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Old 04-08-11, 11:34 PM   #1
Loose Chain
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I am at a loss--dogs

Last July I was attacked by two dangerous dogs and crashed resulting in a seriously broken femur and other injuries. I have at last gotten to the point I can ride again though I will never be the same. Sooo, two weeks ago, riding along, a pit bull comes out of nowhere and I stop the bike and place the bike between me and the dog. This is the only reason I was not bitten. The bike kept the dog at bay, the owner sat laughing on his tractor about 50 yards away until I Maced the dog, three times before it would quit trying to bite me. This PO the owner who then threatened me and I called the sheriff who explained to the owner of the dog his liabilities and responsibilities.

So today I take off for a ride, went a different way but a ride I have done before, out of no where a huge great dane type dog comes after me and again, I placed the bike between me and the dog while yelling down, stop, sit, stop etc as the dog repeatedly thrust his open mouth through the frame of my Surly trying to bite me at which point I Maced him which again PO the owner who came running. I again explained to him that the dog was dangerous while he insisted the dog would not bite me. I have heard that before including last July while laying in the rode with a broken leg while fending off two dangerous dogs who continued to try to bite me.

Now, I have a license to carry, for many years. I have over the years pretty much refused to carry, however, despite having the license because I believe the private citizen should depend upon the police and other authorities. But, I am now beginning to rethink this. I would have been in my rights to shoot any and all of the dogs.

Thing is, what the hell, for years no real issues with dogs and all of a sudden these huge vicious dogs. I am not afraid of normal dogs like labs and goldens and what not but man-killer dogs like pit bulls and danes and dobermans etc I am definitely afraid of them. More and more people are getting these dangerous dogs and they all say the same thing, "he is gentle and will not hurt you" and all I can say is like are you serious, the hell you say.

What do you guys do about dogs that are clearly dangerous. I guess I could quit riding. I would certainly not shoot a dog just because he ran into the road but a dog thrusting his head through my bike frame to bite me, a dog that weighs nearly as much as I do, I might shoot the XXXXX.

Should I feel guilty now for taking a ride, I don't feel like riding because I don't want the confrontation or possible circumstance where I might be tempted to carry and use a weapon if only for my defense or my wife and I am afraid of dogs now and afraid of being injured by them again. Seriously, I have nightmares were I am laying on the road again being bitten--like I was in fact.

Mace does not stop some dogs. I hit both dogs above multiple times with the Mace before stopping them at less than three feet distance. If the owner today had not comes out and gotten the dane I am pretty sure he would have come back after me as the Mace only made him back off but not stop or leave. If people insist on owning man killer dogs then maybe it is time to think differently about such things.

LC
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Old 04-08-11, 11:43 PM   #2
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Well, I think you get the award for bad dog problems. Or should I call them bad owner problems.

First thing I'd recommend is get a helmet camera so you can record the attack. Mace is good, but it sounds like you need something heavier caliber. Have you thought of some kind of net or drop cloth that could tangle the dog up or obstruct its vision. You might also try something like ammonia or a flash bang to trip the dog out of it's thought process.
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Old 04-08-11, 11:59 PM   #3
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I've tried AirZound, but it works marginally, and am thinking of removing it as I need the water bottle cage. If you are using Mace, have you considered pepper spray, R.E.I. carries a product I believe is called Bear Attack. or Bear Assault, It has been documented to stop Grizzlies. I love dogs, unless I'm on bicycle or walking.
Where in the States are you located? I used to have dog problems years ago just south of Seattle, but in recent years have had no difficulty, I think due to owners being held liable when their (gentle, wouldn't hurt a flea, pet) went wild.
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Old 04-09-11, 12:09 AM   #4
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Get a 327 magnum. practice with it, case closed for the bike chewing canines.
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Old 04-09-11, 12:44 AM   #5
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Get a 327 magnum. practice with it, case closed for the bike chewing canines.
It is a .357 Magnum, not a .327. I do have exactly that in a five shot hammerless Ruger. Ever seen Quigly Down Under? I don't need to practice and I have several to choose from. My quandary is one of the morality of shooting a dog and the wondering afterward if I really needed to or considering that maybe I am the problem somehow and all of that and the potential post dog conflict with the owner becoming dangerous. I don't know, as I said, I am at a loss on this as to the best approach and consider a gun to be something on the margin of what I would have ever considered doing as a general practice. I have spoken with the sheriff, he knows me casually and knows I have a carry permit, he told me to shoot the dog or any dog if indeed I felt in danger, it was my call.

