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Old 11-05-11, 09:52 AM   #1
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Bye Bye Bicycle Chain says Denver's Gates Corp

Now included by "over 150 bike makers."

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_19268746
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Old 11-05-11, 10:19 AM   #2
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I guess the number of gears is limited to developement of internally geared rear axles. Are multiple chain rings's designed for belts also on the horizon, or do they already exist?
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Old 11-05-11, 11:51 AM   #3
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Looks like a long uphill battle. They have tried shaft drive as well but still cassettes and chains are with us.
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Old 11-05-11, 12:03 PM   #4
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I think they need to figure out how to put the cassette on the outside of the frame. Taking apart the frame is quite the showstopper in my opinion.
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Old 11-05-11, 12:35 PM   #5
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Going to be a long, long time before they 'take over' but eventually they will have a large market share.
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Old 11-05-11, 12:57 PM   #6
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No, they won't. There is nothing wrong with the internal hub/chain combo: easy to service, cheap to replace, long-lasting, easy to adjust gearing (i.e to replace sprockets/chainrings). You also do not have to worry about the chain tension, skipping and snapping provided you have heavy duty one. What is the advantage of the belt? None of the above. Plus, you have to have a split in the frame. And what happens when the belt snaps? Well, if you missed the oncoming track, you'll be walking home (or riding in the ambulance). And for those who claim that the chains are dirty, the belts are not that clean either. And both of them can be covered with chain guards if one desires. One more thing: the chain''s efficiency is around 98%. I am pretty sure the belt's efficiency is somewhat lower. Did I forget anything?

Oh yes, the only thing that is going for the belt and/or the shaft drive is the Geek Factor (i.e. my bike is different from yours). That's why the company is 100 years old with no significant following. Airless tires also come to mind....

Last edited by rfomenko; 11-05-11 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 11-05-11, 01:02 PM   #7
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Plus chain drive is more efficient than belt drive. Belts have greater mechanical loss and lower power transmission than chain.
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Old 11-05-11, 01:03 PM   #8
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So, has anyone really ever noticed this "subtle lag in chain engagement" to be a problem? Or is your chain really so noisy as to distract you from enjoying your ride?
Really, I think they better come up with some better talking points.
For one thing, it's only suitable for OEM applications. Aftermarket conversions are pretty much out of the question without extensive frame modifications, and as big a fan as I am of modern gearhubs, I just don't see them taking over the entire market any time soon either.
Sorry Gates, I give this one a pass.
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Old 11-05-11, 01:20 PM   #9
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They can't come up with "better talking points" because there are none from the engineering perspective. So they come up with this nonsense. The truth is that the only one reason for them to exist is that their customers can explain to the rest of us what a great piece of grossly overpriced but inferior technology they are "lucky" to possess
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Old 11-05-11, 01:21 PM   #10
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So, has anyone really ever noticed this "subtle lag in chain engagement" to be a problem? Or is your chain really so noisy as to distract you from enjoying your ride?
Really, I think they better come up with some better talking points.
For one thing, it's only suitable for OEM applications. Aftermarket conversions are pretty much out of the question without extensive frame modifications, and as big a fan as I am of modern gearhubs, I just don't see them taking over the entire market any time soon either.
Sorry Gates, I give this one a pass.
Yeah, right . . . subtle lag in chain engagement. Sure. With ya on that, Dan, he's full of it. (Kinda like SOME of the stuff Grant Petersen rants about.)

Chain noise? Lets me know I need to adjust derailleurs. . . SUCH a HARD job, twist an adjuster a quarter-turn. . . .

Aftermarket fit -- POSSIBLE with the multi-link MTB designs, but still a pain. And until they can overcome the ease of use and service of the present system, they'll be sucking hind tit. (Heck, headset replacement is tougher than the entire drivetrain!)
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Old 11-05-11, 01:39 PM   #11
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I think they need to figure out how to put the cassette on the outside of the frame. Taking apart the frame is quite the showstopper in my opinion.
Or the ability to build a 30 speed IGH.... I have an idea on how, but I'll wait for someone to call me and offer some money for it....
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Old 11-05-11, 01:56 PM   #12
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Slow news day in Denver.
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Old 11-05-11, 02:01 PM   #13
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At the risk of repeating what others have said, seems to me a solution looking for a problem, and creating several along the way.

1. I've not seen any evidence re. supposed gains in efficiency.

2. Don't matter how you cut it (sorry!), a frame that 'splits' to allow belt removal/installation has an inherent weak point. I'd rather have that weak-point in an easily-replaceable part like a drive chain.

3. Limited to single-speed/internal hub gear at present; providing more gear range would require some sort of variable-ratio transmission = weight, complexity, etc. Rules out racing/'sport' applications for the foreseeable future, to my mind.

4. Touring: see (2) above for loaded touring, and also the problem of parts availability/universality for expedition touring. Sourcing a Gates belt or chainwheel/cog in the Himalayas or similar? I don't think so.

