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  1. #1
    Retired dabbler hobkirk's Avatar
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    Testosterone & other helpful drugs...

    Are there any drugs that can be taken in moderation that help cyclists as they age without damaging their brains, organs, heart, etc.?

    I tried testosterone a few years ago (before I started cycling) and I was quite impressed by it's effects - attitude, libido, strength. Unfortunately the patches gave me a rash so I stopped taking it, but I am currently investigating a new method (pellets). Abraham Morgentaler makes a great case for it in his book Testosterone for life : recharge your vitality, sex drive, muscle mass & overall health!.

    So it seems testosterone is a good idea for me (my T is low).

    But are other options I should also consider?


    FYI, I am not competing in the Tour de France! No worry about drug tests!

    Feel free to respond privately if you are uncomfortable posting publicly.

    Thanks
    2007 Specialized Roubaix, 105 Triple
    Started cycling 6/1/2010 at 64 - lethargy, bad knees, & 247# triggered my foray into cycling
    200# as of 9/9/2012 (mostly from diet, 40# in 5 mo)
    2010 (1st 7 mo) = 4.7K miles (a little nuts), 2011 = 6K

  2. #2
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Speaking for myself, I'd be very careful about testosterone supplementation. There are suggestions that it could increase the risk of prostate cancer, for example.

    I know of no drug that will enhance performance without carrying the risk of certain side-effects. Low-dose HGH undoubtedly has benefits, but get the dosage wrong and it can cause acromegaly, enlarged heart, diabetic coma and death.

    For most cyclists, and nearly all ageing cyclists, the thing that will improve their performance on the bike AND improve their quality of life is to lose weight. If I were you I'd continue to make that a priority.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

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    no drugs,just more riding.
    Bud.

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    I have no expierence but have not heard any bad info about pellet synthetic harmone replacement therapy. It is expensive. Around here it is called HRC and is highly publicised by local radio and TV personalities. Read an article recently about how homone levels for men are rated and at 65, the medical normals is for average age of 90 year olds. If you do go with it, let us know how it goes.

  5. #5
    Humvee of bikes =Worksman Nightshade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobkirk View Post
    Are there any drugs that can be taken in moderation that help cyclists as they age without damaging their brains, organs, heart, etc.?

    I tried testosterone a few years ago (before I started cycling) and I was quite impressed by it's effects - attitude, libido, strength. Unfortunately the patches gave me a rash so I stopped taking it, but I am currently investigating a new method (pellets). Abraham Morgentaler makes a great case for it in his book Testosterone for life : recharge your vitality, sex drive, muscle mass & overall health!.

    So it seems testosterone is a good idea for me (my T is low).

    But are other options I should also consider?


    FYI, I am not competing in the Tour de France! No worry about drug tests!

    Feel free to respond privately if you are uncomfortable posting publicly.

    Thanks
    WTF??

    THIS a discussion for your doctor to field NOT a bunch of old people here!!

    Some people just amaze me.
    My preferred bicycle brand is.......WORKSMAN CYCLES
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  6. #6
    Council of the Elders billydonn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade View Post
    WTF??

    THIS a discussion for your doctor to field NOT a bunch of old people here!!

    Some people just amaze me.
    No harm in asking others about their experiences, IMO. OP will have to talk to a doc for a Rx anyway.

    There is a time to resign oneself
    to old age and infirmity. You first.
    My Cycling Blogspot

  7. #7
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    First thing is improving the nutrition. Omega 3 and Omega 7 and a good vitamin like New Chapter Mens One Daily.
    I get the Mega 7 from Swanson and the Omega 3 from New Chapter. But I will prob get the Omega 3 from Swanson
    next time because it's cheaper. I get the salmon oil type. Better for you and the environment. The salmon omegas
    are half a strong and I take one of those with a Buckthorn Omega 7 at each meal. Get a extra strength Vitamin D
    and take that as well (go through a couple of bottles to build your levels up)...

    http://www.swansonvitamins.com/SWE028/ItemDetail?n=0

    The next step is improving your diet. A weight lifter would focus on staying anabolic,
    and this is basically what you want. What that means is avoiding catabolism as much as possible.
    You do that by avoiding insulin spikes.... which means little sugar, no processed foods, low glycemic
    fruit (mostly).

    Last step is things that raise testosterone. Sex, weight lifting, lots of sleep. and avoid overtraining.

    Boxer shorts, you want to keep things cool.

