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Thread: Tubeless

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    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Tubeless

    Did a search and didn't find much, who's using tubeless tires. I'm going to give them a try as soon as the weather clears up. Hutchinson Fusion's mounted on Dura Ace wheels. No sence in having tubeless compatible wheels without tubeless tires. Hopefully the rides as sweet as my 25mm Michelins.

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    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
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    Never thought about tubeless on road bikes but they are still uncommon on MTB's. Big problem is that fact that once a tubeless tyre gets punctured you have to repair it. How do you repair it? Put a tube in it.

    My problem with road tyres would be the lack of tyres suitable for use in the wheels. I like a particular tyre and that is not made in tubless.
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    Senior Member kr32's Avatar
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    http://www.notubes.com/movie_road.php

    Looks interesting, please report back when you have them installed and some miles on them.

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    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Repair it with sealer, or patch like a car tire. Mtn. bikers here love tubeless.

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    I've been using tube-type tires tubeless on my mountain bike for about 4 years. I suspect that Stan's fluid is the best sealant option for road tires as it is for mountain bike tires, but don't know about that high pressure. I run 24 to 28 psi depending on the trail.

    It might be worth a call to check on the fluid. http://www.notubes.com/product_info....5796f44d8a61a2


    He claims it will seal a 1/4" hole. It would not seal a 1/8' hole a few years back, but I may have been low on fluid. Plus at the time I didn't know the trick of poking a small piece of cloth into the hole to help the sealing. If the fluid works at high pressure, I would imagine rubber plug like uses on auto tires might work for a big hole.

    However, with Stans, you never fix tires as the sealant seals all the more typical punctures. That one exception was the only flat I've ever had with Stan's in four years. I do something like 1800 miles of trails/year. It's so nice not to have to replace or patch a tube on the trail.

    Al

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    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stapfam View Post
    Never thought about tubeless on road bikes but they are still uncommon on MTB's. Big problem is that fact that once a tubeless tyre gets punctured you have to repair it. How do you repair it? Put a tube in it.

    My problem with road tyres would be the lack of tyres suitable for use in the wheels. I like a particular tyre and that is not made in tubless.
    You put a tube in it, as an emergency repair, the tire can be repaired, much the same way as a tube is, you glue a patch to the INSIDE of the tire. Early tubeless tires in automobiles were dealt with the same way, you put in a tube to repair it, until you could get to a shop for a proper repair. What is currently up for debate is whether the extra cost for a tubeless tire is worth it. In Mountain biking, where you may run a lower tire pressure for better off road performance, it's handy because of fewer pinch flats. Over time, you will find more and more rims being made tubeless compatible, and better selections of tubeless tires, and less of a price premium, which will lead to a general adoption of tubeless tires. I suspect that most bicycles will have tubeless tires, 40 years hence, a few cheap Wallyworld bikes will be the only ones that still have tubed tires. Tubes will still be available though, as an emergency flat repair, although a cartridge that contains a sealant, and gas like CO2 may be another option.

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    Senior Member Allegheny Jet's Avatar
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    I'm running tubless Continental Sprints with my Williams 55 CF wheelset for racing. I also have Serveizo Course from Yellow Jersey on my vintage Raleigh with Mavic Red label wheels.
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    feros ferio John E's Avatar
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    I guess I don't see the benefit of tubeless tires. I still seek the Holy Grail of a high-performance, lightweight airless tire -- several companies have tried, but no one has succeeded yet.
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    Senior Member big john's Avatar
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    A couple friends use tubeless road tires. One just for certain fast rides and he seems to like them. The other guy has used them on remote rides in the mountains and had lots of flats and always has a lot of trouble fixing them on the road. It could be his incompetence, but it seems like a lot more trouble than it's worth.

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    Getting ready to install a set of tubeless so I did a bit of research on this subject.

    The Stan's site and vid implies that you can install a tubeless road tire on a regular clincher rim with their kit? I am not really sure about that, maybe some one can chime in.

    Tire availability and choices are improving and cost with the cost of a tube is about equal right now. If you are set on a certain tire they may never make it in a tubeless version.

    Ride quality and more efficient over a regular clincher & tube are the claimed benefits. The loss of energy from the friction between the tube and tire is where the supposed gain is found. Kind of think that if you need ceramic bearings you are the type of person who would go for the energy gain from this or maybe you are riding in the TdF. Myself, better ride quality is my goal.

