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  1. #26
    Senior Member kr32's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhbernhardt View Post
    I ride the "Galloping Goose" trail in Victoria, BC quite a bit, and I'm one of only a few cyclists with a bell mounted (it's attached to the pump, like the amateur racers do in Belgium where I think bells are required by law). I'll usually use the bell when approaching peds from behind. I whistle thru my teeth (a technique I learned in Mexico where cyclists whistle at drivers to announce their presence) when approaching slower cyclists from behind (louder than the bell but a more piercing sound). I think the advantage of a bell is that it's non-intimidating. It's like dainty Tinkerbell is behind you. It merely announces your presence. A car horn, on the other hand, is objectionable because its message is "get the #%$ out of my way!" I have acually been thanked on occasion for using the bell. More often, though, peds will just keep walking straight, or make like they haven't heard the bell, especially if they are two abreast blocking half the path.

    I think a big problem is just plain arrogance. Each MUP user is loathe to acknowledge that they need to "get out of anyone's way." They see it as a sign of weakness, as forelock-tugging. The worst are two or three females that block the path. They are usually so arrogant or condescending theyll move over for no one. Likely a product of our cultural times, where everybody thinks he's a celebrity, "king/queen of the world." You see less and less courtesy these days in impersonal places like MUPs.

    The only guys who pass me are wannabe racers who are out to prove something (I'm usually travelling at around 30 kmh, which I think is the highest speed reasonable on a MUP - quick but I'm not making any kind of effort, and I'm able to respond/slow down quickly). I can usually hear tire noise coming up behind me (plus I look around quite a bit). But I'm usually positioned towards the right side of the lane anyway, so it's never a big issue.

    With cyclists, the guys that bother me are the ones I'm about to pass who pull out without looking to pass even slower riders ahead of them. If I have whistled or otherwise announced my presence, then I think it's fair game to buzz or bump them. Usually in a bike/bike collision, it's the guy being overtaken who goes down, so it doesn't bother me (especially if I'm in a foul competitive mood), plus I've had about 35 years of bike racing experience, so I can handle bumps. I even practice bumping against the rails of bike bridges if they extend out like the balustrade around a velodrome. It makes you a better bike handler and able to absorb bumping in a pack.

    People with dogs are usually the most appreciative of the bell; however, I wish they would learn to walk on MUPs with themselves between the dogs and the bike traffic. If you ever visit a stable where they keep racehorses, you're always cautioned to make sure that when you are passing by a horse and trainer, you should always have the trainer between you and the horse. I wish more dog owners would learn this...

    Luis
    Wow! Seems rather harsh to me. I would never bump someone on purpose because I felt I was right.
    no goals , just ride

  2. #27
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    I pass 20-30 people each way on every 3 mile commute.
    If I can pass safely and curteously, I don't call out or ring... I'd be a non-stop noise maker.

    When I do call out "rider back" or similar, I get about
    1/3 of the people with no response at all (earbuds mostly, maybe hard of hearing),
    1/3 do the right thing and simply move to the right, and another
    1/3 do entirely the wrong thing like turn around to see who's coming and walk right into my path.

    Everyone is entitled to safety, but if they don't know trail etiquette (wrong way, weaving, taking up too much room) then they might be startled a little when I pass... too bad.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhbernhardt View Post
    I think a big problem is just plain arrogance. Each MUP user is loathe to acknowledge that they need to "get out of anyone's way." They see it as a sign of weakness, as forelock-tugging. The worst are two or three females that block the path. They are usually so arrogant or condescending theyll move over for no one. Likely a product of our cultural times, where everybody thinks he's a celebrity, "king/queen of the world." You see less and less courtesy these days in impersonal places like MUPs.

    ...

    People with dogs are usually the most appreciative of the bell; however, I wish they would learn to walk on MUPs with themselves between the dogs and the bike traffic. If you ever visit a stable where they keep racehorses, you're always cautioned to make sure that when you are passing by a horse and trainer, you should always have the trainer between you and the horse. I wish more dog owners would learn this...

