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Old 03-19-11, 06:19 AM   #1
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The Traditional 50+ male - an Anachronism?

Are we 50+ guys the last of the traditional "male" generation. Has the Rise of Women Turned Men Into Boys? Agree or disagree? If you agree, do you see this reflected in the younger bicycling guys you know? How?

"Men. Who needs 'em? Colleges don't. Employers don't. Women don't. Even their own parents don't. At least, that's how it feels to a lot of guys, according to prominent social critic Kay Hymowitz's controversial new book, "Manning Up."

And those guys may be right, to an extent. Colleges have infamously lowered admission standards for males, young women in major cities earn over fifteen times more than their male peers, the number of "choice mothers" (single women who choose to have and raise a child on their own) is rapidly rising, and couples who are planning a family report a strong preference for baby girls." read more here . . .

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Old 03-19-11, 06:48 AM   #2
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The classic role of the always-dominant male no longer exists. That's a good thing in my opinion. Did the mythical American male ever exist, not in reality IMO.

I've always like strong and confident women, they can be ideal partners and are worth the extra effort.

All people need to refresh and adapt. A guy does not have to reduce his masculinity to remain relevant. He just needs to allow the opinion that it's now a level playing field. Dynamic individuals of any gender will still succeed.

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Old 03-19-11, 06:53 AM   #3
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It's gone.

Feminists made public education female-centric.

Now we need to fix some of the damage they've done.
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Old 03-19-11, 06:54 AM   #4
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Baloney!

I don't think that characterization fits my sons or sons-in-law at all. I'd love to see the basis for that "young women in major cities earn over fifteen times more than their male peers".

One of my favorite Missourians, Mark Twain, said "Figures don't lie but liars figure."
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Old 03-19-11, 07:06 AM   #5
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I participate in a large (1,300 members) forum for parent(s?) of younger children with disabilities, some profound. It is amazing to me how many of these young children - with corresponding extremely high-needs demands on a parent(s?) time and energy - are being raised by divorced/single moms. However, I don't know if this is any different from when I was much younger. I seem to remember similar things about men "leaving the scene," so to speak.
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Old 03-19-11, 09:25 AM   #6
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I read the whole (poorly written) article DF linked to about the book "Manning Up" and then did a bit of research myself. According to the U.S. Census, women earn 75.5 cents for every $1.00 men earn. That figure varies depending on the source of the information; some sources report it as 91 cents, others 45 cents. Regardless, there is no way in the world women earn fifteen times what men earn!

Secondly, I don't think the "rise of women", whatever that means, has much of anything to do with the point of the author's book. The author was describing a new generation that waits longer to marry and start a family and that men have more flexibility timewise because of biology. Big surprise.

Are women better educated, more independent, and earning better incomes than in the past? Yes. Do they want to have a family without a man? NO.
Dumb article.
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Old 03-19-11, 09:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by miss kenton View Post
I read the whole (poorly written) article DF linked to about the book "Manning Up" and then did a bit of research myself. According to the U.S. Census, women earn 75.5 cents for every $1.00 men earn. That figure varies depending on the source of the information; some sources report it as 91 cents, others 45 cents. Regardless, there is no way in the world women earn fifteen times what men earn!

Secondly, I don't think the "rise of women", whatever that means, has much of anything to do with the point of the author's book. The author was describing a new generation that waits longer to marry and start a family and that men have more flexibility timewise because of biology. Big surprise.

Are women better educated, more independent, and earning better incomes than in the past? Yes. Do they want to have a family without a man? NO.
Dumb article.
+1

I don't see much change in the range of males I know, 80+ to mid 20s.

I think someone just needs to sell a book. And they choose calling a generation of men "girly boys". That never fails to get a response.
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Old 03-19-11, 09:58 AM   #8
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My Nephew is staying with me right now for his Spring break. He is 20 and a Sophomore at Bowdoin college in Maine. His girlfriend taught him how to knit. He has been knitting himself a scarf in the evenings. The fact that he is enjoying knitting and sitting there with his knitting needles is so cute to me. I took him to the yarn store so he could choose some manly yarn. His mother, my sister, has been the main breadwinner in their family. His father was Mr. Mom all through his life, so he and his sister's sense of gender roles are practically nonexistent. My Nephew is very comfortable in his skin and NOT effeminant.