    Do all that, and you won't need patches.
    Old Man Maine

  8. #8
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    Doctors are not omniscient. Always good to get as much information from various sources as possible. Of course always consider the source. There are many legit medical websites, and even more quackery on the internet. (I'd lump the previous post into the latter category, as it has been proved that exercise decreases testosterone, resistance training to a lesser degree than endurance training, and boxers are good for sperm but have nothing to do with testosterone...)
    Last edited by Looigi; 07-19-11 at 03:18 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member gcottay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    no drugs,just more riding.
    Bud.
    +1
    George
    Laissez les bon temps rouler

  10. #10
    Senior Member teachme's Avatar
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    Do the Jesus drug!!!
    Official member of the Brotherhood of Clyde...

    Lets stop diabetes! Click here: http://main.diabetes.org/site/TR/?px...nal&fr_id=8067 to donate to the Tour de Cure.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Kurt Erlenbach's Avatar
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    The trouble with testostrone (among other things) is that it can encourage the development of prostate cancer. I'd love the benefits you descibe, but the risk of prostate cancer in 10 or 20 years makes me reluctant.

  12. #12
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    no drugs,just more riding.
    Bud.
    No that simple.

    You can actually lower your testosterone.

    The first way to do it is overtraining.

    But what happens is that after 1-1.5 hours the body
    goes catabolic and that starts to set the stage for lower testosterone.

    If you are trying to increase testosterone, do one long ride a week.
    Then make the other exercise sessions not a lot longer than an hour.
    Old Man Maine

  13. #13
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    Doctors are not omniscient. Always good to get as much information from various sources as possible. Of course always consider the source. There are many legit medical websites, and even more quackery on the internet. (I'd lump the previous post into the latter category, as it has been proved that exercise decreases testosterone, resistance training to a lesser degree than endurance training, and boxers are good for sperm but have nothing to do with testosterone...)
    Thanks for the info on the boxers.

    I'd like a source on the resistance training, because that does not jibe with my experience at all.

    Just did a quick search and came up with this...

    "The T response to an acute bout of exercise was not significant but did increase in both age groups. In conclusion, the data presented here indicate that strength training can induce growth hormone and testosterone release, regardless of age, but that the elderly response does not equal that of the young."

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...47637489900997
    Last edited by late; 07-19-11 at 04:31 PM.
    Old Man Maine

  14. #14
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobkirk View Post
    Are there any drugs that can be taken in moderation that help cyclists as they age without damaging their brains, organs, heart, etc.?

    I tried testosterone a few years ago (before I started cycling) and I was quite impressed by it's effects - attitude, libido, strength. Unfortunately the patches gave me a rash so I stopped taking it, but I am currently investigating a new method (pellets). Abraham Morgentaler makes a great case for it in his book Testosterone for life : recharge your vitality, sex drive, muscle mass & overall health!.

    So it seems testosterone is a good idea for me (my T is low).

    But are other options I should also consider?


    FYI, I am not competing in the Tour de France! No worry about drug tests!

    Feel free to respond privately if you are uncomfortable posting publicly.

    Thanks
    Generally if any hormone level is abnormally low (or high), the first step is to find out why, so you need a specialist referral from your doctor to run some tests, to see if there are any problems, down there. If there are no problems, then you may find a low level booster of some kind the gets you back into the normal range, helpful. You want the smallest dose possible , to get you into the low end of normal range.

  15. #15
    Senior Member bsektzer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wogster View Post
    Generally if any hormone level is abnormally low (or high), the first step is to find out why, so you need a specialist referral from your doctor to run some tests, to see if there are any problems, down there. If there are no problems, then you may find a low level booster of some kind the gets you back into the normal range, helpful. You want the smallest dose possible , to get you into the low end of normal range.
    Problems "down there" are not the only causes of hypogonadism or even the most common. Problems "up there", like pituitary adenoma, for instance (speaking from personal experience) is one of the more common causes. So, if your testosterone level is low, get a full medical workup including talking to an endocrinologist.

    Secondly, what is listed as the low end of the normal range is ridiculously low. That value is based on studies done a long time ago that weren't well screened for people who were not "normal". Mid-normal range is a more realistic target.

  16. #16
    Retired dabbler hobkirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade View Post
    WTF??

    THIS a discussion for your doctor to field NOT a bunch of old people here!!