    Luis
    It IS an arrogance issue; women like that are so full of themselves and their sense of 'entitlement', it's sickening. They usually get a few 'words' thrown at them.....

    Had a dog-walker approaching me the other day; he was considerate in making room, but kept the dog between us. The dog lunged at me, nearly upsetting the foolish one. But, you can't teach an ignorant ghetto fool ANYthing, it's a personal attack to even hint at imperfection....

  4. #29
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    I use a bell and usually greet anyone I pass on a MUP. I much prefer riding on roads and dealing with cars... I frequently use a MUP to get to the gym. I rang my bell as I approached a women with several kids in tow. Slowing way down because you never know what the kiddiess will do. She stood in the middle of the path with one kid. One kid was on one side of the path and another kid was on the other side of the path. I nearly did a track stand as I negotiated my way around them. then she said, "Make up your mind on which side of the path you want to use." I had no response but was able to laugh to myself after I was safely past.

    Ever see the sign that declares, "Bicycles yield to horse and to pedestrians (hikers)"?? Gives you a perspective on where bikes fit in the pecking order on MUPs. I try to never ride fast on the paths and always slow down around other users. Even the ones with ear buds and totally oblivious to anything.

    yeah, give me the open road any day.

  5. #30
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    Interesting the responses. My experience is that everyone must remember they are but one MUP user. Regardless of signs those little paved paths are used by motorcycles, 4 wheelers, bicycles, walkers, runners, kids, adults, people on walkers, people who are deaf, etc.

    It is best to assume no one hears or sees you. To assume no one understands what a bell or "on your left" means. It is also best if everone rides as though the other person is a complete stranger to local customs and needs to be given wide birth.

    Someone might challenge the motorized vehicle use on MUPs. All I can say is you haven't lived until you go around a blind corner on a slight downhill and come face to face with a speeding 4-wheeler spraying gravel and ridden by an immortal teen.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lhbernhardt View Post
    I ride the "Galloping Goose" trail in Victoria, BC quite a bit, and I'm one of only a few cyclists with a bell mounted (it's attached to the pump, like the amateur racers do in Belgium where I think bells are required by law). I'll usually use the bell when approaching peds from behind. I whistle thru my teeth (a technique I learned in Mexico where cyclists whistle at drivers to announce their presence) when approaching slower cyclists from behind (louder than the bell but a more piercing sound). I think the advantage of a bell is that it's non-intimidating. It's like dainty Tinkerbell is behind you. It merely announces your presence. A car horn, on the other hand, is objectionable because its message is "get the #%$ out of my way!" I have acually been thanked on occasion for using the bell. More often, though, peds will just keep walking straight, or make like they haven't heard the bell, especially if they are two abreast blocking half the path.

    I think a big problem is just plain arrogance. Each MUP user is loathe to acknowledge that they need to "get out of anyone's way." They see it as a sign of weakness, as forelock-tugging. The worst are two or three females that block the path. They are usually so arrogant or condescending theyll move over for no one. Likely a product of our cultural times, where everybody thinks he's a celebrity, "king/queen of the world." You see less and less courtesy these days in impersonal places like MUPs.

    The only guys who pass me are wannabe racers who are out to prove something (I'm usually travelling at around 30 kmh, which I think is the highest speed reasonable on a MUP - quick but I'm not making any kind of effort, and I'm able to respond/slow down quickly). I can usually hear tire noise coming up behind me (plus I look around quite a bit). But I'm usually positioned towards the right side of the lane anyway, so it's never a big issue.