I really do not want to escalate with the possible moral and other issues and guilt and all of that but at the same time, when is enough become enough? Could my previous encounters now cause me to over react and use deadly force when it is not needed because I am now, I hate to say it, afraid of large dogs?

I think I am going to get a new can of Mace, since this one is now expended and just see if things somehow return to some normal state. I really think that the popularity now of very large and aggressive breeds is the problem and that in years past these dogs were not so common thus my not having issues before. I don't know.

I think some people are indeed crazy, while I was laying in the road, being attacked by the dogs, the owner was yelling at me that they would not hurt me, I really don't know what is wrong with these people. She continued after the ambulance, fire rescue, sheriff and police were on scene and transported me Level 1 trauma stating that the dogs were not dangerous to the authorities. Is a femur bone sticking through my leg not evidence enough. Like what the hell.

LC

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Old 04-09-11, 12:59 AM   #6
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It is a .357 Magnum, not a .327. I do have exactly that in a five shot hammerless Ruger. Ever seen Quigly Down Under? I don't need to practice and I have several to choose from. My quandary is one of the morality of shooting a dog and the wondering afterward if I really needed to or considering that maybe I am the problem somehow and all of that and the potential post dog conflict with the owner becoming dangerous. I don't know, as I said, I am at a loss on this as to the best approach and consider a gun to be something on the margin of what I would have ever considered doing as a general practice. I have spoken with the sheriff, he knows me casually and knows I have a carry permit, he told me to shoot the dog or any dog if indeed I felt in danger, it was my call.
I'm not a dog lover. I always hope I never have to harm someone else's animal but if it's me or the dog then the dog gets it. In the UK we're not allowed to carry guns at all but anything you can find at the scene is fair game. Here we have the Dangerous Dogs Act which gives all sorts of legal definitions as to what "dangerously out of control" means - while I don't think it gives people an explicit right to terminate a dog right there and then it does provide a concrete legal framework to deal with them later.

If you just shot someone's dog for trying to bite you and the owner saw the gun the chances are they would get very PO-ed at you but given they would immediately know you had a gun and were willing to use it for your own protection it's hard to see just what they would do. For them to draw their own weapon would merely invite a firefight and the distinct possibility they would be next in your sights.

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I really do not want to escalate with the possible moral and other issues and guilt and all of that but at the same time, when is enough become enough? Could my previous encounters now cause me to over react and use deadly force when it is not needed because I am now, I hate to say it, afraid of large dogs?
IMO that doesn't matter. If a dog causes you to feel fearful for your personal safety (being reasonable here, like assuming it's running free rather than barking from behind a fence) then the owner has failed to keep it under control.

If you're going to even consider shooting at a dog then I'd make sure you've got some kind of camera so you've got a recording of the events leading up to you squeezing the trigger. At least that way if the owner does want to pursue things you can show video of yourself using the bike as a shield, the dog running at you snarling, whatever it was. If nothing else it will provide proof that you didn't just cycle up, shoot someone's dog at random and cycle off - chances are some wacko will claim you did that and they "have no idea why you shot their harmless pet that only wantd to play"
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Old 04-09-11, 04:06 AM   #7
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There is some type of spray for bear attacks that is much stronger than regular (people attack) mace. Maybe you should try that, in fact maybe you should try that on both the dogs and the owners.
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Old 04-09-11, 04:33 AM   #8
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I feel for you... we have no leash laws here either, and a dog must attack twice before the procedure for declaring it dangerous and forcing containment can be started. However, should it attack your chicken or duck, you can kill it on the spot. Insane.

Maybe have the sheriff tell the owners of the dogs you've already encountered what he told you about shooting them, and that you intend to continue riding there. Doesn't do a thing for the new encounters though. That's the frustrating part; we shouldn't have to deal with loose dogs AT ALL, they should be contained.
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Old 04-09-11, 05:08 AM   #9
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Well I am at a lose as to what to do but really feel for you, terrible situation for sure.
I am guessing there is no leash law there so reporting that would not be a option but if there is one keep reporting and maybe the owners will get the message.
I like the camera idea though so you have proof as to what happens when it does.
My first thought was to just shoot the dogs but then realized that would just cause all kinda of other issues just like you have described
Could you carry a smaller caliber gun with rubber bullets so they may not kill the dog but scare the heck out of them? I dunno, no gun expert here.

