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Old 05-17-10, 09:30 AM   #1
BengeBoy 
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A couple of questions for Hammer Perpetuem users

Hi, I've just started experimenting with Hammer Perpetuem to get ready for a couple of long rides this summer (150+ miles). While I've learned the lesson of "eat plenty" on long rides in the past, I think I may have overdone it on organized rides -- eating *too* much at rest stops; eating inconsistently; not eating anything between stops. I thought I would start playing around with a food/fuel like Perpetuem and see what the fuss is about.

So far, so good, on a couple of test rides (50-ish miles so far). I felt strong during the rides, and less sore the day after (though this may be the placebo effect, of course).

http://www.hammernutrition.com/produ...petuem.pp.html

I have a couple of questions about longer rides:

1. Is Perpetuem the *only* food you take on a very long ride? I'm confused by their literature; they talk about using some of their products as "primary" food or "sole" food. I'm wondering about experience of 50+'ers on century- and century-plus rides: do you eat some "real" food in addition to a product like Perpetuem? If so, do you dilute the mixture so you don't over-fuel?

2. The literature says you can mix a "multi-hour bottle" for long rides. Will that work for very long rides -- say, 10 to 12 hours? Do you really just mix up one bottle of this stuff and nurse it for 12 hours?

3. What's the shortest ride you use this on? I never take or eat food on a ride shorter than 2.5 or 3 hours now; what about using Perpetuem in "small" doses (mixed to one-half strength the recommended amount?).

Thanks for the insight -- I know there is a training and nutrition sub-forum at BF but it's more than I have the "stomach" to wade through.

BB
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Old 05-17-10, 09:40 AM   #2
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Would be interested in what folks say on this. I tired Hammer jell in a small squeeze bottle for the first time this weekend. Much better than the jell packs, so I will start using that instead of Guu.
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Old 05-17-10, 09:47 AM   #3
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I use Perpetuem on rides over 3 hours as a guidline. I mix it quite thick and put it in a gel flask. On 10-12 hour rides, I use 2 flasks.

I don't do well with heavy solid foods on long rides so rely on Perpetuem, E- Load, gels and water. this is supplemented by dried apricots, figs or Fig Newtons, bananas and salted almonds or walnuts. Every now and then I will eat a turkey wrap but as I said, it doesn't sit well.
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Old 05-17-10, 10:07 AM   #4
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Additional info: I got through to a Perpetuem "advisor" on the phone and he told me this:

1. It's fine, and maybe even preferable, to eat some "real food" at rest stops in addition to using Perpetuem. His advice, though, was to be careful not to "over-fuel." Cut the dose of Perpetuem to account for the calories you consume at a rest stop, and -- after eating real food -- don't go right back to sipping on the Perpetuem when you get back on the bike.

He stressed Hammer's advice (also in their literature) which is to err on the side of under-eating instead of over-eating.

2. He pointed out that Perpetuem, once mixed, is only good for 3 to 5 hours. (That's also in their literature). On long rides, he recommends either a gel flask (as jdon notes above) or just bringing some powder along to mix up at a rest stop.

My learning over the past couple of seasons is that I tend to over-eat on long rides. I also tend to over-eat before big rides. I guess that I had been over-influenced by the stories of "bonking," etc., and was over-compensating. The Hammer literature, which stresses eating in low, steady doses, seems consistent with my own experience -- the "loading" I was doing caused more discomfort than real benefit. Seems to make more sense to me now to begin a day with a "normal" breakfast (which for me is pretty light), and then just fuel steadily and moderately as I ride along.

Last edited by BengeBoy; 05-17-10 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 05-17-10, 10:17 AM   #5
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Interesting - glad you made the call BB. I am a big user of NUUN, non-caloric electrolyte replacement, I use the left over containers to carry my drink powders on a long ride, that way I know what I'm getting and at what strength.
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Old 05-17-10, 10:24 AM   #6
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Hi, I've just started experimenting with Hammer Perpetuem to get ready for a couple of long rides this summer (150+ miles). While I've learned the lesson of "eat plenty" on long rides in the past, I think I may have overdone it on organized rides -- eating *too* much at rest stops; eating inconsistently; not eating anything between stops. I thought I would start playing around with a food/fuel like Perpetuem and see what the fuss is about.