    Some people just amaze me.
    Yep, and some of you people just amaze me. Why would you assume I have NOT discussed this with a doctor? I've had detailed discussions with my PC physician, I got the patches from one of the best testosterone authorities in the country two years ago, and I'm currently going to Men's Health Boston, headed by Abraham Morgentaler, author of the book I cited. Fix your own personality before you fix mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by oldster View Post
    no drugs,just more riding.
    Bud.
    Quote Originally Posted by gcottay View Post
    +1
    7,500 miles isn't enough to satisfy you? Holy crap!

    Quote Originally Posted by billydonn View Post
    No harm in asking others about their experiences, IMO. OP will have to talk to a doc for a Rx anyway.
    Thanks, Billy


    Quote Originally Posted by Tony N. View Post
    I have no expierence but have not heard any bad info about pellet synthetic harmone replacement therapy. It is expensive. Around here it is called HRC and is highly publicised by local radio and TV personalities. Read an article recently about how homone levels for men are rated and at 65, the medical normals is for average age of 90 year olds. If you do go with it, let us know how it goes.

    Thanks. And I will.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kerlenbach View Post
    The trouble with testostrone (among other things) is that it can encourage the development of prostate cancer. I'd love the benefits you descibe, but the risk of prostate cancer in 10 or 20 years makes me reluctant.
    The book I cited delves into the link between Testosterone and Prostate Cancer extensively. I think finding errors in prior studies linking the two is Morgentaler's claim to fame.


    ...several suggestions about food, nutrition, dieting...

    Obesity is affected by lots of factors. It seems to me that a lot of skinny people just don't grasp the depth of the problem for fatties. Virtually nobody takes off weight and keeps it off. The issue isn't just "don't eat." Skinny people (my wife and kids) can stop before they finish a delicious burger, they bypass (or delay) desert because they are full. Fat people (me, parents, sister) find reactions like that totally alien. It's like they are speaking a different language. I don't study this subject, I'm definitely not an expert, and I don't feel "woe is me" - but my body reacts differently to food than my wife's body. That's just a fact, like I am taller. I was lucky with most the genes I inherited. I controlled my weight by LOTS of running.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wogster View Post
    Generally if any hormone level is abnormally low (or high), the first step is to find out why, so you need a specialist referral from your doctor to run some tests, to see if there are any problems, down there. If there are no problems, then you may find a low level booster of some kind the gets you back into the normal range, helpful. You want the smallest dose possible , to get you into the low end of normal range.
    T drops with age normally. And if you think (as I do) that a higher T level would help, why would I want to be at "the low end of normal range"?


    --------------------------------------------


    I was curious what reactions I would get to my post. I've cycled a lot of miles, read some, observed other riders, and know my body pretty well. I am pretty confident that T will help me, or I wouldn't be pursuing it. I had expected there would be several in this forum who had paved the way and could report what they had found. I also thought I'd get some reaction to my provocative reference to "other helpful drugs." Not a single suggestion I try banned substances, which obviously really do help pro riders, and would seem to be more likely to help old riders (pros are already incredibly fit and capable).


    Thanks, most, for your feedback.
    2007 Specialized Roubaix, 105 Triple
    Started cycling 6/1/2010 at 64 - lethargy, bad knees, & 247# triggered my foray into cycling
    200# as of 9/9/2012 (mostly from diet, 40# in 5 mo)
    2010 (1st 7 mo) = 4.7K miles (a little nuts), 2011 = 6K

  17. #17
    Senior Member zonatandem's Avatar
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    Riding lowers testosterone???
    Came home from a double century a few years ago.
    Spouse asked: 'How can you pedal 200 miless in 12 hours and still be horny?'
    True story!

  18. #18
    Senior Member Wogster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobkirk View Post

    T drops with age normally. And if you think (as I do) that a higher T level would help, why would I want to be at "the low end of normal range"?


    --------------------------------------------


    I was curious what reactions I would get to my post. I've cycled a lot of miles, read some, observed other riders, and know my body pretty well. I am pretty confident that T will help me, or I wouldn't be pursuing it. I had expected there would be several in this forum who had paved the way and could report what they had found. I also thought I'd get some reaction to my provocative reference to "other helpful drugs." Not a single suggestion I try banned substances, which obviously really do help pro riders, and would seem to be more likely to help old riders (pros are already incredibly fit and capable).