I like the response to mace the owners, I had thought of that too. (I know it is isn't really an option but still)

What ever happens I sure hope it is good for you though. Not riding would not be an option to me so I hope it is not one for you.
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Old 04-09-11, 05:26 AM   #10
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I don't like the idea of deadly force, but after what you've been through I couldn't say I'd blame you. It sounds like you need to find a more effective deterrent than the mace you've been using.

The real problem of course is with the owners. If you can get the police involved to talk to them you might have better luck. Common sense doesn't work with some people, but fear of fines sometimes will.

So what happened with the guy on the tractor when you were injured by his dogs. I assume you sued him for all your costs and then some. Yes?
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Old 04-09-11, 05:34 AM   #11
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Early april and the first gun tot'n thread. I am sure glad for the most part it has been rational.

You indeed have a lot more options before you start to carry heavy metal - many of those are already listed.
I really like the idea of the helmet cam, if this happens again you could send the video to the police and the local news the later of which would help to educate the population. A stun gun is another option if they get real close or a taser if it is legal in your state (some require you to have a fire arm liscense which you have). These are defensive weapons and clearly meant for your situation.

If I had gone through what you have it would really rattle me and cause me to rethink my riding area. I am sure you have spoken to your local animal control officer and police department, it might be time to also talk to the local government officials and media, a letter to the editor of the local paper, etc. Clearly the population of bad actors is way out of proportion in your area, you are an adult and can defend yourself (somewhat), what about somebody's 10 YO daughter getting attacked by one of these dogs as she rides her little pink bike by? You need to take some of your (well founded) rage and focus it on education before something really bad happens. That's my $0.02 anyway.

BTW - I forgot to say, so glad you have come back, I sure hope you took the dog owner from last year to court to recover some of your loss and I am so glad you did not get hurt in your two recent encounters.
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Old 04-09-11, 05:40 AM   #12
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As a dog lover, it's painful for me to say this, but some folks are getting dogs as weapons. At least that's what I'm seeing more and more of in my area. Should I honestly believe my life, or the life of a loved one, is in immediate danger, I would not hesitate to end the threat. However, I suspect several of the previous posters have hit on something worth trying. Get the bear spray and hope you won't have to use it, because you run of bad dog luck is over.
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Old 04-09-11, 05:51 AM   #13
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How about an air (BB) gun as an alternative weapon? Something like this: http://www.airgundepot.com/walther-cp99-compact.html The muzzle velocity would have to be high enough to really sting but not injure the animal. That should satisy the "moral" question you posed. I suppose the "stopping power" needed depends on the particular dog as well. Won't some breeds (i.e. pit bull) attack until death? It's not only cyclists who are at risk from killer dogs. In SC, it seems every couple of years there's a news story about some small child being mauled and killed by a pit bull. Senseless.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:02 AM   #14
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I think this is the most disturbing dog thread that I've ever read.

1. I have no doubt that you're part of the problem. Now that you admit to being afraid of certain dogs you are emitting something they can smell or sense and that's contributing to the issue. I'm not blameing you - I'm just saying that another rider might not have a problem with these same dogs. That might complicate the situation. The problem is - you can't control your feelings so that isn't going to change.

2. If I were king of the world I wouldn't blame you for taking the deadly force road but I'm not and my opinion doesn't matter. I suspect there's both a criminal issue and a civil issue involved here. Even if you win the defense may turn out to be both messy and expensive and have some unforseen and unintended consequences. I think you'd be well advised to consult a lawyer before starting to carry a gun with you. Your sheriff has his own point of view and agenda and doesn't count.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:03 AM   #15
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It is a .357 Magnum, not a .327.
Actually, there is a 327 Magnum. It is a relatively new round. It is a 32 on steroids. I believe it was developed by Federal.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:17 AM   #16
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How about an air (BB) gun as an alternative weapon? Something like this: http://www.airgundepot.com/walther-cp99-compact.html The muzzle velocity would have to be high enough to really sting but not injure the animal. That should satisy the "moral" question you posed. I suppose the "stopping power" needed depends on the particular dog as well. Won't some breeds (i.e. pit bull) attack until death? It's not only cyclists who are at risk from killer dogs. In SC, it seems every couple of years there's a news story about some small child being mauled and killed by a pit bull. Senseless.
Not a bad suggestion, but, a long time ago I shot a seagull at very close range with a bb pistol. It just kept on flying as if nothing happened. I was so close i could hear the bb hit the bird. In the next town over a few years ago a police officer shot a pit bull in the head with his .38 revolver. It was a glancing blow off the skull and did not slow the dog down. Finally, he hit the eye and stopped the dog. !!
Bear spray, and research the formula, the strength, it varies widely. I can't remember the name but I had some 17% once.. Just google Pepper spray.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:28 AM   #17
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This may sound crazy, but, toss the dog a couple of dog cookies. Even dangerous dogs can be trained if the trainer knows how to handle it. Dogs chase things that run, period. It's what they do. If you feel like investing the time if you stop and get off you're bike with the bike as a shield, you may start gettiing the dog to expect a treat every time if you do it consistently. You could eventually become more important to the dog than his owner calling him. I trained a dog that bit me to wait for me to stop and give him a treat and a pat on the head. It requires learning on the part of the rider, but it works. Get a 4 dvd set of the dog whisperer and watch all three dvd's as if it was homework. Experiment with safe dogs first. It can be done.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:28 AM   #18
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If you were to actually shoot the dog, I see all sorts of escalating scenarios that would also be a nightmare.

