Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Fifty Plus (50+) Share the victories, challenges, successes and special concerns of bicyclists 50 and older. Especially useful for those entering or reentering bicycling.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 07-12-11, 07:45 AM   #1
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Rans Rockst (Retro rocket) Rans Enduro Sport (Retro racket) Catrike 559, Merin Bear Valley (beater bike).
Posts: 26,739
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
TDF bike maintenance

I'm surprised at the number of bike mechanical issues that I see in the TDF television coverage. There are 9 riders on each team and they ride roughly 5 hours per day. That leaves 19 hours per day to do bike maintenance and each team has a couple of mechanics.

The most common thing that I see is rear brake centering issues. For some reason, I haven't seen them fiddling with front brakes. The second most common thing that I've seen is rear derailleur limit screw adjustments (while leaning out of a car at around 25 MPH).

There's obviously something that I'm missing because I'd be embarassed if I only had to maintain 9 bicycles and they still required on-the-road adjustments.
Retro Grouch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 07:52 AM   #2
2manybikes
Dog is my co-pilot
 
2manybikes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Bikes: 2 many
Posts: 15,628
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
I'm waiting for a mechanic leaning out of a car to get something caught in the spokes. Is it possible that the rear wheel adjustments are from fixing a flat by putting on a new back wheel, and starting to ride as fast as possible, adjustments after starting to ride?
2manybikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 07:59 AM   #3
jimc101
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: West Yorkshire, United Kingdom
Bikes:
Posts: 4,810
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 34 Post(s)
Front centering, not enough space to work in & it would probably result in a crash for the rider / lost fingers for the wrench, try working on the brake on a stationary bike, then think of doing it at 40Kph

Rear, new wheels after a puncture, may not be exactly centered as the previous wheel, getting bashed in the peleton

Alot of adjustments will be done after crashes, and they are riding those bikes hard, much harder than the average rider would ever would.

All those bike will be stripped and re-built at the end of the day, ready for the next day.
jimc101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 08:04 AM   #4
Retro Grouch 
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Retro Grouch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: St Peters, Missouri
Bikes: Rans Rockst (Retro rocket) Rans Enduro Sport (Retro racket) Catrike 559, Merin Bear Valley (beater bike).
Posts: 26,739
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 141 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manybikes View Post
Is it possible that the rear wheel adjustments are from fixing a flat by putting on a new back wheel, and starting to ride as fast as possible, adjustments after starting to ride?
I think that's a good guess. Rear tires are the ones that go flat most often and maybe all of the spare wheels aren't dished exactly the same. 1/2 mm might be enough to make a difference. Those riders are understandably picky so I assume they have more complaints than the folks that I typically work for. I can tell you that I wouldn't bet on my ability to keep an allen wrench seated solidly enough to adjust a centering screw while rolling along at 25 MPH.
Retro Grouch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 08:32 AM   #5
Phil_gretz
Journeyman Bike Commuter
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Bikes: '88 Fuji Saratoga, '12 Jamis Sputnik, '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '16 Motobecane Gran Premio Elite
Posts: 3,864
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 65 Post(s)
Obvious Other Benefits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
I think that's a good guess. Rear tires are the ones that go flat most often and maybe all of the spare wheels aren't dished exactly the same. 1/2 mm might be enough to make a difference. Those riders are understandably picky so I assume they have more complaints than the folks that I typically work for. I can tell you that I wouldn't bet on my ability to keep an allen wrench seated solidly enough to adjust a centering screw while rolling along at 25 MPH.
Two benefits for adjusting on the fly come to mind:

- quicker re-entry for the rider to make up for lost position/time, rather than fiddling further with the bike while stationary
- mechanic's hands impart forward force to brake bridge (or derailleur mount), allowing the rider to rest briefly while the "adjustment" is completed

PG
Phil_gretz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 08:40 AM   #6
Louis
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Bikes:
Posts: 4,866
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
It's always best to adjust something while it is "under load".

Just sayin'.
Louis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 08:51 AM   #7
KD5NRH
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Bikes:
Posts: 2,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
I can tell you that I wouldn't bet on my ability to keep an allen wrench seated solidly enough to adjust a centering screw while rolling along at 25 MPH.
That raises a question; why not use thumbscrews on the things that might need to be adjusted during the race? It's not like they aren't spending a fortune on much pricier special hardware already.
KD5NRH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 09:43 AM   #8
CACycling
Senior Member
 