    Like the concept but it is going to be awhile before you see this on a $1000 bike at your LBS.

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    I can't believe that a tubeless road tire would be more comfortable or have any practical (as opposed to theoretical) advantage other than puncture sealing with a fluid like Stan's if it works at high pressure. But, my experience is strictly on ATBs.

    I do know that mounting/dismounting any tire on a "designed for tubeless tires" rim is a real pain at least for 26 inchers. For ATB's the tubeless tires are heavier because they are thicker. Thicker tires are lossier and stiffer tires and eat up more energy. More energy than a thin tire with a tube? I'd have to see the numbers to believe there's a practical difference.

    It's worth experimenting to check it out. I do that a lot. You never know.

    Al

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    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John E View Post
    I guess I don't see the benefit of tubeless tires. I still seek the Holy Grail of a high-performance, lightweight airless tire -- several companies have tried, but no one has succeeded yet.
    Airless tires have been in development for over 100 years, I doubt that they will ever get it usable. Probably the biggest reason why tubeless will take over the bicycle industry, in the wheel factory, they will not need a guy to put in the tubes, which will save 10 cents per wheel or 20 cents per bicycle. That doesn't sound like much, until you get a factory in China making 5 million bicycles per year, now that 20 cents turns into $1,000,000 saved.

    The demand at the manufacturing level will mean that tire makers will make many of the standard grade tires in tubed and tubeless versions, tubed for older bicycles and tubeless for newer bicycles. Rims will go through the same process, bicycle manufacturers will demand tubeless versions. Rim manufacturers realizing that demand, and in order to keep the number of SKU's from doubling inventory, will offer more and more models as tubeless only. If your buying new wheels, or replacing a rim then your going to have tubeless ones, by default.

    Lets forget the enthusiast for a minute, we are actually a much smaller part of the total bicycle market, then we would like to think. Joe Sixpack who just wants a bicycle for a little exercise, and buys a new one will get tubeless tires, when those tires need replacing he will get tubeless again. Not because he wants to, but because that's what the bike shop installs, because the tubeless tire shaves 2 minutes off the replacement time, no need to install a tube.

    Now back to us, while there you may not be see a huge benefit to a tubeless tire, if the cost is the same as a tire and tube, and you have tubeless compatible rims, why would you not buy and install tubeless tires, if the tires you want come in tubeless. I expect more and more tires and rims to come in tubeless in the next few years.

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    I guess I don't see any advantage to running tubeless tires.

    Do you put the sealant into the tire and run with it in there all the time like slime? Can it foul your pump?
    If not, carrying a tube with me seems a lot easier than carrying a tire repair kit or can of sealant.

    What about mounting tubeless tires? Are they too stiff for my arthritic hands? How does one form a seal on a tubeles bicycle tire? Can it be easily done out on the road if I'm running low and loose my seal at the bead for instance? How difficult is it to replace those small valve stems if one starts to leak?

    Maybe these are all non-issues. I just don't know......

  14. #14
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Got em mounted and ready to go.

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    Senior member Dan Burkhart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranky old dude View Post
    I guess I don't see any advantage to running tubeless tires.

    Do you put the sealant into the tire and run with it in there all the time like slime? Can it foul your pump?
    If not, carrying a tube with me seems a lot easier than carrying a tire repair kit or can of sealant.

    What about mounting tubeless tires? Are they too stiff for my arthritic hands? How does one form a seal on a tubeles bicycle tire? Can it be easily done out on the road if I'm running low and loose my seal at the bead for instance? How difficult is it to replace those small valve stems if one starts to leak?

    Maybe these are all non-issues. I just don't know......
    Forming a seal is no problem.
    (Don't try this at home kids.)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEdOWEFALdA&NR=1
    We used to do this all the time with heavy truck tires when they first went tubeless.

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    Grandpa with spunk Randy Bosma's Avatar
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    Anybody have experience with http://www.tufotires.com/? The idea seems interesting.
    I've not had problems with the wheels/tubes/tires that came as OE on my Trek 7.3, so I'm not feeling a need to drop the cash on a pair of these.
    Last edited by Randy Bosma; 04-08-10 at 07:53 PM. Reason: composition
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    Senior Member Billy Bones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranky old dude View Post
    . . .
    Do you put the sealant into the tire and run with it in there all the time like slime?
    Yes, with periodic top-ups about every six months else it dries out and is not there when you need it.

