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  1. #1
    Banned. DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles after ending defense

    Last edited by DnvrFox; 08-23-12 at 10:08 PM.

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    This is sad either way. Either he is innocent and just giving up, as he claims or is guilty but still in denial. Will the sport be better off or worse off with this news?

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    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    It all comes down to how long do you want to fight? After a while it simply is no longer worth it. Times have changed and proof is no longer necessary only accustion. If it would have been me I would have stopped responding years ago and let them do what they wanted. It isn't worth the fight when it starts costing money to defend. But there is no real consistancy in sports anymore. Castor Semenya get to run as a woman when she has mens parts and the DNA test is simple. http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runnin...emale_runn.php we had a surgically altered person running for miss Universe, http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/470050...sgender-women/ and someone that never failed a test is hounded out of cycling? Different world we live in. It wouldn't have mattered if Lance beat the charges a differnt agency would simply be waiting in the wings to start all over again.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dalameda View Post
    This is sad either way. Either he is innocent and just giving up, as he claims or is guilty but still in denial. Will the sport be better off or worse off with this news?
    True, with their reasoning they could go back and Merckx Tested positive in the Giro once, Anquetil all but admitted to using drugs so they could take their wins away. And in Merckx's case it tested positive one more time than Lance. And they are letting Contidore race again after being banned for a year. They need consistancy rather than witch hunts. I believe it was Anquetil that once said the worst thing about being accused of taking drugs is you "can't" prove you didn't and once accused there will always be a shadow on your win. Truth.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  5. #5
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    I can't make a judgement whether Lance Armstrong is guilty. I hope he isn't, and I would like to think that this is a bad decision. I also hope this action takes away incentives for others to cheat.

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    If you stand out at all you attract the attention of people who don't like that. If he is innocent (and my impressions are that he is) I can also understand getting tired of arguing about it, and just walking away.

    I'd think that he'd flunk at least one drug test if he was taking them long enough to win that many tours.
    mainlytext.com/bike.html Bicycling in winter, the entertainment version

  7. #7
    VNA
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    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/sp...s.html?_r=1&hp

    If he were innocent I would think he would fight better--I think!

    There are several incidents (tests) which confirm the use of banned substances!

    It is sad for everyone involved!

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    Senior Member GrandaddyBiker's Avatar
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    So what happens to those seven races? Does the one with the green Jersey become the new winner of that race? Without proof of doping the new winner will never know if he won because he was a better rider or if he won because of Armstrong’s misfortune.

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    Uber Goober StephenH's Avatar
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    Well, what does that say about all the testing they've ever done? Was it useless or what?

    I suppose that when it's all said and done, entering pro racing and is sort of like going into pro wrestling, there's a lot of stuff that's not right, and if you're too honest, you go drive a truck or something.
    "be careful this rando stuff is addictive and dan's the 'pusher'."

  10. #10
    Senior Member MinnMan's Avatar
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    I agree with Lance in one respect - I"m sick of hearing about it. I know all of you have very strong opinions one way or the other. I sort of don't. I don't know who has doped (maybe all of them?) and how much it matters. I kind of like that the race times are going down, suggesting that the peloton is, on average, cleaner than it used to be. But it seems that the sport is never going to erase the stain completely, and so I stick my head in the sand and try to enjoy the race without thinking too much about this stuff.

  11. #11
    Geck, wo ist mein Fahrrad Rx Rider's Avatar
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    well, this will give Lance more time to hangout with his good buddy Dr. Ferrari. just like in the good ol' days. I always thought he was a cheater, but I hoped I would never call him a quitter.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
    I agree with Lance in one respect - I"m sick of hearing about it. I know all of you have very strong opinions one way or the other. I sort of don't. I don't know who has doped (maybe all of them?) and how much it matters. I kind of like that the race times are going down, suggesting that the peloton is, on average, cleaner than it used to be. But it seems that the sport is never going to erase the stain completely, and so I stick my head in the sand and try to enjoy the race without thinking too much about this stuff.
    You are right. We can't refight the battle or judge the case. But nothing will change. Bradley Wiggins was accused of doping during this years TDF. http://www.bicycling.com/tour-de-fra...ve-worked-hard And later he was warned by his doctors not to release his medical data because he was "too normal" and some would say only drugs could cover spikes. http://article.wn.com/view/2012/07/1...blood_data_un/
    You simply can't win.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

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    I personally can't understand how he could stop fighting, if he is indeed innocent. We're all going to die. What's left? ..............only questions for Lance.

