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-   -   I'll keep my opinion to myself on this (http://www.bikeforums.net/fifty-plus-50/688653-ill-keep-my-opinion-myself.html)

cranky old dude 10-18-10 04:26 PM

I'll keep my opinion to myself on this
 
...for now anyway. Poor kid, whoever he is, and his family needs our prayers tonight!!

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...SFRONTCAROUSEL

Velo Dog 10-18-10 09:02 PM

Same thing happened here a couple of months ago, and of course there was the case of the racers (can't remember their names) killed by a sheriff's car in San Jose a year or two ago.
When I was working (newspaper reporter), I talked with some local cops about the risk of crashes. They told me what you'd expect--adrenaline, stress, help-a-buddy. I don't dismiss that, but it doesn't help if you kill somebody.
Interestingly, I thought, a veteran judge wrote me a letter after the story appeared. He said that in the 30 years he'd been on the bench, he'd seen a deterioration of "police acceptance of responsibility:" Cops tend to assume they have powers they don't--if you don't let them search your car, you're hiding something. If you get in the way of a speeding patrol car, the crash is your fault.
When I was in college, I heard sirens and looked out my apartment window just in time to see cars closing from each end of the block on a motorcycle that was running from them. When the oncoming car was 20 feet or so from the bike, the cop swerved and hit him head on. The biker died in the street. News stories the next day claimed he assaulted the officers with the bike.
His original offense: Rolling a stop sign.

xizangstan 10-18-10 09:29 PM

I think it's a huge mistake to either fight or run from the cops. And as for searching a car - if they have probable cause, they don't need your permission. That one's been up through the US Supreme Court a number of times.

Maybe the cops jumped the curb and hit the kid. Maybe not. It's probably best to wait until an investigation is done before we comment too much. I wouldn't want to be like Obama, criticizing the Cambridge Police for acting "stupidly"...

lhbernhardt 10-19-10 12:30 AM

Here in Canada, the police or RCMP have a responsibility to protect the public. So if engaging in a car chase would endanger the public, they are not allowed to chase. There's also strong public pressure to have independent civilian review panels of police irregularities. Usually it's been internal investigations that more often than not clear the cops. But after a number of instances of RCMP incompetence, the public here is getting pretty fed up.

L.

cranky old dude 10-19-10 03:40 AM

This is a very violent city and yesterday yet another innocent life was lost as an indirect result of this craziness!

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...mTHUmfT+jS0%3D

ctyler 10-19-10 04:18 AM

I used to live in Rochester 20 years ago. Lived over by Strong Hospital. Have been back for visits recently and the city has changed. It seems more violent, more dangerous. But then almost any large city is the same way.

Garilia 10-19-10 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xizangstan (Post 11643171)
I think it's a huge mistake to either fight or run from the cops. And as for searching a car - if they have probable cause, they don't need your permission. That one's been up through the US Supreme Court a number of times.

Maybe the cops jumped the curb and hit the kid. Maybe not. It's probably best to wait until an investigation is done before we comment too much. I wouldn't want to be like Obama, criticizing the Cambridge Police for acting "stupidly"...

WTF does Obama have to do with this at all?

Police said the “preliminary investigation yields that the teen darted into traffic."
Moore said the teen, whose name has not been released by police, entered the road in in the southbound lane when he was struck. The police cruiser was traveling north in the southbound lanes with its lights and sirens on, Moore said...
Witness accounts of the accident differ.
Latasha Pittman, 22, said she was on her way to work as a home health aide on the Number 7 bus, traveling north on Clinton Avenue when she saw a police car, also traveling north, move into the southbound lane to pass the bus and strike the teen, who was on his bicycle near or on the curb and not crossing the street.



Hmmmm, traveling north in the southbound lane. I can't wait to hear a report about police driving on the sidewalks, maybe they're using James Bond movies as their training films.

xizangstan 10-19-10 08:08 AM

WTF = Obama is well known for his rapid criticism of the Cambridge police department, before all the facts were known. Pretty obvious connection to this thread. I'm saying it may be best to wait and see what the facts really are, before we jump to any conclusions.

