Riverside_Guy

When you guys use the term "pace line" do you mean everyone lined up one directly behind the other?

Even as a sort of noob I'd never do that, I'll always offset myself. Doesn't totally limit hitting the front guy, but sure lessens the chances of that happening.

will dehne

You are correct. The most VC correct cyclist uses a California stop including me.
I have had 2 close calls with that recently. Such a rolling stop relies on hearing the car coming. That works with cars 100%. I had 2 situations where Cyclist were coming. Dark clothes against green bushes background. I did not see them. One time a car came very slowly, I could not hear it and hit it almost.
Therefore I think California stops are dangerous but most of us do it.
Biking against traffic seems to me more dangerous especially if another Cyclist is going with the traffic on the other side. Imagine the motorist going through the middle of that.
I will look at S&A sub forum. I was not aware of it.

will dehne

There is a problem with offset also. You may wind up with some overlap if you do it all day long with strong wind. In that case it is dangerous because the Cyclist in front may make an evasive maneuver for some debris or such. I had a recent accident because of that.
Best pace line is behind each other with some distance. More distance is better but of course you give up some effect of drafting.
Overlap pace line is often done to fight strong wind from side and front. We had a day with driving rain for 160 miles. The stronger Cyclists pulled us poor souls.

The Smokester

+1

When this happens, I slow down and/or pull over (when it is safe for those behind me). I just don't tolerate being put in this position by another rider. There is no argument...I just won't ride that way and I will slow or stop until the problem goes away.

Last weekend I rode with the the fast group and a new rider was drafting near the front but swerving back and forth...Really squirrelly. Everyone behind him backed way off. Course, he couldn't see the effect he was having and was totally clueless. Someone finally took him aside and explained the rules. He actually appreciated the advice...Not like the idiot who apparently knows everything described by the OP.

I really believe in following the VC as the safest way to bicycle. Take the lane when you need it, ride in a predictable way and don't let anyone else put you in an unsafe position.

will dehne

Stapfam,
I do not want to seem a hypocrite. I do bike double file on a straight stretch country road. I expect a car from behind to see us and go around or let us know they are coming.
My complaint in the original post is about the blind LH curve. IMHO that should automatically mean go single file. I am trying here to raise awareness that many cyclist are not automatically go single file in dangerous situations.
Prior to this thread I was not sure what the Law says.
Hopefully this thread adds just a little awareness to those who in principle are law abiding but did not know that (like me).
There are some who in principle flaunt the law. Those folks worry me because I fear they do not know what they are doing.

MGtrack

Stupid question alert What is "VC biking" I'm sure it's something about defensive or something like that and not VietCong.

I'm serious, don't know about this.

will dehne

Vehicular Cycling.
That means that Cyclist have to behave just like cars. Stop at lights, stop signs, bike on the right side, go in the proper lanes for turns, observe right of way rules.
Most of us bend the rules a bit because Cyclist are vulnerable and not likely to kill someone. VC rules are written because cars can and do kill.
The problem with not cycling VC comes from unexpected traffic situation. A car driver may look for traffic coming from the right traffic lane and not from the left.
It really is a problem around blind curves or at dusk. We should not expect car drivers to look all over for crazy cyclist.
Not to mention that many of us drive on automatic pilot hopefully not texting or using the phone or talking to other passengers.

stapfam

Imagine a road 20ft wide with 10ft hedges and curve after curve after curve- very few straight bits and you just don't hear a car whether it is coming from front or behind.

Our backroads and I reckon there are more cyclists out on them on a Sunday than cars. Whether people get lulled into a false sense of security - I don't know- but unless you ride or drive sensibly- you are an accident waiting to happen.

Artmo 

Will - I've noticed on a number of occasions, while riding MS 150s and with my local groups that a few people have the propensity to ride left of the center line. It's weird, but they continue to do it even if you draw it to their attention. Fortunately this is usually at low speed when they are chatting, but I do see a few who ride outside the designated bike lane for no apparent reason. We can't all be perfect!
As for pacelines, I only ride with people I feel confident with and have experience of their riding abilities and discipline. We used to have a reminder session before each ride on what to do and what not to do in a paceline, but that seems to have been neglected. I try to do this if we have a new rider and if they have never ridden in a line, we ask them to stay at the back and watch how things work.
A little while ago we had a strong rider join us who said he knew paceline riding but then proceeded to use his aerobars in the midst of the line. Others muttered about this, but no-one said anything until one evening he was in front of me in the line and I politely told him it was a no-no. No harm done and no offence taken.
Another point on pacelines, we try to limit the line to 6 riders, so we may have three groups. This minimizes the time during the rotation that the changeover rider is out in traffic.
Regarding the comment by someone about A and B groups, our experience has been the opposite. We ride at 18-20mph in the B group. There is another group which rides in the 20-22mph range, but they have had several serious accidents due to carelessness in the past couple of years. I have ridden with them, but soon realised they were an accident waiting to happen.

John E

I dislike large group rides and tight peletons. I ride solo or with a smaller group which does not mind getting spread out a bit. I am extremely comfortable with one of our ride leaders, but the other sometimes does things, such as coming up on the right side of right-turning cars, which go completely against my ingrained practice.

BluesDawg

Really? I always thought it stood for Vehicular Cycling. I hope I'm right. I don't like being "correct".

will dehne

Thank you Artmo for the measured response. I am not very adverse to cycling side by side as you may remember. I get upset if the bikers take up all of the road and there is a blind curve ahead or behind.
I like to live a little longer.
This thread MAY have raised consciousness to this perhaps a little in some cyclist.
If so, it was worth it.

will dehne

You may be correct after all. I am relying on my memory banks here which have shown to be faulty at times.
--------------
Upps, I Googled it and you are right and correct.

will dehne

That sounds Scary.
The special issue we have here is that we have relatively few Cyclist on our roads as compared to Europa. That means that our car drivers get the shock of the day if some jerk comes at them in their lane.

BikeWNC

I'm very wary on large group event rides. There are too many inexperienced cyclists on those type rides and more often than not someone goes down. So I usually off and hang a few meters of the back. Sure it costs me some extra effort but I'll trade that for safety any day. So if I can't be right on the front I hang off the back. But I also get to ride with some former pro riders. They like to ride with their elbow touching mine as we ride side by side. At first I was near panic being so close but now I trust them and I guess they trust me so there is some comfort in knowing where the other rider is. Both those guys have way more 1000 mile weeks on the bike than I have months so they are rock solid and give me the confidence to ride like that. But put me in a chaotic group of weekend warriors and I'm out of there.

Road Fan

The only rule I know of is to ride as close to the right as practicable - not an arbitrary distance of 3 feet or any other number. I'd be amazed if it is different in Illinois; this IS the written law in Michigan, and it was in Illinois last time I looked. It's a RECOMMENDATION to allow a clearance to parked cars when they're present, but I don't think it's written in the law.