5. I recall reading this point somewhere: motorcycles don't use 'em (except maybe Harley?) ... there's a problem with stones etc. getting jammed in/on the flat surface and snapping the belt.

6. Far as I know, timing chains (quality ones) last longer than timing belts in cars. Could be wrong on that.

I can -- just -- see the attraction on a light-duty, urban commuting bike (single-speed or internally-geared), but other than that don't see where the 'growth' will occur.
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Old 11-05-11, 02:26 PM   #14
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I have a heavy Raleigh One Way cross single that I equipped with a Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub and Surly heavy duty racks. A great bike to go food shopping and getting around town. It has 1/8" chain drive that will not be wearing out any time soon....
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Old 11-05-11, 03:30 PM   #15
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Interesting marketing hype:

"Like disc brakes and full suspension technology that revolutionized biking" -- Any body riding a revolutionary road bike?

"Thirty years ago, Gates suggested its toothy rubber timing belts were tenable successors to timing chains in cars, arguing that its patented belts were stronger, longer lasting and virtually maintenance-free. Today, nearly half of all new cars sport timing belts." ---- Tell that to all the people that have had their engine destroyed when their timing belt broke. And why if they are stronger and longer lasting do they need replaced at 70,000 miles when there is no scheduled maintenance on a chain.

One of the things I make sure of when I buy a car is that it has a timing chain and not a belt.

The above is what disgusts me about marketeers. The statement is probably true. 30 years ago Gates probably did suggest those things and make those arguments. But they don't tell you that they turned out to be wrong and leave you to believe timing belts are stronger, last longer and require less maintenance than timing chains.
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Old 11-05-11, 04:27 PM   #16
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I have little to add to the skeptics' responses -- I concur entirely.
1) The roller chain is reliable, efficient, lightweight, and versatile. I love my derailleur gears, and I have enjoyed riding a hybrid transmission, a 14-16-18-20 1/8" cogset on a standard AW Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub.
2) The big current trend in automotive engines is away from timing belts and back to chains, precisely because almost every engine made today is of the "interference" type, in which the pistons at TDC will hit the valves if any are more than a tiny bit open.

The one-and-only argument in favor of a belt over a chain is corrosion, but salt air is probably hard on rubber, as well. Also, various cleaners and lubricants tend to degrade rubber, as does good old acid rain or photochemical smog.

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Except for my daughter-in-law's 2005 4-cylinder Toyota Camry, every car in our family has a timing belt, and we change them on a 7-year / 70K mi interval. [My elder son and I recently did a water pump and timing belt job on his 2002 Audi A4 1.8T; we'll do the same on my wife's 2001 VW Passat wagon while we still remember how to do the job in less than 5 hours. My 1996 Audi A4 2.8 is about due again, as well. On YouTube we found a great video of a guy doing an Audi timing belt job, including the radiator/headlight assembly "nose pull." He shot it at about 1 frame/min., which makes a very fast-moving 5-min. sequence when played back at normal video rates.]
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Old 11-05-11, 05:42 PM   #17
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as I read that article this morning, I wondered if I should post here on it , but I thought "no , Denver will take care of that"....I was correct...(does not happen very often ,these days)
Bud...
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Old 11-05-11, 06:00 PM   #18
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as I read that article this morning, I wondered if I should post here on it , but I thought "no , Denver will take care of that"....I was correct...(does not happen very often ,these days)
Bud...
That's sort of scary!!
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Old 11-05-11, 06:06 PM   #19
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Once again, I am reminded of one of my grandfather's favorite sayings: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Why replace the chain? Why replace something that has worked for more than 100 years? Since it is limited to single speeds and internal hub systems, roadies will never go for it. How is that belt affected by severe cold and road salt, common nasties that those of us in the northeast have to deal with.

Sorry, but to replace something that has worked for more than 100 years, it will have to be a real improvement over whatever it is that is being replaced.
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Old 11-05-11, 06:09 PM   #20
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Also, do a price compari$on.
When/if they can get the cost of their belt down to 30 bucks they'll continue to be a niche item.
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Old 11-05-11, 06:24 PM   #21
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That's sort of scary!!
denver, please consider it a compliment,,,(it is)
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Old 11-05-11, 08:02 PM   #22
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I have little to add to the skeptics' responses -- I concur entirely.
1) The roller chain is reliable, efficient, lightweight, and versatile. I love my derailleur gears, and I have enjoyed riding a hybrid transmission, a 14-16-18-20 1/8" cogset on a standard AW Sturmey-Archer 3-speed hub.
2) The big current trend in automotive engines is away from timing belts and back to chains, precisely because almost every engine made today is of the "interference" type, in which the pistons at TDC will hit the valves if any are more than a tiny bit open.

The one-and-only argument in favor of a belt over a chain is corrosion, but salt air is probably hard on rubber, as well. Also, various cleaners and lubricants tend to degrade rubber, as does good old acid rain or photochemical smog.