1. If a dog owner purposely has a "dangerous" dog on his property, I can bet you he has gun(s) in his house, and I can see this escalating to an actual gun battle. Seriously. Folks who keep dangerous dogs who aren't under control are not nice folks.

2. I can see you in court, defending yourself against "cruelty to animals" charge with the dog owner and possibly even assault and/or battery against the dog owner - and he and his family or whomever - lying in their testimony as to how you simply shot their wonderful, lovable, friendly dog who was simply going to say "hello" to you.

I think the idea of blowing the dog away with a 357 or 327 is simplistically appealing, but be sure you have thought through all the possible after scenarios before engaging in that behavior.

I like the idea of the bear spray - or perhaps some device that emits a high, ultrasonic sound that drives dogs nuts.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:35 AM   #19
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This may sound crazy, but, toss the dog a couple of dog cookies.
I like that idea, I think I will take it up a notch and go by the butcher shop and get an 8 oz New York Strip, if I don't encounter the dog on the ride I'll cook it up when I get home.
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Old 04-09-11, 06:50 AM   #20
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I like that idea, I think I will take it up a notch and go by the butcher shop and get an 8 oz New York Strip, if I don't encounter the dog on the ride I'll cook it up when I get home.
this
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Old 04-09-11, 07:00 AM   #21
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Its called ( counter assault ) http://counterassault.com/ I carry another product called Halt, however I think counter assault fits the bill a little more. Here is a youtube video of the product http://youtu.be/x9XP1iydQNY
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Old 04-09-11, 07:37 AM   #22
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The dog has its rights. The dog's owner has his rights. You're assuming you have none. That's a shame. In every state I've been in, people have at least the right (and duty) to defend themselves against a deadly attack.
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Old 04-09-11, 07:57 AM   #23
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After dog incidents, in my anger I always come up with handgun schemes. However as pointed out several times, the end games when owners are involved are mostly very bad. I continue to carry Halt instead.

In my imaginary "carry" scenario, the ideal setup I have imagined would be a lightweight revolver with specific rounds chambered in sequence: first a blank, then either birdshot or salt pellets, then real bullets. Hopefully you'd never need the third.

But again, any owner with a weaponized dog is going to assume they were all real bullets, and return fire with real bullets.

I feel for the OP, though; my incidents have never resulted in any real damage like his, and I would have a hard time cycling again after what he's gone through.
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Old 04-09-11, 08:32 AM   #24
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Bullets and carbon fibre don't mix. My vote is for poison, lovely *permanenent* poison. Potassium chloride if you want to be nice about it, colchicine if not.
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Old 04-09-11, 08:51 AM   #25
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If I shot at someone's dog regardless of scenario I'd first be looking for the owner on the porch with a rifle. No kidding. You shoot a man's dog around here and he will shoot back. If not, you best get yourself a real good lawyer. Animal rights have taken this stuff nationwide in a heartbeat.

Now, if I'm threatened and carrying I'd pop a warning round first to see the dog's reaction and to get the owner's attention. For now it's the strongest pepper spray or ammonia.

Ahhhhh 50+'ers memories.....we had a rural neighborhood bloodhound that came running for every biker and slow moving vehicle. I'd like to have a nickel for every time we tried the stick or foot method. We would come back with a car and try to door him but to no avail. Then one day we heard someone ran it over. Yeah, poetic justice.
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