So far, so good, on a couple of test rides (50-ish miles so far). I felt strong during the rides, and less sore the day after (though this may be the placebo effect, of course).

http://www.hammernutrition.com/produ...petuem.pp.html

I have a couple of questions about longer rides:

1. Is Perpetuem the *only* food you take on a very long ride? I'm confused by their literature; they talk about using some of their products as "primary" food or "sole" food. I'm wondering about experience of 50+'ers on century- and century-plus rides: do you eat some "real" food in addition to a product like Perpetuem? If so, do you dilute the mixture so you don't over-fuel?

2. The literature says you can mix a "multi-hour bottle" for long rides. Will that work for very long rides -- say, 10 to 12 hours? Do you really just mix up one bottle of this stuff and nurse it for 12 hours?

3. What's the shortest ride you use this on? I never take or eat food on a ride shorter than 2.5 or 3 hours now; what about using Perpetuem in "small" doses (mixed to one-half strength the recommended amount?).

Thanks for the insight -- I know there is a training and nutrition sub-forum at BF but it's more than I have the "stomach" to wade through.

BB
Perpetuem isn't that Latin for sugar and fat infused chemicals and plastic?
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Old 05-17-10, 10:27 AM   #7
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Perpetuem isn't that Latin for sugar and fat infused chemicals and plastic?
No - that's the definition for store brand Mayonnaise
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Old 05-17-10, 10:31 AM   #8
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Perpetuem isn't that Latin for sugar and fat infused chemicals and plastic?
My wife said pretty much the same thing.

It's basically maltodextrin (starch) and soy (for protein) and some other junk for electrolyte replacement, I think. If you're smarter than I am you can mix your own.


Other Ingredients: Long Chained Maltodextrin, Soy Protein Isolates, Energy SmartŪ, Lecithin (soy), Coffee Powder, Vanilla Ice Cream Flavor, Trisodium Phosphate, Caffeine, Stevia, Amino Acids (L-Carnosine, L-Carnitine), Choline Bitartrate, Chromium Polynicotinate.
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Old 05-17-10, 10:34 AM   #9
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I used Perpetuem as my main source of fuel in my longer rides last year while I was unable to eat enough solid food to keep me going. It worked well enough and made it possible for me to ride much further than I could have done without it.. As my throat improved and I was able to eat better, I gradually quit using it as I found it to be a bother and not very pleasant tasting. I've had a small amount of the powder left in a container for several months. I'll probably throw it out. Real food works fine for me now that I am able to swallow it again.
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Old 05-17-10, 12:55 PM   #10
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Perpetuem and Sustained Energy are available at the checkpoints on most of the California double centuries and I've used them to ride thousands of trouble-free (nutrition wise) miles.

In my experience, they work very well (as does Hammer Gel), and I will continue to use them in the future. I'll occasionally use a bottle of Perpetuem (I prefer the Latte flavor) on 3 - 5 hour rides, but by far the majority of Hammer products are consumed on double centuries.

Regarding "real food" (as opposed to "funnel food" which is our slang for powdered drinks), I do eat some at the checkpoints, but they're a very small addition (guessing 10-15%) to the total calories from Perpetuem or Sustained Energy. Never had a problem mixing real food with funnel food on a ride.

I don't mix a thicker paste, but rather take small baggies of Perpetuem if I'm on a double where Hammer products are not supplied (Davis and Hemet come to mind).

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Old 05-17-10, 01:40 PM   #11
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I also use Hammer products on my rides. I use HEED on shorter rides and Perpetuem on longer rides. On a century length ride, I will often start with HEED for the first bottle or two and then switch to Perpetuem for the remainder of the ride. I mix the Perpetuem at 1.5 - 2 scoops per large bottle and also supplement it with hammergel in a flask. I carry the powder in baggies each measured out for a bottle. I just rip a corner on the bag and let it empty into the bottle at the sag stop. To tell you how well this system works for me, I have done strenuous mountain centuries without eating before the ride. I just start drinking HEED and perhaps a bit of gel at the start.

