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Old 06-29-10, 10:00 AM   #1
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50+ smart wrenches - tell me why ....

Posted on Bicycle Mechanics also. Someone has got to have the answer.

Here is the original post. Bottom bracket tick when out of the saddle. If you read the post everything was tried to get rid of it. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=#post10766019

On a group ride last week I come to find this is a common problem with outboard bottom bracket bearings. 3 of 10 bikes, including mine had the tick. Sounded like the crock from Peter Pan when we were climbing.

Here is the kicker. Last night I was riding with the tick and got caught in a Texas frog strangler downpour. Made it to shelter and waited it out. On my route home I have 2 pretty good hills. Climbing up the first one and NO TICK from the bottom bracket. Hill #2 NO TICK.

What the heck is going on here? Is getting caught in a downpour the answer to this problem.
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Old 06-29-10, 11:37 AM   #2
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Not had the BB tick but from my engineering experience- Temperature does affect the Tightness and smooth running of bearings. A bearing that when stationary feels perfect can be loose (Or tight) when up to working temperature. On the race engines that I used to work with- I used a grade called "C3" for the crankshaft and on the bench it could feel notchy but when at working temp it was perfect. Use a C2 and the engine was tight and a C4 and you had crankshaft float.

So rain cooling the bearing-and possibly some lubrication- and it could be the cure. Just carry a bottle of water and next time it ticks- spray it with water. May not work but it will keep your feet cool.
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Old 06-29-10, 11:58 AM   #3
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IME, a ticking/clicking bb isn't the bearings. It's the cups/lockrings/etc moving in the frame, possible exacerbated by some surface corrosion on the threads. The reason it stopped after getting caught in the rain is that water (an excellent lubricant, btw) seeped in between the moving bits. I'd pull it apart, make sure the threads (both on the bb and in the frame) are clean, put a light layer of grease on all of the threads and the bearing/cup interface, and put it back together, making sure that everything's nice and snug.

And just to complicate things, it might NOT be the bb: could be chainrings shifting around, pedal threads, crank bolts... pretty much anything in that end of the drive train. Or, even better, your frame could have a crack in it. If the clean/lube/reinstall process doesn't fix it, it may be time to call in professional help. Good luck.

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Old 06-29-10, 12:19 PM   #4
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Done the clean the bb and relube multiple times. I now have teflon tape on the threads as suggested in the replies to the original post. In the original post on the issue, every possible standard fix was tried.

Called my LBS and talked to the chief mechanic. This is an ongoing issue with external bb mostly on carbon frames according to him. He said there seems to be no sure fire fix. He told me if you get 1000 miles without a noise you are doing good. So who is the genius who came up with this external bb thing anyway?

I figured the rain, ie water was lubricating the area producing the noise and according to a post in the mechanics area the noise will return as soon as it dries out.

I am going to try one last thing on the outboard bearings. Find a very thin nylon or teflon washer and insert between the frame and the bearing housing. If it is flexing between those areas this might be the answer. Will impact the chainline however.

The final thing I am going to try is to install an older Shimano octalink bb and cranks and see if the click is still there.
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Old 06-29-10, 12:46 PM   #5
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I have not been able to open up the link to your original post so hopefully my suggestions are not old news. Have you tried switching wheelsets?, Thightening the freehub?, Lubing the front skewer?, and Cleaning the headset? I have found all of those as fixes when searching out bottom bracket noises after taking the BB apart, cleaning and tightening. Recently I even had a ticking sound, only when standing or hammering in the drops, being the valve extender hitting the deep section carbon rims on my race wheels. A little bit of hot glue stopped that.
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Old 06-29-10, 01:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oilman_15106 View Post
Posted on Bicycle Mechanics also. Someone has got to have the answer.