Garilia 10-19-10 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xizangstan (Post 11644488)
WTF = Obama is well known for his rapid criticism of the Cambridge police department, before all the facts were known. Pretty obvious connection to this thread. I'm saying it may be best to wait and see what the facts really are, before we jump to any conclusions.

I knew what instance you were referring to. It led to the presidential beer summit. Obvious connection to this thread? Why, because Obama is the first (or the last) person to ever state an opinion without full knowledge of the facts? Why not Colin Powell? Oh wait, maybe he did have full knowledge of the facts and still spoke falsely?

And so we can completely derail this into a political discussion that has nothing to do with the issue of police behavior and what is acceptable behavior in the pursuit of bad guys. There are absolutely some general points that can be made without knowing the full facts.

Such as the use of high speed pursuits, or traveling the wrong way in a lane (because you're passing), the use of deadly force, etc. Some will hold that the police have a thankless job and that they should be able to use any means necessary to rid us of evildoers, even if it means there is collateral damage, because to do less would be to give the bad guys the advantage.

I believe they have a thankless job, but there must be lawful limits on their actions.

Metric Man 10-19-10 08:25 AM

:popcorn

BluesDawg 10-19-10 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metric Man (Post 11644567)
:popcorn

+1

Without knowing which of conflicting descriptions of what happened is true (if any), any opinion at this point could only be based on preconceptions. Not much value in that. Might just as well make references to preconceptions on other unrelated matters.
Truly a tragedy, though.

Garilia 10-19-10 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesDawg (Post 11644750)
+1

Without knowing which of conflicting descriptions of what happened is true (if any), any opinion at this point could only be based on preconceptions. Not much value in that. Might just as well make references to preconceptions on other unrelated matters.
Truly a tragedy, though.

+1 a way to say it and stay on topic.

Garilia 10-19-10 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metric Man (Post 11644567)
:popcorn

I love this emoticon.

It's better than the tumbleweed one, because it means there's an exciting discussion taking place.

Metric Man 10-19-10 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garilia (Post 11644828)
I love this emoticon.

It's better than the tumbleweed one, because it means there's an exciting discussion taking place.

Everyone likes fireworks. ;)

AzTallRider 10-19-10 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Velo Dog (Post 11643003)
Interestingly, I thought, a veteran judge wrote me a letter after the story appeared. He said that in the 30 years he'd been on the bench, he'd seen a deterioration of "police acceptance of responsibility:"

The initial comment from police spokespeople invariably lays the blame elsewhere. Hey, that's the spokesperson's job - limit liability. Then the conflicting accounts come out (often with cell phone video), stories change, claims are filed, followed by litigation, and then the municipality pays the bill. And, unfortunately, that does nothing to truly compensate for the loss of a life.

More than one witness in this case says the kid was doing nothing wrong, and had no chance to save himself. That is what we have as a basis to comment, because the additional facts will dribble out over a long period of time, and not get the same coverage as the initial event. It will be chalked up as an "accident", just as with almost every car hitting a cyclist. The term accident isn't appropriate, as it doesn't quite cover the realities of what has generally occurred, which is that a driver has not exercised due care. It's a collision; not an "accident".

cranky old dude 10-20-10 04:00 PM

While cycling to work this afternoon an ambulance approached me from behind with lights flashing and siren wailing.

It was on a very lightly traveled residential street with curbs. The timing was such that the ambulance was going to pass me directly accross the street from a parked car. I stopped along the curb and watched him approach in my mirror. He came to almost a complete stop before gunning it and roaring past me.

I wonder if he had chills running up and down his spine too? No doubt we were both thinking of the disasterous results of the other day.

xizangstan 10-21-10 06:30 AM

I doubt they had time to think that particular incident. My guess is, they have several close calls of their own every day. Much like railroad engineers all have stories to tell of drivers pulling out across the tracks just as their train approaches a crossing. Or how about those squirrels who wait to dart out in front of us bicyclists just in front of us?

Yes, any time a kid is hurt, or worse, it's a tragedy. But I witnessed a kid being hit at high speed by a car once. I also watched as a man shoved his wife out of his car and killed her. I was a sheriff's deputy once upon a time. Stuff happens everywhere, every day.


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