    With cyclists, the guys that bother me are the ones I'm about to pass who pull out without looking to pass even slower riders ahead of them. If I have whistled or otherwise announced my presence, then I think it's fair game to buzz or bump them. Usually in a bike/bike collision, it's the guy being overtaken who goes down, so it doesn't bother me (especially if I'm in a foul competitive mood), plus I've had about 35 years of bike racing experience, so I can handle bumps. I even practice bumping against the rails of bike bridges if they extend out like the balustrade around a velodrome. It makes you a better bike handler and able to absorb bumping in a pack.

    People with dogs are usually the most appreciative of the bell; however, I wish they would learn to walk on MUPs with themselves between the dogs and the bike traffic. If you ever visit a stable where they keep racehorses, you're always cautioned to make sure that when you are passing by a horse and trainer, you should always have the trainer between you and the horse. I wish more dog owners would learn this...

    Luis
    You would think that all these arrogant people on your path would get the @$#%#^ out of your way. Don't they know who you are?

  7. #32
    Banned. DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
    I pass 20-30 people each way on every 3 mile commute.
    If I can pass safely and curteously, I don't call out or ring... I'd be a non-stop noise maker.

    When I do call out "rider back" or similar, I get about
    1/3 of the people with no response at all (earbuds mostly, maybe hard of hearing),
    1/3 do the right thing and simply move to the right, and another
    1/3 do entirely the wrong thing like turn around to see who's coming and walk right into my path.

    Everyone is entitled to safety, but if they don't know trail etiquette (wrong way, weaving, taking up too much room) then they might be startled a little when I pass... too bad.

    I don't know many peds or other MUP users who would have a clue what "rider back" means????

    Around here peds and horses have the right of way - legally. If you hit one, then you are going to be presumed to be at fauly unless you can argue your way out of it - in a civil suit before a judge. I don't think "rider back" would make much of an impression on a judge. There is no law requiring other MUP users to know the "etiquette" of trail walking.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
    1/3 do the right thing and simply move to the right, and another
    That would describe what happens about 75% of the time on the paths here. About all you can do is size up the person as quickly as possible; does it appear to be a "regular" user, or some tourist wandering slack-jawed, to who a MUP is as foreign and wonder-inspiring as a pisoir in Paris? If it's the former, I usu. give a bell ring or gentle horn toot. If it's the latter, or most anywhere in between, best to pass as silently, and with as much distance, as possible.

    Motorized vehicles are illegal on most MUPs (all of them here). Occasionally someone on one of those insufferable powered stand-on scooters sneaks on, but anything more "obvious" than that would, er, not be tolerated.

    Dogs are also illegal. The MUPs here are maintained by the Parks Division, and they have designated parks that allow dogs. If it's not marked as dogs allowed, they're not. That said, they're usu. not an issue except when the owner lets one cross the path with one of those wind-up leashes. Of course, any "issue" with dogs and other humans is an owner problem, not a dog problem.

  9. #34
    Senior Member donheff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    But, you can't teach an ignorant ghetto fool ANYthing, it's a personal attack to even hint at imperfection....
    Is that the racist comment it sounds like or am I missing some background here?
    Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson

  10. #35
    Senior Member mvnsnd's Avatar
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    The trails near me are not very wide. Realistically only three people side by side can occupy the trial. I usually ride alone and sometimes encounter groups that ride 2 abreast. While I wish they would go single file, it doesn't always happen. And I encounter walkers. rollerbladers, dog walkers, and even a guy on roller ski's once this year. I am always courteous, announce myself, and say thanks to those that move over. I also use the trail to walk my dog and encounter too many cyclists that don't announce themselves. I wish they would, but it has trained me to always look around while on the trail. I want to set the example for a friendly experience for all who use the trail.

    And while riding, I am using the trail for fitness training, I ride quickly, but cautiously.

  11. #36
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    I don't know many peds or other MUP users who would have a clue what "rider back" means????

