billydonn

NOS88:
Wondering what "was really going on" sure seems to me to lead almost inevitably to a discussion of police procedure and civil liberties. Just sayin...

NOS88

I've worked in federal correctional facilities and done physical restraint training for different police departments. I have some insight into the procedures and methods law enforcement uses. What took place this morning makes we wonder. I'm just curious about why he stopped me. Were they looking for something/someone for which I matched the profile? Was he just curious about bike commuting; was he bored? I mean there are probably hundreds of reasons. But, given they no longer require bicycle permits; I know his stated reason was not it. No matter. I'll try to keep my curiosity to myself in the future.

Dudelsack 

Sometimes the police do weird things.

On my St. Patrick's Populaire I had the crap scared out of me when a police car pulled up to me as I was riding along. The trooper pulled down his window and said, "Please be careful on this road in that vehicle of yours (my recumbent)".

I was very annoyed, as the only time I was frightened the entire trip was with this incident, but I presumed he meant well and let it drop, even though I thought it was a dumb thing to do.

He did not ask for my ID, which, by the way, was on me.

bicyclridr4life

Still have to have probable cause normally to stop someone. Being a cop does not put you above the law.

jmccain

That's the norm in my world.

CrankyFranky

The SRT and the run up to Valley Forge are what I missed most when I moved away from Philly (didn't miss the neighborhood murders). There were a few trail parts that to me were a bit iffy at certain times.

Fortunately for me, I never looked as if I lived anywhere along the trail to either the locals or the constabulary. Yours was a weird encounter, but at least it remained civil.

billydonn

No offense meant... I wasn't suggesting that at all. It's an interesting event. My guess is that something was up that they did not tell you about when you were stopped.

Hendo252 

Obviously you aren't from California, where Public Safety folks are very, very highly paid, have retirement plans that are grotesquely rich, and rules that allow 99.9% of them to leave on "disability" retirement by age 40.

Ask any bike shop who buys the big-bucks bikes -- they'll all tell you retired government employees.

My $0.02

2manybikes

They were looking for someone. Does not seem strange to me. They were looking for a local, that's probably why the strange question. It might make you obviously nervous, or trip you up if you were lying to them about where you live.
It also does help them to know who people are. One never knows what will happen, and with who. It is part of being prepared. It's very sensible.

DX-MAN

I LIKE it when I get asked questions like that, and get comments like that; my answer would have been, IMMEDIATELY: "I KNEW I shouldn't have gotten this haircut!"

It's why it happens so rarely; I look forward to F'n with those who F with me.

AlexZ

Saw a guy sitting in the wash under a bridge playing a tuba this morning! First thought was ; better than next door to me! Although I think bagpipes might be worse....

Gravity Aided

One of my neighbors 4 doors down from me could be heard, quite readily, from my house . I would have thought my dogs would have barked, but they just listened quietly . He took to using a practice chanter , then moved to the countryside, I believe . I never saw the bagpipes as objectionable , myself .

rumrunn6

reminds me of a work task. we have annual contracts with session dates. everyone renews and most of them sign off on their dates but they do it so far in advance they forget their date. some are good though and mark it on their calendar. I have to email everyone with a friendly reminder what their date is but I can make subjective decisions as to who doesn't need a reminder. I don't always make the right decision. meaning some people feel like I'm overly cautious by checking in with them. however not confirming a date could lead to a big problem on their date if we show up and they aren't expecting us. I'd rather not have to checking with everyone, and I actually don't have to, but I'd hate to miss anyone that should have been checked.

also I guess I'm a suspicious looking person cuz sometimes I get followed at big box stores by undercover security like I'm a thief or something.

cops gotta do what they gotta do. they do the best they can, it's a tough job. just being a cop doesn't mean they aren't a-holes, or inadequate. they're a necessity.

yes sir, no sir, thank you sir, have a good day sir. that's my motto

VNA

If you are going to post a "bizarre" or controversial event expect reactions and widely divergent reactions from what you would expect!

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, perspectives and perceptions, even derogatory, accusatory or negative ones.

That is what makes an interesting, animated forum.

NOS88

Thanks for giving me a clue.

jon c. 

I never carry ID when I ride and would indeed be offended were I randomly stopped and asked for it. I appreciate that police have a difficult job but that does not excuse infringing on the liberty of a free citizenry. It is perhaps only a minor inconvenience and we might assume it is being done with good intentions, but nonetheless when we cede to the State the right and power to have armed agents stop us at any time and interrogate us regarding our identity and activity we have lost the very essence of freedom.

In such case I would, of course, keep my feelings to myself and respond politely to any inquiries. In part because I am by nature a polite person, but in part as well because I know that if one espouses an unpopular socio-political viewpoint to police, one has a well founded fear that some form of retribution may follow. We all know this to be true. We learn it from an early age. That alone should give us pause to consider our relationship with these representatives of the government in our free society.

