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Old 03-29-11, 01:15 AM   #1
outwest5
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Annoyed with the 25's. Want to change to 23's.

When I bought my road bike in February I asked them to put 25's on the bike. A little over 200 miles later, I am really annoyed with them.

I have had two flats- both at the valve where the reenforcement rubber splits from the rest of the tube. Both flats were spontaneous failures with the bike sitting in the room. I don't know that was caused by the tires. I think it more likely it was caused by using 700/23 tubes on a 25 tire. The tubes were overinflated causing the juncture at the valve to be weak? My guess.

I looked into getting a larger tube and they do make them that should fit without overinflation. They cost a few bucks more then the 23 tubes. I wonder how hard it will be to mount the tire with a larger tube when it is already a pain getting the slightly bulbous tire on my rims while keeping the tube up inside.

I like to take my bike places in the car or truck. In both cases I have to remove the front tire. The lbs adjusted the brakes so I can get the 25 off with a little umph and get it back on with a shove. I don't like shoving, banging the wheel and popping my hand on my carbon bike. Then I have to twist the cable and check the brake, twist the cable and check the brake and do it again. Also, the tires barely fit on the rims (Ksyrium Elite), but barely is enough. The other option is deflating the tire and reinflating it every time I get somewhere- also a pain.

I do like the feel of the 25's. I have ridden my husbands bike with his 23's and there is a noticeable difference in ride. Mine glides over small bumps in the road. His are a little jarring. The other difference I notice is his wheels (same as mine) and tires roll faster. Going up a hill, I think it might make a difference. I do have hills here. On the other hand, I like riding long distances. The 25's are very comfortable for that.

I thought about buying a bike rack for the car so I wouldn't have to remove the tire, but then I'd have to put that on and off every time.

The easiest solution is to get some 23's. I have looked at the various brands. The Serfas look good to me and have good reviews. They are reasonably priced, but the ones that are foldable all have a colored stripe on them. I would like to have black.

The one that comes the closest is the Serfas Seca Wire Bead road which is solid black, but a heavy tire at 295 grams. Two of them would add half a pound to the bike. I know a half a pound is nothing, but I paid a lot to have a 17 pound bike and I'd like to keep it that way. Here are the Serfa tires:
http://www.serfas.com/products.asp?CatID=9&SubCatID=13

FYI: The 25's I have on the bike are Michelin Pro Optimum. They do ride really nicely, but I want to get the darned wheel on and off the bike EASILY!!:
http://www.michelinbicycletire.com/m...t=optimum.view

If you have read my diatribe this far, thank you! Now:

Do any of you have a suggestion for a 23 road bike tire in black (a little white writing is okay) that is foldable (krylion bead), light weight, gives a smooth ride, not horrendously expensive, has some grip around corners and flat resistance? I want it ALL
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Old 03-29-11, 03:25 AM   #2
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Continental GP4000s

http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=Y1014

at checkout use code Spring10 and get an additional 10% off. Free shipping too.
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Old 03-29-11, 03:53 AM   #3
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Michelin Krylions.
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Old 03-29-11, 04:32 AM   #4
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Both of the above tire suggestions are very good. I ride the Conti 4000 in 25, pumped to 80#, and absolutely love the ride. And I don't get flats - well maybe one per year. Be sure you have rim tape over the valve hole, and make sure that no metal shows around the hole, which means the rim tape hole should be cut precise. And consider changing tube manufacturers.
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Old 03-29-11, 04:40 AM   #5
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I don't think your flats have anything at all to do with tire size. Just bad tubes, maybe. But if you want to try 23s, just do it. You don't even need a reason.

Vittorio Rubino Pro is another good choice.
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Old 03-29-11, 05:08 AM   #6
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I use Conti's GP 4000S on my road bikes and I buy them at PBK. I have had really good results and they last a very long time.
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Old 03-29-11, 06:12 AM   #7
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Ride what you want but:

1. Your flats are not the fault of the tube size.

2. Are you opening your brake when you take your wheel off? If not, do so.

If you are just get your LBS to adjust your brake so you can remove your wheel like you should be able to. Or learn how to preform the simple task yourself. The time you took to write you OP you could have made the adjustment if it's needed.
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Old 03-29-11, 06:13 AM   #8
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What wheels are you using? I had a similar problem with Mavic Open Pros and it didn't matter what kind of tire or tube. Basically the design of the rim allowed the tube stem to flex enough to eventually create a small tear at the base of the stem. The solution was to take a one inch square of old tube, slice a small x in it and slide it down over the stem all the way to the base. This provides enough padding that I've not had a single instance of the same type failure since.
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Old 03-29-11, 06:15 AM   #9
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Most off the shelf modern road bikes of the carbon fiber variety don't seem to be built for anything bigger than 23's. (I said most) If getting 25's on and off is a pain because of clearance that's just the way it will be.

I don't think your flats had anything to do with tire size. Sounds like bad tubes.
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Old 03-29-11, 06:15 AM   #10
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Not certain about your tube theory. Most tube sizes accommodate a range of widths. A typical lightweight Continental 700c tube will fit the following size wheels;

18mm-25mm x 700c
0.75"-1.00" x 27"

A difference of 2mm is insignificant for an inner tube. Some manufacturer's 25mm tyres are narrower than another manufacturer's 23mm tyres. Often it depends on how a particular brand engages with a particular rim.