CACycling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Oxnard, CA
Bikes: '08 Fuji Roubaix RC; '07 Schwinn Le Tour GS; '92 Diamond Back Ascent EX
Posts: 4,565
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KD5NRH View Post
That raises a question; why not use thumbscrews on the things that might need to be adjusted during the race? It's not like they aren't spending a fortune on much pricier special hardware already.
Thumbscrews large enough to afford enough torque to make adjustments would add tremendous weight (probably as much as a gram) which would obviously be unacceptable.
CACycling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 09:58 AM   #9
chasm54
Banned.
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Uncertain
Bikes:
Posts: 8,657
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
All the bikes are stripped down, cleaned and reassembled every night. They will all be in perfect condition at the start of each stage. But they get phenomenally hard treatment, crashes and flats are common, stuff gets bent. Personally I think the mechanics' ability to fix stuff at 50kph (to say nothingof the riders' ability to change their shoes and socks at the same speed) is little short of supernatural.
chasm54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 10:03 AM   #10
guybierhaus
Senior Member
 
guybierhaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Oley, PA
Bikes: Flat bar road bike, trail bike and MTB
Posts: 880
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CACycling View Post
Thumbscrews large enough to afford enough torque to make adjustments would add tremendous weight (probably as much as a gram) which would obviously be unacceptable.
I understand there is a minimum weight for a bike, so expect if something is a good idea and adds a few grams of weight. That weight could be taken off else where. If may be possible rider has few adjustments he can make as all he knows is to ride, not a wrench. Son in law tells me bikes may have an electro server shifting system, powered by a battery, probably shed some weight else where to allow for battery. May be next they will build in wireless adjustment. Leaving only brakes to adjust on the fly.
__________________
BierHaus Bertolette Road Bike, built 2007
BierHaus SRT Trail Bike, built 2010
Fuji Mt. Pro - 2007
guybierhaus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 10:08 AM   #11
AzTallRider 
I need speed
 
AzTallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
Posts: 5,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
I think it is a combination of factors:

A. It is really hard to get a bike "just so" on the stand. I find I need to tweak the derailleur adjustment while on a ride, especially the index adjustment (cable tension), which is easily done, just not while in the saddle. The cable tension is also something that can change over the course of a ride.

B. Trying to save time, it's easy to have a real wheel not seated exactly the same in the dropouts, causing the need for a brake adjustment.

C. Being dragged along by the car is a big boost getting back to the pack!
__________________
"If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."
AzTallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-11, 02:46 PM   #12
stapfam
Time for a change.
 
stapfam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Posts: 19,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
What you have to realise is that these bikes are the ultimate. They are lightweight in "Most" respects to the average bike and as such are a bit on the fragile side. Some of these bikes will even be one-offs for the rider. The groupset is the best available-and will also be on the light side. Then these riders are not all 160lbs and able to ride all day putting in pressure uphill or on the flat. Some of them have a lot of power in those legs and will use it.

And on the wheels- These wheels will be handbuilt. That will give a modicum of variation from wheel to wheel. I don't care how good a wheel builder is- he will not be able to build 20 wheels and have them all identical. Slight offset will be within tolerance but these bikes are set up to the ultimate. Brakes will be set up tight and if that rim is 1/2mm out- then that is all the clearance that some riders run.

And those of us lucky enough to own several bikes and spare wheels will know what care is taken if we change to the spare set on RD and brake set up. I spent hours setting up the spare rear wheel to interchange on my main bike. When I do change to them- I still find the brakes do not quite line up or after 5 miles into a ride I will have a rear cassette that is making noisy changes.

So to me if they change the wheels- then some brake or RD adjustment is acceptable. What is not is a Saddle that decides to slip for no apparant reason- or a Front DR that allows the chain to jump off the Rings. That is Poor riding or poor setup
__________________
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


Spike Milligan
stapfam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 07:34 AM   #13
Terex
Senior Member
 
Terex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Jersey - outside the bibs.
Bikes:
Posts: 3,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Watching TDF this morning. Cav flats, tire changed, he starts riding, and team car pulls alongside to do what Phil says is "Traditional rear brake adjustment". Apparently it's done, on the fly, after almost every rear wheel change. Actually does check/adjust wheel, if needed, and gives an extra push, which is always needed. They also said that the increased number of cameras in this year's tour captures more of the tire changes, etc., which go on constantly throughout the tour.

They did note, during the broadcast of the race following the rest day, that it appears that there was an unusual number of mechanicals. Again, could just be bored video feed manager focusing on these little intimate moments on a day that the scenery didn't do the HD broadcast justice.

Just like TV news programs, and any other type of revenue based entertainment, they show you what they think you'll buy.