Here is the original post. Bottom bracket tick when out of the saddle. If you read the post everything was tried to get rid of it. http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...=#post10766019
The link is broken.
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Old 06-29-10, 01:35 PM   #7
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So who is the genius who came up with this external bb thing anyway?
It came from fixing what ain't broke, in this case, the perfectly good square taper bottom bracket standard. someone decided they needed a better interface between the shaft and the crank arms, so they came up with a splined hollow tube. Shimano used Octolink. Everyone else used ISIS. Soon they found that ISIS BBs were failing at an alarming rate. They decided that the hollow tube took up so much space that there was not room for adequate bearing surface. So they came up with the idea of moving the bearings outboard of the shaft so there would be plenty of bearing room.

I have one bike with external bearing BB, my Stumpjumper. It seems to work fine, but no better than the square taper BBs on my other bikes.
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Old 06-29-10, 02:11 PM   #8
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Chain ring bolts need tightening.
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Old 06-29-10, 02:22 PM   #9
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The link doesn't work. But I gather this is a carbon frame with external BB. First, I'll say that creaking is usually something moving. And it can be happening almost anywhere; sound travels in surprising ways sometimes. For standard metal-framed bikes, grease everything that has threads, and also grease everything that clamps. That means the steerer tube, the handlebars, the seatpost, seat rails, etc. Everything that's metal. I might make exceptions but only for the quick release skewers, but tighten them a quarter-turn. For carbon the rules change slightly. You still grease everything that's threaded (and use a torque wrench to tighten them!) but for anything that's clamped you use a light-to-medium hold adhesive spray. I use Scotch77.

For sure, pull the crank and bottom bracket and lightly grease all the threads and interfaces, but be prepared to widen your search for the offending part.
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Old 06-29-10, 02:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet View Post
I have not been able to open up the link to your original post so hopefully my suggestions are not old news. Have you tried switching wheelsets?, Thightening the freehub?, Lubing the front skewer?, and Cleaning the headset? I have found all of those as fixes when searching out bottom bracket noises after taking the BB apart, cleaning and tightening. Recently I even had a ticking sound, only when standing or hammering in the drops, being the valve extender hitting the deep section carbon rims on my race wheels. A little bit of hot glue stopped that.
Sorry about the bad link. Above done, done, done, done and done and chain ring bolts retorqued - done.
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Old 06-29-10, 02:26 PM   #11
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So is it fixed?
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Old 06-29-10, 03:41 PM   #12
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Have you consulted a doctor? It could be a case of "older creaking bones". Some of that has been going around.
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Old 06-29-10, 05:20 PM   #13
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Are you sure it's your bb? Sounds a whole lot like an improperly tightened cog. Sound telegraphs in strange ways in carbon frames. Could also just be tip of cable hitting frame.

Also, it is tick season...
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Old 06-29-10, 05:52 PM   #14
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My creaking or tick turned out to be the seat was just a tad loose.
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Old 06-29-10, 06:47 PM   #15
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It came from fixing what ain't broke, in this case, the perfectly good square taper bottom bracket standard. someone decided they needed a better interface between the shaft and the crank arms, so they came up with a splined hollow tube. Shimano used Octolink. Everyone else used ISIS. Soon they found that ISIS BBs were failing at an alarming rate. They decided that the hollow tube took up so much space that there was not room for adequate bearing surface. So they came up with the idea of moving the bearings outboard of the shaft so there would be plenty of bearing room.

I have one bike with external bearing BB, my Stumpjumper. It seems to work fine, but no better than the square taper BBs on my other bikes.
Not gonna argue your capsule history here, dawg, but I've also used all of the listed BB's.

The square taper gave me flex.
The Octalink was pretty much flawless.
The ISIS was, and still is, flawless.
The outboard-bearing BB is flawless, and a touch stiffer than any of the others. A bit problematic with adjustments, but performance has been exquisite. It just takes a bit more to dial in.

My Dakar XLT has the outboard; I have an older hardtail in the process of a rebuild, and it's running Octalink with a 1x8, front disc, and skiiiiiinnny urban tires!