    QUOTE=cranky old dude;10618681]. . .
    Can it foul your pump? . . . If not, carrying a tube with me seems a lot easier than carrying a tire repair kit or can of sealant.
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, you spin the valve to the top and 'burp' it [as usual] prior to adding air. Yes, tubes are best for on-the-road repairs. In addition, you need a way to set the bead. . .usually high-volume air pump or CO2. . .tubes are best IF the goo fails to fill the puncture.

    QUOTE=cranky old dude;10618681]. . .
    Are they too stiff for my arthritic hands?
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes. . .quite!!! I [literally] feel your pain. A small tube of KY is now part of my kit. . .remarkable stuff! Also, breaking a bead that has been 'glued' to the rim can be a problem for our hands. [Also, my tubeless 'kit' also includes a small pile of paper towels to wipe away excess goo prior to putting in a temporary tube.]

    QUOTE=cranky old dude;10618681]. . .
    How does one form a seal on a tubeles bicycle tire? . . . Can it be easily done out on the road if I'm running low and loose my seal at the bead for instance?
    [/QUOTE]

    No, it's a cast-iron b****. See 'setting the bead' above.

    QUOTE=cranky old dude;10618681]. . .
    How difficult is it to replace those small valve stems if one starts to leak?
    [/QUOTE]

    Easy. . .they're, of course, separate parts and slip in and out with tight friction. . .see 'arthritis' above.

    I gotta' say, I'm not sold on 'em, but am more at ease every day. IMHO, they're only worth the considerable hassle if they reduce on-the-road flats. My personal doctrine is to fix on-the-road flats with a tube and go back to tubeless at home.
    AUDENTIS FORTUNA IUUAT
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    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Tires are a bit stiff when mounted new, and wore my thumbs out. Getting these to seat was a real pita, had to walk away a few times. Finally after some thought, I wiped away most of the soapy water, and remounted, finishing at the valve stem. Sucess. Today I will ride, @ 100psi. Hutchinson sealant in my pocket, not in my tires. Is this a good idea, I don't know. Tires 'look' great, especially after little sharpie work, blacking out all the advertisements on the sidewalls. Now they need to perform. If they ride better than Michelin 25's I'll be a happy camper. I do not get many flats, thats the least of my concerns. These tires have run flat capabilities.

  19. #19
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Went for a 40 mile ride today. Started out with 100psi. Ride was so so , let a bit of air out, a little better. Let some more air out as I got closer to home, ride improved a bit more. While not as smooth as the 25's I will reduce air pressure until ride quality is nearer to the 25's and then I will check the pressure. Are they faster? Can't tell as the wind was hellatious today. No flats and ran them without sealer. As my confidence improves I will venture farther away frome home. Rides are usaully around 70 miles or so during the week. I went prepared, 1 can of sealant, 2 tubes, 3 16gr cartridges, and my 1.50 Dean Adell's. The bike is a 2010 Bianchi S-9 Matta-ti
    Last edited by mkane77g; 04-09-10 at 08:11 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    Heres an update. Hutchinson Fusions, the new model in 23mm. I like these tires. Here in Sonoma County I run 85psi., very comfortable, almost on par with a 25mm tire. On smoother pavement up to 100psi. Did a tour in the Sierras on smooth roads, nice and smooth and very planted. Zero problems to date. No cuts or nicks, very durable. Mounted on Dura-Ace tubeless compatible wheels. I'll never go back.

  21. #21
    Climbing Above It All BikeWNC's Avatar
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    I use the DA non tubeless wheels. I doubt I'll ever go to the tubeless variety. For one, the tubeless model is heavier and the tires, what few there are are heavier, even more so than a good tire and tube. I hardly ever flat as it is so I don't see any point. Also, I can't imagine climbing out of the saddle at my 180# with only 85psi in my tire. How squishy would that feel? Perhaps someday I'll get to demo a tubeless setup but I'm certainly not going to blindly change.

  22. #22
    Senior Member mkane77g's Avatar
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    I'm 160 on a good day. At 85 psi I haven't noticed any squishyness while standing, and while decending these feel very planted, and I like going downhill. Seek out a demo set if you can, I really appreciate the ride quality.

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