Oh, and those "helicopter" sounds when they show an aerial view - you thought they were the actual audio feed from the copters? It's some guy sitting in the control booth, adding the effect. Just like all the little electronic "zoom zoom" sounds on Fox Sports.
Terex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 07:56 AM   #14
KD5NRH
Senior Member
 
KD5NRH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Stephenville TX
Bikes:
Posts: 2,541
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 108 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terex View Post
Oh, and those "helicopter" sounds when they show an aerial view - you thought they were the actual audio feed from the copters? It's some guy sitting in the control booth, adding the effect. Just like all the little electronic "zoom zoom" sounds on Fox Sports.
I keep wondering when they'll start using a buttload of Hexacopters with HD camera mounts. The technology is definitely there, and you can get a 3ft x 1ft remote controlled copter into a lot of places you'd be crazy to take a full size helicopter. At under $10k each fully equipped, (including GPS control and onboard collision avoidance options) they're almost disposable considering the cost of media coverage on the Tour. (Or the cost of running a full size copter for a few hours, for that matter.)
KD5NRH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 08:35 AM   #15
brumskee
Banned.
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Michigan
Bikes:
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
If I were riding the TDF I would want(need) a rear wheel/brake adjustment every few minutes so I could get the fast tow. "Take yer time fiddlin back there boys"
brumskee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 09:03 AM   #16
DGozinya
Senior Member
 
DGozinya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Chicago, IL
Bikes:
Posts: 373
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Paul and Phil also commented that some of these are merely placebo fixes to allay fears of the rider...as in "Wrench, my back wheel doesn't feel right, it must be the brake!" Wrench then leans out and "fiddles" with the drivetrain, doing basically nothing. Rider feels much better.
DGozinya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 09:21 AM   #17
NOS88
Senior Member
 
NOS88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Montgomery County, Pennsylvania
Bikes:
Posts: 6,490
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
There's obviously something that I'm missing because I'd be embarassed if I only had to maintain 9 bicycles and they still required on-the-road adjustments.
One of the other things to consider is that there is likely no one on support staff that has just a singular job. I'm guessing the mechanics have lots of other stuff on their to do list. At my LBS that head mechanic was a mechanic for a pro women's team. He said that the wrenching was the least demanding part of the job.
__________________
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking. - S. Wright
Favorite rides in the stable: Indy Fab CJ Ti - Colnago MXL - S-Works Roubaix - Habanero Team Issue - Jamis Eclipse carbon/831
NOS88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 09:25 AM   #18
Wogster
Senior Member
 
Wogster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Toronto (again) Ontario, Canada
Bikes: Norco Bushpilot (out of commission), Raleigh Delta
Posts: 6,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGozinya View Post
Paul and Phil also commented that some of these are merely placebo fixes to allay fears of the rider...as in "Wrench, my back wheel doesn't feel right, it must be the brake!" Wrench then leans out and "fiddles" with the drivetrain, doing basically nothing. Rider feels much better.
You have to wonder what happens when the wrench drops a tool or gets his fingers too close to a spinning wheel.... You would think though, that with a couple of pieces of scrap steel they could build an alignment jig for each bike, so that they could get the wheels lined up exactly the same... Kind of a U shaped thing that has a few feelers so that all of the wheel rims line up the same, actually you would just need one for the team and set all the bikes up the same. Would certainly be a lot less risky then having a mechanic leaning out a window to make an adjustment.
Wogster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 10:10 AM   #19
AzTallRider 
I need speed
 
AzTallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
Posts: 5,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wogster View Post
You would think though, that with a couple of pieces of scrap steel they could build an alignment jig for each bike, so that they could get the wheels lined up exactly the same... Kind of a U shaped thing that has a few feelers so that all of the wheel rims line up the same, actually you would just need one for the team and set all the bikes up the same. Would certainly be a lot less risky then having a mechanic leaning out a window to make an adjustment.
During an 8 second wheel change?
__________________
"If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."
AzTallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 10:19 AM   #20
AzTallRider 
I need speed
 
AzTallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
Posts: 5,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by stapfam View Post
What you have to realise is that these bikes are the ultimate. They are lightweight in "Most" respects to the average bike and as such are a bit on the fragile side. Some of these bikes will even be one-offs for the rider. The groupset is the best available-and will also be on the light side. Then these riders are not all 160lbs and able to ride all day putting in pressure uphill or on the flat. Some of them have a lot of power in those legs and will use it.
For the Tour, most of the bikes are straight off the rack. Custom layups are rare, because for CF, that means a mold, which is very expensive. Cycling is one of those sports where, if you are willing to spend the money (for SRAM Red or Shimano Di2, and for high end wheels), you can ride exactly what the pro's are riding. You do see prototypes in use (e.g., the Carbone TT wheels with rubber extensions to improve the tire/wheel junction), but those typically become available within a year or so. For Paris-Roubaix, the manufacturers will lengthen chainstays and such, but generally not for the tour. In fact, given the UCI minimum weight, you can ride a higher-performance bike than the tour riders are on. And light weight does not have to be fragile.
__________________
"If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."
AzTallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 10:30 AM   #21
BluesDawg
just keep riding
 