Towards the end of a long ride I have found that a can of Coke really gives me a spark so that I can finish strong. It works great to get me home the last 20 miles. I wish all rides would stock it at their late sag stops.

As for solid food on long rides, I might pick on a few pretzels, fig newtons or an orange quarter that is all. On long training rides I eat whatever I want from convenience stores along the way, like snickers, etc.
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Old 05-17-10, 02:21 PM   #12
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Towards the end of a long ride I have found that a can of Coke really gives me a spark so that I can finish strong. It works great to get me home the last 20 miles. I wish all rides would stock it at their late sag stops.
Very true BikeWNC,
For the end of double centuries I'll often put a can of Monster, Rock Star, Red Bull, etc. in the bag with my lights to pick up at the "light drop" checkpoint (approx. 160 miles into the ride).

The caffeine gives a better kick to my pedal stroke and seems to dull the pain a bit in the last 30 - 40 miles of a double.

Coke is good too, esp. to finish centuries, but Rock Star, etc. are better for doubles (in my experience anyway).

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Old 05-17-10, 04:18 PM   #13
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I forgot to add their FDA disclaimer.

Can one of you write me a prescription?


"FDA Disclaimer

None of the statements in this web site have been evaluated by the FDA.

Furthermore, none of the statements in this web site should be construed as dispensing medical advise, making claims regarding the cure of diseases, nor can these products prevent heat stroke, hyponatremia, or any other injurious results of excessive physical exhaustion. You, the athlete, must listen to your body and use common sense to avoid serious injury.

You should consult a licensed health care professional before starting any supplement, dietary or exercise program, especially if you are pregnant or have any pre existing injuries or medical conditions. "


If I had enough "common sense to avoid serious injury" I wouldn't be doing a 150 mile bike ride in the mountains anyway. Seems to me that if I roll up to the starting line I've already failed the common sense test.
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Old 05-17-10, 06:48 PM   #14
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I have to say that BikeWNC explained my fueling strategy this past weekend to a 'T'. I rode the Central Florida MS150 and did the 78 mile route both days. Hammer Bar for pre-ride, gel to start, Perpetuem at each 20 mile stop, and a few snacks and gel (flask) along the way. I finished very strong both days, even stronger than I expected. Plain water and Nuun tablets the whole way kept me full of electrolytes. A snack sized sandwich bag with the right amount of Perpetuem, tear off the corner and dump it in the bottle. One downside is that the powder is so fine it blows around easily and can make a sticky mess of sweaty skin.

I am a believer in the Hammer products and their literature does a good job of explaining how it works. For short rides most anything will keep you going, but for metric centuries and above the right nutrition makes all the difference.

Mark
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Old 05-17-10, 09:00 PM   #15
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I'm also a Hammer products guy. For long rides I mix a couple scoops of Perpetuem in a bottle and freeze it overnight, then drink off what melts. I believe that will give me 4+ hours of fuel without spoiling. I also mix Hammer Gel flavors chocolate and raspberry together in a gel flask for races and shorter rides. On hot days and longer races I also will pop some electrolyte pills. After rides I use the Recoverite product.

I intend to do a couple long solo rides later this summer and will keep in mind the tip regarding putting measured Perpetuem in plastic bags.
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Old 05-18-10, 01:05 AM   #16
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Thank all for your tips, experience and advice. I just couldn't bear the thought of wading through all the stuff out on the web about endurance fuels -- it makes my head hurt reading it. You guys are a wealth of knowledge, nicely distilled.