The various splined BB's were innovated because of square-tapers failing during hard MTB'ing (freeriding), btw.
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Old 06-29-10, 07:21 PM   #16
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Have you eliminated the pedal(s) or cleat(s) as the culprit? Temporary substitution is a quick way to find out.
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Old 06-29-10, 07:49 PM   #17
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The various splined BB's were innovated because of square-tapers failing during hard MTB'ing (freeriding), btw.
That makes sense. Downhilling and freeriding puts a lot more stress on the spindle to crank interface than anything that would ever happen on the road.
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Old 06-29-10, 09:14 PM   #18
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Have you eliminated the pedal(s) or cleat(s) as the culprit? Temporary substitution is a quick way to find out.
Yup, that was my vote, but you beat me to it. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone ask me about the "tick" in their crankset and after we change the pedals, the "tick" magically goes away. Pedals need grease too.
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Old 06-30-10, 11:41 AM   #19
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Not fixed and have tried every suggestion made and thanks. On bike mechanics someone suggested liquid nylon thread filler? Anyone have any idea what this is?
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Old 06-30-10, 12:44 PM   #20
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Not fixed and have tried every suggestion made and thanks. On bike mechanics someone suggested liquid nylon thread filler? Anyone have any idea what this is?
They were probably referring to an anaerobic thread locker, Loctite is the most common. If you go that way, use Loctite 222 for the BB cup threads. It's a low strength variant that will allow removal of the cups if need be.

The ticking is likely at the interface of the radial bearing and the cup. Ideally there would be literally no clearance between bearing and cup, a "net" fit. Try wiping a film of anti-seize in the interface of bearings to cups.
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Old 06-30-10, 03:21 PM   #21
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According to my bike mechanic friend, a big cause of problems with the external bearings is the lack of perfectly orthogonal (to the axle) BB end- surfaces. An off-true puts a lot of stress on the bearings. If one converts from internal to external you need to resurface/true the BB ends. He did that on my old 2003 Stump jumper FSR frame when I went external and they worked great. The bearing friction on external is less than internal. I found that to be the case for both my wife's and my mountain bike.

I personally would not use locktite. It might be too hard to undo given the large diameter. I"d use grease and torque to the specified value.

On the pedal idea, pedals can actally unscrew themselves. It's not supposed to happen based on the tread direction, but I had one almost come-off during an out of the saddle climb. My friend says it's not all that unusual. Might check pedal tightness.



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Old 06-30-10, 04:30 PM   #22
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Well, if I'd have tried all that been posted above and there was still a noise, I'd just take my hearing aids out. Problem gone.
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Old 06-30-10, 05:46 PM   #23
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Well, if I'd have tried all that been posted above and there was still a noise, I'd just take my hearing aids out. Problem gone.
If were only that easy!

I guess I could always pull the iPod out put the ear buds in and CRANK Neil Diamond up. Maybe ABBA. Ace of Base. Just Kidding.
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Old 06-30-10, 05:54 PM   #24
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I have decided to rotate between three chains every 500 to 650 miles with the idea that I'll extend the life of my cogs and the chains if I do so. My second chain was a Wipperman. I thought it would be a step-up from the KMC that came with the bike. This thing "grumbled" the whole time I used it and I sort of got used to the sound. I replaced it with a KMC and now it's silence. Almost eerie. Nothing but the wind sound in my ears and the cars coming from behind.
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Old 07-01-10, 01:44 PM   #25
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They were probably referring to an anaerobic thread locker, Loctite is the most common. If you go that way, use Loctite 222 for the BB cup threads. It's a low strength variant that will allow removal of the cups if need be.

The ticking is likely at the interface of the radial bearing and the cup. Ideally there would be literally no clearance between bearing and cup, a "net" fit. Try wiping a film of anti-seize in the interface of bearings to cups.
Says it is actually liquid nylon? The type used on self locking nuts available for industrial applications. Still looking for it.

How would you get anti-seize in the inter face of the bearings and the cups as the bb is essentially a sealed unit. The bearings are supposed to be press fit into the cups. Shimano even includes in the instructions "Do not remove the bearings"!

I saw an interesting thing from Locktite. A tape thread sealer that is wrapped on the threads similar to teflon tape. They say it is anaerobic and takes a day to set.

Any thoughts on the nylon washer idea between the bb cups and the frame itself??
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