believe nobody has suggested he sell all his uprights and buy a recumbent!!!!!
I had a used hybrid for tooling around town that had an older all leather saddle. I noticed it was a bit more comfy than others I'd tried.
Baseball glvoes need breaking in and we put stuff on the leather of those. Apparently Brooks has directions and an "ointment" that let's the saddle break in to our individual body form. Some like them, some don't.
I had a used hybrid for tooling around town that had an older all leather saddle. I noticed it was a bit more comfy than others I'd tried.
Baseball glvoes need breaking in and we put stuff on the leather of those. Apparently Brooks has directions and an "ointment" that let's the saddle break in to our individual body form. Some like them, some don't.
08-19-09, 08:22 PM
#60
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Depends on the riding position of the bike its on. I have 3 road type bikes and one hybrid. The 3 road bikes run the gamut from a true classic 77 Schwinn Volare with pretty tight geometry and a Schwinn Continental and a 2006 Raleigh Cadent which is a more relaxed geometry frame. I have B-17's on all but the hybrid which is equipped with a WTB something or other. I like the WTB but when I ride that bike I feel like I'm stuck to the saddle. Not in a bad way but just different than the Brooks equipped bikes. I have my bikes set up with a more upright riding position because of various neck and back issues. This position is where the B-17 seems to feel the best. All 3 have been pretty comfy from the get go but the one I ride the most on the Volare is the best of the lots cause its getting conformed to my butt. I never had any more numbness or real discomfort issues with the Brooks than I did with any other saddle but they sure did feel hard the first few rides. Hey they aren't for everybody and thats why we have so many differrent saddles to choose from. Can't we all agree on that?
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08-19-09, 09:04 PM
#61
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I accept everything you say except having to work with a product after I buy it to make it acceptable. Not that is isn’t true but it isn’t necessary and is almost contradictory to what we in these forums tell new cyclists about fit and other equipment. If a helmet doesn’t fit we say get one that does before you walk out of the store. Who in here would suggest getting cycling shoes that are uncomfortable in hopes they will get better? The place where we disagree is on having to break in your saddle. There may have been a time when it was necessary because we didn’t have so many choices but today it is the manufacturer’s responsibility to provide a product right out of the box that meets the expectations of the consumer. There are simply too many other saddle manufacturers out there to have to correct the product after purchase. It is here we simply disagree and I respect you right to do so. It also flies in the face of the try before you by mantra so many of us tell people about. That is all I was saying.
Have you never had a saddle adjustment improve comfort?
08-19-09, 09:12 PM
#62
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There are simply too many quality saddles out there to have to spend time fixing something that should come from the factory ready to use. For those that can ride a brooks right out of the box, good for them and they have a legitimate excuse for suggesting them to someone else. I just don’t see why anyone should have to break in a saddle when they should be designing a saddle that is good from day one. That may just be me.
08-20-09, 12:06 AM
#63
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If it is comfortable however I can accept that it could get more comfortable after a while. But we have no reason to accept the discomfort some have expressed as part of the break in period of some leather saddles. If it is a simple adjustment that is one thing. If it has to be, “broken in” that is something else. Can you imagine someone selling you a pair of Bike shoes that hurt your feet and when you complained they said, they take a while to break in? That is doubly true if there are other shoes that don’t hurt your feet.
I am not attacking Brooks I am saying they are simply another saddle that doesn’t work for everyone. And no amount of special treatment will change that for people that don’t have a Brooks bottom.
08-20-09, 06:12 AM
#64
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Some of the finer things in life will be forever lost to those who demand instant gratification.
08-20-09, 06:52 AM
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If it is comfortable however I can accept that it could get more comfortable after a while. But we have no reason to accept the discomfort some have expressed as part of the break in period of some leather saddles. If it is a simple adjustment that is one thing. If it has to be, “broken in” that is something else. Can you imagine someone selling you a pair of Bike shoes that hurt your feet and when you complained they said, they take a while to break in? That is doubly true if there are other shoes that don’t hurt your feet.
I am not attacking Brooks I am saying they are simply another saddle that doesn’t work for everyone. And no amount of special treatment will change that for people that don’t have a Brooks bottom.
I am not attacking Brooks I am saying they are simply another saddle that doesn’t work for everyone. And no amount of special treatment will change that for people that don’t have a Brooks bottom.
Mine have all felt OK out-of-the-box and then improved significantly during the first 100 miles of use.
If that wasn't my experience I'd definitely be looking for something else before I resorted to any of the extreme measures that I've seen advocated.
08-20-09, 07:00 AM
#66
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While this is absolutely true (as well as being something that my mother drummed into me from infancy through grad school), I am firmly of the belief that a saddle shouldn't cause pain and discomfort for 500 or 1000 miles before it becomes bearable. Put me in the "Life is too short to tolerate a painful saddle" camp. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and I don't find crotch pain and numbness to be fun.