Thanks!
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Old 05-19-10, 01:43 AM   #17
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I mix my own for 1/10th the cost. Maltodextrin (Maltrin QD500), Electrolyte powder, soy protein. You may have seen these articles but attached for your reference.

http://www.arniebakercycling.com/pub...tion%20ABC.pdf

http://www.hammernutrition.com/downl...nghandbook.pdf
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Old 05-19-10, 04:48 PM   #18
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I have tried varies food substitutes but keep coming back to my own home-made mix. I mix salted nuts, gummy bears, and dried fruits, sometimes M&Ms, put them in a zip lock bag and munch on those through the ride, washed down with water.

May not be too scientific or fancy, but it works for me.
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Old 05-19-10, 06:18 PM   #19
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I'm in such a different place. I used to try electrolyte drinks for running. Gave me the runs. I stuck to water. I used to chew Powerbars while riding to avoid the bonk. Then I got diabetes. Now I take 2 peanut butter and (sugar free) jelly sandwiches on whole wheat bread on all centuries. I eat a half at a time when I stop. I wonder what the science and nutrition is on that?

Sorry Bengeboy. I'm cluttering up your thread with my irrelevant twaddle.
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Old 05-19-10, 07:17 PM   #20
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Now I take 2 peanut butter and (sugar free) jelly sandwiches on whole wheat bread on all centuries. I eat a half at a time when I stop. I wonder what the science and nutrition is on that?
.
I think that is fine nutrition. Many people like the convenience of bars, pre-made powders, gels and other nutrition products. I have user dried apricots, fig newtons, and other things in the past. They work OK for me but I don't seem to get the sustained energy. Now my bar of choice is a Kashi trail mix bar, it is easily digested and tastes great. It also seems to provide me with good fuel for a long period of time. Lately I find some a high protein bars tend to provide even more sustained energy (they also have more calories than the Kashi bars). I could make my own electrolyte powder, there are lots of recipes for that on the web - but NUUN is so easy to use. Of course you can fuel with real food - but many people find the specialty products are easier to use particularly while you are riding and not getting off the bike to eat.
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Old 05-19-10, 07:53 PM   #21
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I think that is fine nutrition. Many people like the convenience of bars, pre-made powders, gels and other nutrition products. I have user dried apricots, fig newtons, and other things in the past. They work OK for me but I don't seem to get the sustained energy. Now my bar of choice is a Kashi trail mix bar, it is easily digested and tastes great. It also seems to provide me with good fuel for a long period of time. Lately I find some a high protein bars tend to provide even more sustained energy (they also have more calories than the Kashi bars). I could make my own electrolyte powder, there are lots of recipes for that on the web - but NUUN is so easy to use. Of course you can fuel with real food - but many people find the specialty products are easier to use particularly while you are riding and not getting off the bike to eat.
I think, unless your racing, it's helpful to get off the bike once in a while, get the blood flow going again to the hands, and uh, saddle area. My favourite is GORP, and having a look at some of the prices on some of those supplements, I can buy a lot of GORP for the same money, and you only need to eat as much as you think you need.
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Old 05-20-10, 06:39 AM   #22
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It gets pretty hot down here, so for rides over 4 hours, I'll carry 4 bottles. The first bottle will have ice cubes the second will be about one third froze, the third will be half froze and the last one will be completely frozen. Heed goes into the first two and Perpetuem in the last two. I also Carry a small bottle of gel apple Cinnamon. I have better and colder water this way, rather than to stop somewhere and refill the bottles.
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Old 05-20-10, 07:42 AM   #23
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That's a pretty complex plan, George.
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Old 05-20-10, 10:11 AM   #24
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It gets pretty hot down here, so for rides over 4 hours, I'll carry 4 bottles. The first bottle will have ice cubes the second will be about one third froze, the third will be half froze and the last one will be completely frozen. Heed goes into the first two and Perpetuem in the last two. I also Carry a small bottle of gel apple Cinnamon. I have better and colder water this way, rather than to stop somewhere and refill the bottles.
George - you must have bottles hanging from every possible place on the bike.
I agree with AJ, way to complex for me. I would probably screw up and drink from the wrong bottle at the wrong time. BTW - tried the apple cinnamon for the first time last weekend - my new favorite gel
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Old 05-20-10, 11:47 AM   #25
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As long as it's cold and wet
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