BluesDawg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Milledgeville, Georgia
Bikes: 2015 Specialized AWOL Comp frameset (custom build), 2015 Zukas custom road, 2014 Specialized Crave Pro 29, 2003 KHS Milano Tandem, 1986 Nishiki Cadence rigid MTB, 1980ish Fuji S-12S
Posts: 13,251
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
There are some hilarious posts in this thread.
BluesDawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 01:27 PM   #22
Wogster
Senior Member
 
Wogster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Toronto (again) Ontario, Canada
Bikes: Norco Bushpilot (out of commission), Raleigh Delta
Posts: 6,941
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
During an 8 second wheel change?
The key isn't to have variance between wheels at all, say a team has 4 riders, that means 8 bikes, minimum, with 2 sets of wheels for each so 32 wheels total. 16 Front and 16 Rear, you use a jig to make sure that the rims line up properly and the cassette is in the right place, if the wheel isn't setup properly, you adjust it, so that when you have a wheel problem, you pull the wheel off and stick another one on that is set up identical to the one you removed.
Wogster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 02:15 PM   #23
stapfam
Time for a change.
 
stapfam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 6 miles inland from the coast of Sussex, in the South East of England
Bikes: Dale MT2000. Bianchi FS920 Kona Explosif. Giant TCR C. Boreas Ignis. Pinarello Fp Uno.
Posts: 19,915
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzTallRider View Post
For the Tour, most of the bikes are straight off the rack. Custom layups are rare, because for CF, that means a mold, which is very expensive. Cycling is one of those sports where, if you are willing to spend the money (for SRAM Red or Shimano Di2, and for high end wheels), you can ride exactly what the pro's are riding. You do see prototypes in use (e.g., the Carbone TT wheels with rubber extensions to improve the tire/wheel junction), but those typically become available within a year or so. For Paris-Roubaix, the manufacturers will lengthen chainstays and such, but generally not for the tour. In fact, given the UCI minimum weight, you can ride a higher-performance bike than the tour riders are on. And light weight does not have to be fragile.
40 years ago I was a Fibre Glass Laminator making Boat hulls. The R&D department were always modifieing Moulds to find that fractionally better/ faster boat. I was part of the team that used to modify those moulds and it does not take long--Just labour and materials that will get lost in production.. The expensive part would be discarding the 24 that don't work just to find the one that does. Hence R&D never has a budget- And doesn't show on the books very often. And that 1 out of 25 that does work---Works.
And the 24 that don't work still get sold- as a Special Limited Production unit.
__________________
How long was I in the army? Five foot seven.


Spike Milligan
stapfam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 02:24 PM   #24
AzTallRider 
I need speed
 
AzTallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
Posts: 5,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wogster View Post
The key isn't to have variance between wheels at all, say a team has 4 riders, that means 8 bikes, minimum, with 2 sets of wheels for each so 32 wheels total. 16 Front and 16 Rear, you use a jig to make sure that the rims line up properly and the cassette is in the right place, if the wheel isn't setup properly, you adjust it, so that when you have a wheel problem, you pull the wheel off and stick another one on that is set up identical to the one you removed.
The point I'm making is that, even if you are putting the exact same wheel back on the bike, it can end up out of position just a touch, requiring you to either re-do it, or adjust the brakes. There are many times when, after repairing a flat, I have to loosen and retighten the wheel because it wasn't seated exactly the same in the dropout. I check it before I get going again, but, under time pressure, I suspect this can happen on the tour. You can adjust the brakes to accommodate this, without stopping again, and that is the adjustment I've sometimes seen being made from the team car... it's a hex screw on top of the caliper.
__________________
"If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."
AzTallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-13-11, 02:29 PM   #25
AzTallRider 
I need speed
 
AzTallRider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cervelo P2
Posts: 5,550
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by stapfam View Post
40 years ago I was a Fibre Glass Laminator making Boat hulls. The R&D department were always modifieing Moulds to find that fractionally better/ faster boat. I was part of the team that used to modify those moulds and it does not take long--Just labour and materials that will get lost in production..
I read somewhere that only a few riders had custom sized bikes, and that they had required new molds, which took extra time. May not be universally true.
__________________
"If you're riding less than 18 MPH up a 2% grade please tell people Coggan is coaching you."
AzTallRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:53 AM.