I think this is a VERY positive development for men. Men have gotten the raw end of the stick for a long, long time. The pressure to be and maintain macho status has translated to shorter lives and much more stress for men. How wonderful for men that they can do and be whatever they want now. It's about time.

America was the quintiscential masculine society and women suffered for years from that. I remember my mother being denied credit at JC Penney's even though she had a fulltime job as a reporter because she was a single Mom. She was also paid less than her male counterparts even though she had a better education. BUT, the womens movement has caused a backlash for women. Women are now expected to pull their financial weight in a relationship, so women are now experiencing the same stress that men had for decades.

In the end, the equalization of gender roles is a very positive development for America. Strong women like my sister can express themselves and men who prefer a calmer, more nurturing existence are not looked down on.

I am a nurse and have been for over 20 years. When I started in the hospital, the handful of men who were nurses were all gay. Now, on my floor here in Southern California, almost half of all RN's on my floor are male and they are not feminine in looks or attitude. That is a huge change in just a couple of decades.

So, you macho guys just picture my 20 year old Nephew with his bulging athletic body sitting quietly on the couch knitting away and you will get a sense of how much things have changed.

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Old 03-19-11, 10:08 AM   #9
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Members of one generation differ from the preceding generation. That is part of the reason we label them. You are a product of both the historical events of your childhood and how your parents raised you. You critique your own parents and vow to raise your children differently.

However, humans are humans. We do not change that much when you start looking over several generations. It all moderates out. If you want to understand what makes your kids' generation tick, look back at your own great grandparents to get a clue.
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 03-19-11, 10:09 AM   #10
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It appears to me that we're just becoming more publicly open to the wide variety of human possibilities in both men and women.
And that's a good thing.
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Old 03-19-11, 10:20 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by outwest5 View Post
My Nephew is staying with me right now for his Spring break. He is 20 and a Sophomore at Bowdoin college in Maine. His girlfriend taught him how to knit. He has been knitting himself a scarf in the evenings. The fact that he is enjoying knitting and sitting there with his knitting needles is so cute to me. I took him to the yarn store so he could choose some manly yarn. His mother, my sister, has been the main breadwinner in their family. His father was Mr. Mom all through his life, so he and his sister's sense of gender roles are practically nonexistent. My Nephew is very comfortable in his skin and NOT effeminant.

I think this is a VERY positive development for men.

I am a nurse and have been for over 20 years. When I started in the hospital, the handful of men who were nurses were all gay. Now, on my floor here in Southern California, almost half of all RN's on my floor are male and they are not feminine in looks or attitude. That is a huge change in just a couple of decades.

So, you macho guys just picture my 20 year old Nephew with his bulging athletic body sitting quietly on the couch knitting away and you will get a sense of how much things have changed.
WOW! You mention "gay" as if it is a bad thing. Somethings haven't changed at all for some people.
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Old 03-19-11, 10:31 AM   #12
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It appears to me that we're just becoming more publicly open to the wide variety of human possibilities in both men and women.
And that's a good thing.

+1
As a parent of a Mechanical Engineer, an Arcitechural Engineer, and a Grad Student of Library Science (all three girls), I must agree that cccorlew summed it up quite nicely.


and on a not so serious note......So now maybe I can stop searching for an old "Mens Cruiser" and ride the step through frame Schwinn Starlette III that's been languishing in my basement?

Last edited by cranky old dude; 03-19-11 at 12:54 PM. Reason: speling
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Old 03-19-11, 10:39 AM   #13
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Regardless, there is no way in the world women earn fifteen times what men earn!
That must be a typo or misprint. I haven't read the article but if I had to guess what the author meant to say, I think it's women earn 15% more.

Women do earn less. However the author seems to be making a point in the 13 cities selected so I think it's that.
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Old 03-19-11, 10:55 AM   #14
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outwest5 "The fact that he is enjoying knitting and sitting there with his knitting needles is so cute to me".