If I were having frequent issues with punctures around the valve I would check there was no rough edge around the valve hole on the rim, check the rim tape is sitting correctly around the hole (some pvc-type rim tapes can actually cut into a tube), check the valve is unstressed in the hole when re-installing and inflating the tube (ie: sitting perpendicularly to the rim). I would also review how my pump connected to the valve. It should sit squarely with no sideways stress while inflating.

Most tyres should be refitted without the use of tyre-levers. This helps ensure the tube is sitting correctly within the tyre without nicks between the tyre and rim, folds or tugs on the valve.

I'm surprised your brakes don't release enough to permit a 25mm tyre to drop through freely. Are you using very narrow rims?

25mm tyres probably roll easier and more comfortably than 23mm tyres.

Lastly, there are some nasty cheapo tubes out there. Buy a branded type from your LBS.
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Old 03-29-11, 06:16 AM   #11
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Please send me your 25's. I will pay the postage. I love 25's. Thanks.
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Old 03-29-11, 06:25 AM   #12
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Here is the answer to your problem, 700 X 20's
http://www.amazon.com/Tufo-Elite-Roa.../dp/B001W4KRG0

And send DnvrFox the 25's
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Old 03-29-11, 06:54 AM   #13
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I think several of the posters above likely had it right with the suggestion that you have bad tubes. I use 28mm very light folders. For some reason bike shops don't usually carry the right size tubes and I've seen some very sad looking, brand new tubes. Stay with your 25s but be picky about tubes. I've adopted the practice of preinflating new tubes overnight before installing in the tire.
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Old 03-29-11, 07:37 AM   #14
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Outwest5,

You may not have a problem with your 25s, or with your tubes - What kind of pump are you using? The kind of failure/problem you describe can often be caused by improper use of a pump with a screw-on chuck (like the Lezynes have). In particular, you have to be a little careful or in tightening the chuck or you can place undue stress on the stem, thus causing a tear where the stem meets the body of the tube. If you do a search you will find many cases of people reporting this problem.
If you are using a screw-on chuck, the solution is simple - firmly grasp hold of the base of the stem when screwing the chuck on and off.
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Old 03-29-11, 08:30 AM   #15
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As BluesDawg said: Changing tires might not solve the problem. I use specialized 20-28 sized tubes with a 700x25 tire on a 19mm wide rim. Using a larger 28-32 size tube can cause the tube to fold within the tire, which will cause a flat. Going one size too small, 18-23 should not cause any problems.

I think you have a problem with a wheel or tire that is damaging your tubes. In other words, the bike shop either over-looked a problem or created a problem when it installed the 700-25 tires. Bad rim tape or a defective tire can continuously flat any tube you install.

I would get another opinion from another bike shop before spending any more money on tires or tubes.

Last edited by Barrettscv; 03-29-11 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 03-29-11, 09:14 AM   #16
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Where the flats on the same wheel? or one on the front and one on the back? If they are on the same wheel, look for a burr on the inside of the rim around the valve hole. A few seconds with some sand paper will take care of it. It also may be just a sharp edge, if so chamfering the edge will help.
Get a bike rack, there are other things that you can mess up by shoving your bike in the back seat or laying it on it's side. A trailer hitch mount can be left on the car, but you have to have a trailer hitch receiver. A trunk mount can be put on in seconds, after it is set up the first time. Much better for your bike, less stress for you.
Enjoy the ride.
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Old 03-29-11, 09:22 AM   #17
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I was using 25's until about a week ago. I'm lighter than I was, a better bike handler, and I no longer felt the need for the extra rubber. So I switched to 23's for availability, convenience, and performance. I understand your issues of getting them on and off. It's a pain. You feel like you are going to break something. You have to have the cable adjusted "just so" to have enough play to get them out but still be able to brake hard. In my case, I not only had to take the front wheel off to fit the bike in the car, but because my bike is so tall, I had to pull the seatpost. Big pain - bought a rack.

Your issue is not with the size of the tube. I used tubes for 23's with none of the issues you are having. But I did find one thing... I bought a new pump (Park Tools) so I could take my old one to work. The new pump was very hard to get off a threaded valve stem. I had to pull hard enough I feared for the tube. So I ordered a bunch of Avenir tubes with (long) threadless stems. I can get the pump on and off easily, and I don't miss the threads at all (massive understatement). I suspect that either (a) you got some bad tubes, (b) you are damaging them installing them or filling them, or (c) there is something about your rim that is causing the separation of the stem.