    Around here peds and horses have the right of way - legally. If you hit one, then you are going to be presumed to be at fauly unless you can argue your way out of it - in a civil suit before a judge. I don't think "rider back" would make much of an impression on a judge. There is no law requiring other MUP users to know the "etiquette" of trail walking.
    As I said, everyone on the trail is entitled to safety; not everyone is entitled to curtesy. I don't understand why you're trying to twist my statements into some kind of legal defense for riding dangerously. The only person I've ever hit was a mild rear-end collision (very slow speed) with a lady on a bike who stopped suddenly in an awkward spot... oh and a skateboarder and I once kind of bumped shoulders.

    Knowledge of trail etiquette is not a requirement for trail use, but anyone who doesn't use it can't expect to get it.
    Last edited by DiabloScott; 08-13-10 at 10:59 AM.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
    As I said, everyone on the trail is entitled to safety; not everyone is entitled to curtesy. I don't understand why you're trying to twist my statements into some kind of legal defense for riding dangerously. The only person I've ever hit was a mild rear-end collision (very slow speed) with a lady on a bike who stopped suddenly in an awkward spot... oh and a skateboarder and I once kind of bumped shoulders.

    Knowledge of trail etiquette is not a requirement for trail use, but anyone who doesn't use it can't expect to get it.
    Disagree. Courtesy is the foundation of safety in any group setting, including MUPs. In just about every accident or near accident I've encountered arrogance and/or lack of courtesy was at the heart of the incident.

    Although a person may not know the "rules of trail etiquette" they are still fully entititled to receiving the benefits of that etiquette from those who do know. Giving everyone a safe path is just the courteous and safe thing to do.

    Many of us who travel are often in situations bicycle related and others where we don't know the local rules and culture. It is up to the locals to courtesly inform us so we may all enjoy the activity.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

  13. #38
    It's MY mountain DiabloScott's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latitude65 View Post
    Disagree. Courtesy is the foundation of safety in any group setting, including MUPs. In just about every accident or near accident I've encountered arrogance and/or lack of courtesy was at the heart of the incident.

    Although a person may not know the "rules of trail etiquette" they are still fully entititled to receiving the benefits of that etiquette from those who do know. Giving everyone a safe path is just the courteous and safe thing to do.

    Many of us who travel are often in situations bicycle related and others where we don't know the local rules and culture. It is up to the locals to courtesly inform us so we may all enjoy the activity.
    Jeez I hope I don't sound like some kind of rude jerk! I am a safe rider who gets annoyed at clueless trail users because they're the ones being unsafe. When I see someone who looks like he might be a hazard, I might not ring my bell or call out, I'll get around him quickly and safely and not concern myself with courtesy. For perspective, I'm talking about a very busy MUP that gets used by dog walkers, baby strollers, joggers, and commuters... not some remote trail where you might not see anyone for miles.

    I'll disagree that courtesy is the foundation of safety though - I'd put knowledge of the risks and awareness of surroundings much higher.
    http://diabloscott.blogspot.com/

  14. #39
    Dharma Dog lhbernhardt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bgary View Post
    You would think that all these arrogant people on your path would get the @$#%#^ out of your way. Don't they know who you are?
    No problem; I see your point. But if you want to be able to complain about others, you have to start off being pretty clean yourself. So I make sure I'm clean, and that starts with acknowledging that it's a public path, and that I do have to look out for others (hence the bell, or whistling, and making sure I give unsuspecting peds plenty of room). But if they choose to ignore my warnings, then look out, I've got the moral high ground!

    Luis

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiabloScott View Post
    I'll disagree that courtesy is the foundation of safety though - I'd put knowledge of the risks and awareness of surroundings much higher.
    That may be true from a "me" perspective, but does your awareness include the knowledge of the inherent risk in an environment characterized by politeness and observance of law, as opposed to that of, say, a prison, a riot or a war-zone? It is easy to think you have things together when, in fact, you are enjoying the unseen goodness of others.

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    Some folks out there are just plain clueless!