Whiteknight

NOS88,

I read this thread yesterday before checking the Pennsylvania Unified Judicial System web site where PA court rulings are posted as they are handed down. A god one went up on the 26th out of the Middle District of the Supreme Court Of Pennsylvania. Involved suppression of evidence. Commonwealth of PA v. John D. Au.
An lengthy discussion of what is a "mere encounter" versus investigative detention.

In PA a police officer does not need reasonable suspicion to stop a citizen and request identification. They can do so on a mere whim if they want to.

"We have stated that even when officers have no basis for suspecting a particular individual, they may generally ask questions of that individual [and] ask to examine the individual's identification[.]" United States V. Hicks

In the past. Around here. If a police officer stopped me and asked me for ID I would show it. I would then ask the officer if I was free to leave. That lights them up. If they say that you may not leave it becomes an investigative detention without cause.

I have watched our local police operate in dealing with people they do not know on the street. Most will try to push you on the question and answer thing. But if you give them any idea that you know the "Terry Stop" rules they back off in a hurry.
There was an incident in this block several weeks ago where a police squad of 4 officers stopped and asked a neighbor for ID as he was entering his home early one morning. He had come home sick at 1:15 am. The cop gave him a very bad time and humiliated him for no reason. There were several witnesses to the incident. We banded together and complained to the police chief. The 4 cops were fed to internal affairs. Other officers commented to me that it was a sad incident. This is one of the few blocks in the city where they know they are welcome and that their backs are covered if here on a call.

But there are cops on every force that are little more than "knuckleheads". This was how one officer described the officer involved in the recent incident a few doors from me. Some officers are overly aggressive in their tactics. Some get an ego kick out of flaunting their authority. That is what gets them in trouble on stops of civilians in this Terry Stop process. As soon as they start pushing their authority a mere encounter almost automatically becomes an investigative detention.

E. Ogre

on the path

Ok, very good. However, the other half of the equation is not addressed by this statement.

If there is "no basis for suspecting a particular individual", is that particular individual obligated to answer said questions? And more so, is the individual obligated to carry identification to be examined?

For the record, quite often I go for rides of 30 minutes to 2 hours or more, by myself, and cover anywhere from 10 to 40 miles. I don't need a license to operate my vehicle and my vehicle does not require licensing or insurance. I do not carry, or need to carry identification when i ride.

Bikey Mikey

I carry identification not in case I am stopped by police, but so it will speak for me if I'm in an accident or something happens where I can't respond.

TheHen

I admit that I am inclined to cut cops some slack, although that hasn't always been the case. He can legally stop you and ask for ID. He also can legally lie to you. He did both, although he may not have known about the change in the local ordinance. Nothing to see here, really. Personally, I would be pleased that he has taken the time to patrol the bike path.

About a decade ago, my spouse was working for a small company that held a holiday party in December about 130 miles from where we were living. I was out of town so he went by himself. He drove a ratty old pick-up. As he was returning home, a state trooper pulled a neat u-turn on a two lane highway to get behind him. Sure enough, as they approached the only parking lot for thirty miles the trooper pulled him over. After checking the registration and my spouse's ID, the trooper apologized for making up the story about not being able to see the registration sticker on the plate and admitted that he made the stop because in his experience a lot of meth is distributed in old pick-ups. Again, no harm done. My spouse thanked him for his efforts and they both went on their way.

Whiteknight

From what I have been able to learn from some of these court rulings is that if a police officer asks for identification you need only give your name. You may have to stand and wait while they run it through their computer. Around here that is usually done to check for outstanding warrants. If the officer can not verify you through the computer they could possibly hold you until proof of who you are comes up. Which is why a photo ID card is unquestionable the best approach for such things.
From what I understand of it you do not have to answer any questions regarding what you are doing at the time. If the officer pushes the issue he is on the edge of investigative detention. Under PA court rulings the thing about a mere encounter is that you must be able to feel that you are free to go at anytime. As soon as the officer does anything that would in any way block your ability to walk away he is again bordering on investigative detention.

Trouble is that if a police officer does push his authority and question you there is little you can do if he does not arrest you for anything. He is essentially violating the law but there is little you can do about it in the absence of any harm to you in any form.

I always carry an ID card of some sorts. Simply in case I am in some sort of accident while out riding alone. As Bikey Mikey also explains. If you were to be taken into a hospital unconscious the lack of any ID could be a problem when it comes to treatment.

on the path

I do understand that and don't think it's a bad idea at all. I've got emergency numbers in my cell phone that are easy to find. I always have my phone with me. I'm also thinking of carrying a health insurance card with me.

trackhub

An interesting encounter, to say the least. I have two questions:

What exactly is a "Bike Permit", and is it an actual requirement in the given area?

What did the officer mean by the comment "that I looked like I live there"?

AlexZ

I agree with all of the above!!!
It's no wonder Calif economy is in the crapper! And to top it off these people (govt. employees) have a culture of entitlement!

oilman_15106

You are welcome to stay in Taxalfornia. By the way "american" should begin with a capital A.

Well known fact that it is every cop's dream to give a ticket to a cyclist.