08-20-09, 07:02 AM
#67
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Hey! I'm a Brooks lover and I agree completely.
Mine have all felt OK out-of-the-box and then improved significantly during the first 100 miles of use.
If that wasn't my experience I'd definitely be looking for something else before I resorted to any of the extreme measures that I've seen advocated.
Mine have all felt OK out-of-the-box and then improved significantly during the first 100 miles of use.
If that wasn't my experience I'd definitely be looking for something else before I resorted to any of the extreme measures that I've seen advocated.
08-20-09, 08:53 AM
#68
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I went for a Brooks B-17 as well, after trying different positions, my comfort zone ended up being with the nose slightly up, and turned slightly to the right. The B-17 is still on the hard side, and I can really feel my sit bones, but being slicker than ice, the friction rubbing in the groin area is far less.
08-20-09, 09:58 AM
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Anybody that is not experiencing dream-like comfort whilst riding on a B-17 is not doing it right.
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08-20-09, 10:15 AM
#70
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08-20-09, 10:22 AM
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doesn't that seem to be the level of discourse though? they work for me, and if they don't for you BFD, get a saddle that does makes a lot more sense to me.
08-20-09, 10:28 AM
#72
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While this is absolutely true (as well as being something that my mother drummed into me from infancy through grad school), I am firmly of the belief that a saddle shouldn't cause pain and discomfort for 500 or 1000 miles before it becomes bearable. Put me in the "Life is too short to tolerate a painful saddle" camp. This hobby is supposed to be fun, and I don't find crotch pain and numbness to be fun.
08-20-09, 10:33 AM
#73
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Congrats to all the posters in this thread who managed the trick of being testy but not foul.
08-20-09, 01:52 PM
#74
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As I have previously posted, I am one of the few that has put a Brooks on a Madone. The weight didn't bother me and I have always (since the 70s) loved the look, although this is the first I have owned. I bought the B17N because I wanted something with a more roadie feel than the B17. It wasn't heaven out of the box, but it also wasn't hell. I proofided it, leveled it and began riding various lengths between 20 and 50. The first three hundred miles it felt pretty decent and seemed to be getting better each ride with a little tweaking of the height to try to match the height of the bontrager it replaced (which incidentally I like). I vividly recall one moment a couple of weeks ago about 30 miles in where I thought I had it made; it felt great.
Then, this past Sunday about halfway through a 40 mile ride, nirvana didn't strike; it turned awful
and I had to stand up constantly just to make it back home. On a hunch, I pulled the level out and sure enough, the nose had slid down quite a bit. I tweaked the nose up a bit past level and am looking to get out tonight. I also put some Rawlings glovinator (lanolin) on it to try to speed the process after reading Sheldon Brown's site. This project has taken on a bit more importance as I am riding a century on the 5th.
I am cautiously optimistic.
Then, this past Sunday about halfway through a 40 mile ride, nirvana didn't strike; it turned awful
and I had to stand up constantly just to make it back home. On a hunch, I pulled the level out and sure enough, the nose had slid down quite a bit. I tweaked the nose up a bit past level and am looking to get out tonight. I also put some Rawlings glovinator (lanolin) on it to try to speed the process after reading Sheldon Brown's site. This project has taken on a bit more importance as I am riding a century on the 5th. I am cautiously optimistic.
08-20-09, 03:00 PM
#75
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MM: The upgrade is really worth paying the 50 bucks. There is the fact that they add the laminate as Mr. Bombadil states, but also MCM has a patent on the shape of the slot (yes they actually patented the slot - go figure - try googling Patent 7,341,308). Plus you don't have to worry about how handy you are (I don't think that a dremel would be the best tool for the job anyway - likely to tear and burn the leather).
I've said it in other threads on this subject: for me, the B-17 was like trying to ride on a baseball bat. I tried a B-17N Imperial which was an improvement but not as comfortable as my original Selle Anatomica. So I sent the B-17 to get the surgery, and added the laces when I got it back:
I don't remember exactly how long the turn around was, but less than two weeks from my post office to getting it back.
I've ridden it almost 750 miles including a metric, and an imperial century and several shorter rides in the 40 - 50 mile range.
I've said it in other threads on this subject: for me, the B-17 was like trying to ride on a baseball bat. I tried a B-17N Imperial which was an improvement but not as comfortable as my original Selle Anatomica. So I sent the B-17 to get the surgery, and added the laces when I got it back:
I don't remember exactly how long the turn around was, but less than two weeks from my post office to getting it back.
I've ridden it almost 750 miles including a metric, and an imperial century and several shorter rides in the 40 - 50 mile range.
Thanks,
Steve