___
Except for my daughter-in-law's 2005 4-cylinder Toyota Camry, every car in our family has a timing belt, and we change them on a 7-year / 70K mi interval. [My elder son and I recently did a water pump and timing belt job on his 2002 Audi A4 1.8T; we'll do the same on my wife's 2001 VW Passat wagon while we still remember how to do the job in less than 5 hours. My 1996 Audi A4 2.8 is about due again, as well. On YouTube we found a great video of a guy doing an Audi timing belt job, including the radiator/headlight assembly "nose pull." He shot it at about 1 frame/min., which makes a very fast-moving 5-min. sequence when played back at normal video rates.]
I think that car companies are moving back to timing chains because of cost. say you have 10 different model engines and each one needs a slightly different length belt/chain, that means you have 10 different belts that you need to order and keep in inventory. Now suppose you use a chain, you order a few rolls of bulk chain. Now you have a guy in the factory, who runs a machine that measures out the right number of links, pushes out the pin, makes it into a circle and pushes the pin back in, the guy takes the chains out of the machine and puts them in the next engine down the line and moves on. When they switch to a different engine, he keys in which engine is being made next and the machine makes the next length of chain. When it reaches the end of the roll, they put on the next roll, push in the end pin and the machine doesn't even stop running.

This is going to be an issue for bicycle companies as well, they can order chain in massive lengths, and cut it as needed, belts need to be maintained in inventory.... The key on inventory is cost, suppose the belt costs 3 cents more, that's not an issue when your dealing with a single unit, now suppose you make 25,000,000 bicycles, now that 3 cents translates into $750,000 which is a serious hunk of coin...
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Old 11-05-11, 11:04 PM   #23
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When I was in business I had delivery trucks. Timing belts were replaced at 70,000 miles to eliminate worry of buying expensive engine parts like pistons. The rigs with timing chains routinely ran upward of 250,000 miles before we even thought about timing chain. Usually when Drivers Report said something like "... funny noise in engine."
I rest my case....
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Old 11-05-11, 11:26 PM   #24
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When I rode motorcycles, they were all chain driven, including the primary. Belt drives were "a solution in search of a problem" when they first started to show up - I gather that they are now are ubiquitous. I don't know for sure, I haven't ridden a motorcycle in a very long time.

My next bike will very likely had a belt drive and a internally geared hub.

Do I think that a belt drive bike with an internally geared hub is a good choice for everyone? No.

Do I think that a belt drive bike with an internally geared hub is a good choice for a lot of people (including me)? Yes.

If you can live with 11 or 14 gears, keeping gears in a sealed oil bath makes a lot of sense to me than sticking them in the weather.

Once you have decided to go with an IGH bike, I don't see much reason to go with a chain as opposed to a belt. Most reviewers who have ridden belt bikes claim that they are quieter and cleaner. I expect that's true. It also appears that the Gates Center Track belts seems to have solved a number of problems with the previous generation.

All in all, "Bye Bye Bicycle Chain" seems like a silly headline to me.

But I am very glad to have the choice, and right now I am happy and prepared to pay a premium for that choice.

Over time, I expect belts to become more and more common on bikes. I think that the limiting factor is probably the development of better and better internally geared hubs, and that seems to be going on at a rapid pace.

If finances go according to plan, there will be one of these in my future:

http://beltbik.es/civia-cycles/2012/bryant-belt-alfine
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Old 11-06-11, 05:54 AM   #25
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When I rode motorcycles, they were all chain driven, including the primary. Belt drives were "a solution in search of a problem" when they first started to show up - I gather that they are now are ubiquitous. I don't know for sure, I haven't ridden a motorcycle in a very long time.

My next bike will very likely had a belt drive and a internally geared hub.

Do I think that a belt drive bike with an internally geared hub is a good choice for everyone? No.

Do I think that a belt drive bike with an internally geared hub is a good choice for a lot of people (including me)? Yes.

If you can live with 11 or 14 gears, keeping gears in a sealed oil bath makes a lot of sense to me than sticking them in the weather.

Once you have decided to go with an IGH bike, I don't see much reason to go with a chain as opposed to a belt. Most reviewers who have ridden belt bikes claim that they are quieter and cleaner. I expect that's true. It also appears that the Gates Center Track belts seems to have solved a number of problems with the previous generation.

All in all, "Bye Bye Bicycle Chain" seems like a silly headline to me.

But I am very glad to have the choice, and right now I am happy and prepared to pay a premium for that choice.

Over time, I expect belts to become more and more common on bikes. I think that the limiting factor is probably the development of better and better internally geared hubs, and that seems to be going on at a rapid pace.

If finances go according to plan, there will be one of these in my future:

http://beltbik.es/civia-cycles/2012/bryant-belt-alfine
The Civia is a very nice bike, with very favorable reviews, and if I were ever to look at an OEM bike, I would certainly consider it, belt and all.
I have a whole fleet of IGH bikes, from 2 to 14 speeds, and I love them all, but I built every one of them from the ground up from new or previously loved frames, and belts are just not an option in that case.
My point is, there ain't as much wrong with chains as Gates wants you to believe, and they ain't going away.
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