I'm a firm believer in making maintenance as easy as possible - it makes the riding experience so much better. Get a rack, and find the tires and tubes that minimize your maintenance effort. Many people swear by the Continental GP4000S. The S means the version with super hi-tech uber grabbing micro "black chili" particles. My experience is that these tires are every bit as flat resistant as the Continental Gatorskins. Once they start wearing thin, they can get cuts, and the cuts cause blowouts, so they aren't the longest lasting tire. But they grip enough to instill confidence in corners, ride smooth, and are pretty puncture resistant.. except against goatheads... nothing works against goatheads and also performs well.
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Old 03-29-11, 09:26 AM   #18
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I have had more than my share of tube failures at the valve also. I have gone to Giant tubes as they are made in Taiwan and not China. So far so good, but time will tell if it will make a difference.
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Old 03-29-11, 09:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agave View Post
Ride what you want but:

1. Your flats are not the fault of the tube size.

2. Are you opening your brake when you take your wheel off? If not, do so.

If you are just get your LBS to adjust your brake so you can remove your wheel like you should be able to. Or learn how to preform the simple task yourself. The time you took to write you OP you could have made the adjustment if it's needed.
That's what I think too.

On the other hand, it sounds like you think that you'll be happier with 23mm tires. That being the case, what I think doesn't matter because it's not my bike. Any problem that can be solved that easily isn't worth living with.
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Old 03-29-11, 09:38 AM   #20
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The flats were one on the front and one on the back. Both the same failure. I think it may be just bad tubes. They were the cheapest looking things I have ever seen. I looked on the Michelin website and they recommend their 700/25-32 tubes for the tires. The lbs put on 700/23 tubes. I think the flats weren't the fault of the rim or tire. Still, if I keep the 25's I will try extra padding there with a bit of tube as was suggested here. I checked the inside of the rim and it is smooth (no rim tape on Ksyrium Elite rims): http://www.mavic.com/en/product/whee.../Ksyrium-Elite

The main issue is fighting to get the wheel on and off and having to readjust the brake every time. I DID have the lbs adjust the brakes. They tried to make it super easy, but the cable will only loosen so far and the screw only has so much turning play. They did make it possible, but you have to shove and push or else inflate/deflate. I want it to just drop out. I have been taking my bike all over the place (kind of like taking a dog in the back seat). I can get 23's and change them back and forth to the 25's when I want to (like for an all day ride). I don't want to get rid of the 25's- they are nice! I want to try the 23's for ease of use.

I have been thinking about getting a rack for the car. Then you don't have to mess with the bikes at all- just pop them on there. That will probably be my next question.

I will look at your tire suggestions, thanks!
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Old 03-29-11, 10:40 AM   #21
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I checked out all the different tires recommended. I just ordered Continental Grand Prix 4000S with black chili from Amazon. They have won awards and the reviews on Amazon were almost all 5 stars with the exception of a couple that said they were hard to get on their rims, but they had different rims than I do. They were on sale right now for $38.94 with free shipping and no tax. I thought that was too good a deal to pass up. They are black with a little white writing, just like I wanted. Plus, they are from Amazon, not a third party retailer. I have had good luck with Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Continental-Gr...1417223&sr=8-1
I also ordered name brand tubes for both size tires from them. They are a few dollars more than the no name tubes.

Now I will have 25's for when I want pure comfort for long rides and 23's when I want to grab and go (fast), which is what I mostly do. I have spent a lot of money at my lbs. I think it is alright to take advantage of the Amazon sale this time.

Last edited by outwest5; 03-29-11 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 03-29-11, 10:51 AM   #22
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On the tubes-If you have the threaded valve stems with a nut for tightening to the rim-Throw the nut away.

Most tighten the nut down to hold the stem firmly in place but if you overtighten them what you will be doing is pulling the tube up into the exposed valve hole in the rim. This can cause some abrasion but at worst will give you a sharp edge of the hole to cut into the rim. I also use a thick foam rim tape instead of the thin rubber OM version that comes on most new bikes.

For this reason I try to buy the non threaded valve stem tubes- just so I am not tempted to use the nut.
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Old 03-29-11, 11:19 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outwest5 View Post
The main issue is fighting to get the wheel on and off and having to readjust the brake every time. I DID have the lbs adjust the brakes. They tried to make it super easy, but the cable will only loosen so far and the screw only has so much turning play. They did make it possible, but you have to shove and push or else inflate/deflate.
I think what Agave was asking was whether you're using the brake's quick-release levers. Just about every road brake I've had has had this feature, seen here:



Flipping that lever (or you brake's equivalent) should get you the clearance you need to get 25s past the pads. 25s aren't huge tires by any means.
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Old 03-29-11, 11:26 AM   #24
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Depending on how the cable and the barrel adjuster are set, it can be difficult to get a 25 on and off with the quick release open. In her original bike purchase thread, I asked her if she was using the quick release, and she is. That isn't the issue. On my bike (and apparently hers), I had to have the tension just right to be able to get the 25's in an out, or do as she is doing, and use the barrel adjuster in addition to the quick release.
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Old 03-29-11, 11:46 AM   #25
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Exactly, AzTallRider. I am using the quick release and it still isn't enough (I'm not dumb, sheesh). The 25 tires I have are a tad bulbous. They look good and ride well, but I am tired of messing with them. I suppose I could just ride around my house, but there are so many coolio places to ride around me I want to try them all. In another month or so I want to try Glendora Mountain Ridge Road in Glendora, but I will drive over there (about 15 minutes). It is supposed to be hard, but not impossible.
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