I'm sorry, I can't stop laughing.
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Old 03-19-11, 11:00 AM   #15
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WOW! You mention "gay" as if it is a bad thing. Somethings haven't changed at all for some people.
I don't see any negative implication in the statement. It must be your own negative perception.
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Old 03-19-11, 11:05 AM   #16
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And I believe it all started with the demise of the traditional Barber Shop, and the increased tendency for men to have their hair cut in a Beauty Parlor! It's the intentional wussification of America, if you ask me!
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Old 03-19-11, 11:18 AM   #17
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It's gone.
Feminists made public education female-centric.
Now we need to fix some of the damage they've done.
Or, you know, we could not repeat the mistakes of our fathers and accept women as equals. Generally, I've found that the only guys who worry about things being "female-centric" or fret over their masculinity are those who never were very sure of it in the first place.
What "damage" have they done? How do you plan to "fix" it? Should we beat them into submission, or keep them barefoot and pregnant, or what? Is it dangerous for them to learn to read, or could we go at least that far so they can use cookbooks and have dinner ready on time?
You need to move into the 20th century, dude.
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Old 03-19-11, 11:28 AM   #18
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Let's face it. It's been all downhill since women started shaving their pubic hair.
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Old 03-19-11, 11:34 AM   #19
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+1
As a parent of a Mechanical Engineer, an Arcitechural Engineer, and a Grad Student of Library Science (all three girls), I must agree that cccorlew sumed it up quite nicely.


and on a not so serious note......So now maybe I can stop searching for an old "Mens Cruiser" and ride the step through frame Schwinn Starlette III that's been languishing in my basement?
As long as it's not pink and green ...
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Old 03-19-11, 11:38 AM   #20
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I don't see any negative implication in the statement. It must be your own negative perception.
You couldn't possibly have any idea what my perception must be. As the mother of a wonderful, highly intelligent, independent, athletically built and loving gay son that I would lay down my life for in a heartbeat, I find the perception that a gay, male nurse would have be effeminate in "looks and attitude" or that one would need to stress that although he knits, "he is NOT effeminate" really narrow-minded. Besides, so what if he is effeminate?
Incidentally, this was published in 1973:
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Old 03-19-11, 11:38 AM   #21
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Let's face it. It's been all downhill since women started shaving their pubic hair.
I never did get that....
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Originally Posted by bragi "However, it's never a good idea to overgeneralize."
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Old 03-19-11, 11:51 AM   #22
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I haven't the foggiest idea what is meant by the phrase "traditional 50+ male". I grew up in an environment where women were in the fields like the men. Work was shared so it could get done in the time available. Some tasks, like splitting wood, were mainly male for good reason, upper body strength. Others, like operating machinery or driving truck were split. At the worker level in the factories women did assembly line work just like men. Typically they weren't as strong so they did tasks that were more akin to their physical abilities

As far as decision making was concerned by and large women allowed men to have the public leadership role while they wielded the real power. One example is the Christian church. No question the Lady's Society(by whatever name) had more to do with the functioning and growth of the church than the male clergy.

Yes, there were real barriers. But they were more Social and Economic Class than Gender. Maybe that wasn't the case in the more upper classes like lawyers, teachers, doctors, etc.

Interestingly, while sitting in a bakery/coffee shop a day ago we had a discussion with two young, college educated women in their late 20's about the roles of women and men in this society. First, they made the point, strongly made the point, that a woman had a decision to make; goal to the top of the company, or have a successful family. The economic reality is, according to them, that no one, man or woman, can have it all. The number of women in top jobs makes it clear they can be there if they wish. But, they have made the choice, with their husbands, to have a successful family and accept that their husbands will be discriminated against in the workplace. They also said that they don't believe the statistics on income.

In short: The people I grew up with were and are more concerned with what is than what isn't; effectiveness rather than fantasy; whether there is adequate food on the table than who puts it there; comptency rather than who does the work.

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Old 03-19-11, 12:08 PM   #23
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Troll thread hooked a lot of fish!
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Old 03-19-11, 12:30 PM   #24
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I thought this was interesting: What's Good About Men, as was this.
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Old 03-19-11, 12:42 PM   #25
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Troll thread hooked a lot of fish!
Gotta keep up the post count. I'm willing to play. Who knows? Maybe something really good will happen?
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