    Last month while slowly cruising the local MUP (about 10mph), I encountered two women walking towards me. One was along her right edge of the MUP and the other was in the center. The one in the center of the path was running her mouth non stop as the other appeared to be patiently listening.

    I approach them staying on my right side of the MUP allowing about three feet for me to coast past. Since these were two adult women, no Spring Chickens, and they were walking right towards me I didn't feel it was neccesary to ring my bell.

    Boy, was I ever wrong! She Who Constantly Runs Mouth must have been startled by my 'Suprise' presence because within the a fraction of a second of my passing by she blurted out "At least he should have a bell!".

    I promptly rang my bell and shouted out "Time to wake up, stupid!" and just kept on riding.

    Did I mention that I really hate stupid.

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    Not on MUP but at crosswalk this evening. I was crossing from a MUP across a 4 lane divided highway to a sidewalk designated as Bike Allowed. Pedestrians coming toward me followed by another person on a bike. Behind me was another pedestrian.

    The Walk sign lit and we all started across. A box truck made a right turn in front of me. The driver kept his eyes on the pedestrians and the cyclist on his right, directly in front of me. So, he missed them but had I not braked he would have hit me.

    I YELLED "Watch Out, YOU JUST BROKE THE LAW AND MADE A DANGEROUS TURN". The guy jumped so high he almost lost control of his truck. The truck driver behind him, and who saw me and the person behind me, stopped and broke out laughing. We shared a smile and off we went. Situation handled and no one got hurt.

    I thought I was being very courteous. I yelled because he obviously had tunnel vision and his window was up. By his reaction I'll bet he looks both ways next time.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by donheff View Post
    Is that the racist comment it sounds like or am I missing some background here?
    You're missing a TON of background here.

    It's not racism when you're speaking from a multitude of personal experience, first of all. And second, MORE IMPORTANTLY, where does "ignorant ghetto fool" point to a color or race? I think you're channeling your OWN racial biases here.

    The "ghetto" where I live is a rainbow -- white, black, hispanic, Burmese, and any mixture of the same. None have a valid claim to serious intelligence, just by observation.

    The Burmese drivers here are actually DANGEROUS, having caused multiple accidents by disregarding traffic lights.

    2 out of 3 black folks here belligerently defend their 'right' to blast 'music' at illegal levels.

    More than a couple hispanic folks like to play 'no habla ingles', then snicker at you.

    And a fair number of the white folks act like being white is a curse, and try to 'be black'.

    I've been back from overseas military service for about 22 years, and 15 of those have been living in the ghetto. When people first talk to me, I've been told they 'hear black', because I don't talk like they think I would, based on my skin tone.

    My bottom line is pretty simple: people are people, regardless of color... and most people just SUCK.

  19. #44
    Senior Member donheff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DX-MAN View Post
    You're missing a TON of background here.

    It's not racism when you're speaking from a multitude of personal experience, first of all. And second, MORE IMPORTANTLY, where does "ignorant ghetto fool" point to a color or race? I think you're channeling your OWN racial biases here...

    My bottom line is pretty simple: people are people, regardless of color... and most people just SUCK.
    .
    ghetˇtos or ghetˇtoes 1. A usually poor section of a city inhabited primarily by people of the same race, religion, or social background, often because of discrimination.
    2. An often walled quarter in a European city to which Jews were restricted beginning in the Middle Ages.
    3. Something that resembles the restriction or isolation of a city ghetto: "trapped in ethnic or pink-collar managerial job ghettoes" (Diane Weathers).

    The word implies a poor section filled primarily with a minority group of one sort or another. Naturally your readers see racism despite the fact that you may dislike everybody.
    Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson

  20. #45
    His Brain is Gone! Tom Bombadil's Avatar
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    I have walked on MUPs a few times this year. I have found the following about myself.