    Thanks, most, for your feedback.
    You want enough to do some good, but not enough to do some harm. The actual target level is something for your medical team to determine, it's a balancing act, but still, there are lots of times where doctors treat the symptom, rather then spend the time to figure out the underlying cause. It seems like this is what happened before, the symptom is a low T level, so they prescribe T to bring the level up. You need a referral from your family doctor, to an Endocrinologist, this is a doctor who specializes in hormones, the Endocrinologist may also want you sent to a Urologist, to check the plumbing. The big question should always be why, why is the level low, if there is a cause, then fixing that cause, may lead to a more normal level.

    As for banned substances, the jury is still out on how much they help pro-level riders, and whether the improvement is enough to offset the problems related to their use. Now there are a couple of other issues, namely your age and weight, if your weight is above normal that can be a contributing factor to performance and testosterone levels.

  19. #19
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    I wonder are there any long term(10-20 years) studies of Large numbers(10,000 or so) of men getting moderate doses (enough to boost them to high normal levels)??

    My guess is these studies are being done now-and any previous studies will be small.

    There are plenty of reports of bodybuilders having problems because of anabolic agents- but they always involve huge doses. It obviously doesn't quickly kill very many bodybuilders- most are probably in reasonable health after 10-20 years??
    If they were dropping like flies it would be obvious to everyone.

    I would give it a try if I didn't already have a prostate that barely allows me to clear my sneakers.
    Charlie

  20. #20
    Travelling hopefully chasm54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hobkirk View Post


    Obesity is affected by lots of factors. It seems to me that a lot of skinny people just don't grasp the depth of the problem for fatties. Virtually nobody takes off weight and keeps it off. The issue isn't just "don't eat." Skinny people (my wife and kids) can stop before they finish a delicious burger, they bypass (or delay) desert because they are full. Fat people (me, parents, sister) find reactions like that totally alien. It's like they are speaking a different language. I don't study this subject, I'm definitely not an expert, and I don't feel "woe is me" - but my body reacts differently to food than my wife's body. That's just a fact, like I am taller. I was lucky with most the genes I inherited. I controlled my weight by LOTS of running.
    Since you're so offended by people making assumptions about you, one might have hoped you'd pause before assuming that those who suggest you lose weight are naturally "skinny" and think the issue is "just don't eat". People have different metabolisms. But those differences account for only a tiny proportion of obesity. If you're telling me that you are genetically incapable of substituting a piece of fish for a burger, or a piece of fruit for a dessert, pardon me for laughing out loud.
    There have been many days when I haven't felt like riding, but there has never been a day when I was sorry I rode.

  21. #21
    Senior Member waynesulak's Avatar
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    While it is true that few people loose weight and keep it off permanently, I would like to point out that the percentage of people who are not overweight in the US is shrinking each year. Genetic makeup of a population does not change very quickly but our problem with obesity has skyrocketed in the last 50 years. In any one individual's case you are correct and there could be a genetic component at work, but as a society as a whole the problem is behavioral not genetic.

    Look at pictures of your parents and grandparents at various ages and compare later generations to them at like ages. I know when I do that I see each generation carrying more fat than the one preceding it. That is not the sign of a genetic problem. Genetic problems are usually associated with metabolism and other non-behavioral attributes. As far as I know, the ability to decide what to eat is a choice and is not genetic. It is what my body does with what I decide to put into your mouth that is genetic.

  22. #22
    Senior Member CHAS's Avatar
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    Some doctors are prescribing DHEA at 12 to 15 mg per day. DHEA will increase testosterone. Health store DHEA can very widely in strength.
    If you try it start with a low dose as in a 1/4 pill. It can be overdone.
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    Homophobia is so gay.

  23. #23
    Senior Member late's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHAS View Post
    Some doctors are prescribing DHEA at 12 to 15 mg per day. DHEA will increase testosterone. Health store DHEA can very widely in strength.
    If you try it start with a low dose as in a 1/4 pill. It can be overdone.
    Tried it, didn't like the way it made me feel.
    Old Man Maine

  24. #24
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    I would not take anything unless medically necessary, though Growth Hormone is supposed to help in a number of different ways without side effects. I know a doc. who injected himself with it daily for over a month, he is a serious rider, and felt a lot better.
    Unfortunately I recently tested with close to Zero Testosterone, yup close to 0.000 I started a Testosterone replacement therapy and will be on it and several hormone replacements and other competitively banned drugs the rest of my life. Feeling better already but the experience of getting where I am now was not worth it. I would rather be healthy and eating a good diet than to be trying to remember to take all my pills....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightshade View Post
    WTF??

    THIS a discussion for your doctor to field NOT a bunch of old people here!!

    Some people just amaze me.
    Aw back off he is just preparing for government run health care.

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