    1) If someone dings a bell, I move to the right.
    2) If someone says "Passing," I move to the right.
    3) If someone says "Behind you," I move to the right.
    4) If someone says "On your left," I instinctively move to the left. I can't stop myself. The word "left" enters my mind, I know I need to move, so I move left.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    Interesting. Our "walkers" are very well "bell-trained" - sort of like a Pavlovian effect - they hear the ring and move over - and I get numerous "thank yous" as I pass. Must be a cultural thing.
    DnvrFox,
    I find this to be true for the most part. However, I honestly get mixed reactions on my commute on the C-470 path between Sante Fe and I-25.

    My previous hybrid commuter bike had a bell, and I've had a lot of walkers do this thing where they: stop, turn around, look down at the ground, and then take a big step back so they're as far over to the right as they can get. Then they scowl at me as I pass. It's almost like they took my bell to mean "get outta the way...." and it irritated them (even though I started ringing it from a good distance)

    Now my new drop bar bike doesn't have a bell, and I sort of miss it to be honest. So I've started saying "on your left" as I pass. I tend to get less negative reactions with that method, except for one particular lady who yelled "I KNOW..." haha.

    Anyway, I've allowed the negative reactions to make me a little cynical, so I find myself not calling out as much. I only do it on narrow or twisty parts of the path. Most of that path is fairly wide, so I give a wide berth as I pass and I don't call out, which I know is wrong. Seems like I'm being polite as possible, but some walkers still take my announcement as "you're in my way..." even though that's not what I intend at all.

  22. #47
    My own worst nightmare
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
    I have walked on MUPs a few times this year. I have found the following about myself.

    1) If someone dings a bell, I move to the right.
    2) If someone says "Passing," I move to the right.
    3) If someone says "Behind you," I move to the right.
    4) If someone says "On your left," I instinctively move to the left. I can't stop myself. The word "left" enters my mind, I know I need to move, so I move left.
    +1; EXACTLY what I experience aprx. 80% of the time when passing peds on a MUP. But I'd say with (2) and (3), there's also a good chance they'll move left as well. Dunno why. Seems like the bell is the one thing that gets them moving to the right. I have a bell on every bike except the roadie; I've already Fred-ified it enough with a very small squeeze horn, but haven't had a chance to test it on the whole MUP do-they-move-left-or-right question.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Skipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    I don't know many peds or other MUP users who would have a clue what "rider back" means????

    Around here peds and horses have the right of way - legally. If you hit one, then you are going to be presumed to be at fauly unless you can argue your way out of it - in a civil suit before a judge. I don't think "rider back" would make much of an impression on a judge. There is no law requiring other MUP users to know the "etiquette" of trail walking.
    You're kidding? Right?

    I call out, "Rider back". I don't expect anyone to know what that "means" any more than I would expect someone to know what "passing" or ringing a bell "means". What I would expect is that calling out "Rider back" in a sufficiently loud voice will get their attention. Once I have gotten their attention, I generally let them decide what they are going to do to facilitate my getting past them. Amazingly, most folks move to the right without another word being exchanged.

    I'm just guessing here but I think everyone knows the "meaning" of a friendly "Thank you" as I pass. And, there is no need to argue about anything in court or on the MUP.

  24. #49
    Senior Member CHAS's Avatar
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    A well-projected but not yelled "Hello" works for me on the tourist infested trails around here. A bell would only have them gaping around.
    They walk or they ride rental bikes all over the trails. The ambulances are busy on weekends.
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    I quit calling out "on your left" and instead use "Coming Through". This has worked better because the walker/walkers can make space by going where ever it is they decide to move to. My voice carries a long way for some reason and i have time to slow or stop if the need arises. Since a family with small kids and loose dog took me down in February i make sure i have time to stop. On more than one occasion i have just stopped because of loose dogs with the owners walking along with the leash in their hands. Here is SoCal the right of way is Horses, peds, cyclists. I sure don't want to meet Mr. Pavement again so i stop no matter how well i am doing. Open path, go the speed you want, busy path, slow down. I mainly ride the MUP.

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