  14. #14
    Senior Member MinnMan's Avatar
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    I personally am paying more attention to the fact that Froome is at the moment in second place in the Vuelta.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Mobile 155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DScience View Post
    I personally can't understand how he could stop fighting, if he is indeed innocent. We're all going to die. What's left? ..............only questions for Lance.

    Really? The accusers aren't spending any of their own money and so they have no reason to give up. Lance is spending his own money and his lawyers would be more than willing to keep charging him if he wants. There is another agency sitting behind this one in case they lost even if this agency doesn't have jurisdiction over French racing. Giving up is the least expensive route at this point. He is no longer racing and they can't fine him any money, only the organization that awarded him any prize money could but the statute may have passed. so they get to say whatever they want and go look for Big Foot somewhere else. People that were caught doping and offered to say Lance did drugs were given a pass and are now as we speak and will still be racing. So the USADA now has known racers having used banned substances racing with immunity unless they are caught later on. However that doesn't preclude the French, Italians and Spanish from giving them extra attention when the race on their shores under their rules. Nothing will change and whoever gets the Yellow for the years Lance rode will always have question mark after their name. Think of how that will effect the team standings for those years as well.

    But it is over and now things can move forward.
    Life is like riding a bicycle - in order to keep your balance, you must keep moving. ~Albert Einstein.

  16. #16
    Senior Member oldbobcat's Avatar
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    I see Lance presented the cancer survivor defense to the press again. I always liked that about him.

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    The Melky Cabreraa thing puts things in perspective for me.Someone who barely hit 280 becomes a superstar!Thus the power and falseness of PEDs.Is he really special?

  18. #18
    Geck, wo ist mein Fahrrad Rx Rider's Avatar
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    now we need to find out about that Olympic speed-walking blood-doper what's up with that?

  19. #19
    Time for a change. stapfam's Avatar
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    I am neither for -or- against Lance but I can side with him in that there just comes a point where you have had enough and give up. Here is an athlete that has excelled in his sport for many years and has upset a few people on the way. I do not know about the "Drug" issue but he is probably one of the most tested athletes around. None of the tests have proved positive- or if they were it was not officially recognised.

    To come back years later and "Accuse" him of a problem that was not there in the first place sounds like sour grapes to me. He may have taken drugs- but they were not detected by the testing done at that time for the Known drugs of that time. I dare say that some of the current more technical tests will pick up traces of some banned substance but were they a banned substance at the time or was it at a level that could have could have aided his performance?

    I am not saying he is innocent or "He must have taken something because he was so good".

    Just sounds like a witch hunt to me.
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  20. #20
    Senior Member bruce19's Avatar
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    It will be interesting to see what happens when the ICU challenges this USADA ruling. Hopefully it will decide if the USADA has any jurisdiction in international cycling and, if the specific charges are addressed, if the evidence used by USADA has any validity.

  21. #21
    Senior Member bruce19's Avatar
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    Just saw Peter Flax of Bicycling Magazine on CBS news. He said he is convinced that Armstrong was doping. He also said that the USADA process is unfair to athletes. In his opinion Armstrong took the best of the bad choices presented to him. That's kind of the way I see it too.

  22. #22
    Senior Member donheff's Avatar
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    I am with Stapfam. He may be guilty but he never failed a test. To come after him years later on the testimony of rats is a witch hunt. And if the rats are right, whoever picks up his medals will likely have been guilty of the same thing.
    Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson

  23. #23
    Senior Member bruce19's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by donheff View Post
    I am with Stapfam. He may be guilty but he never failed a test. To come after him years later on the testimony of rats is a witch hunt. And if the rats are right, whoever picks up his medals will likely have been guilty of the same thing.
    "Testimony of rats?" What if the "rats" are actually telling the truth? Flax also made the point you make about anyone else who is "assigned" the victories. FWIW I agree with both of you.

  24. #24
    Si Senior dbg's Avatar
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    It bugs me a little bit. Everyone looks to get every advantage they can. If testing looks for certain levels, then one might argue staying just below that level is an interpretation of what's legal.

    And the abandonment of any formal rules of evidence?? Hear-say from admitted cheaters seems a little thin.

    I suspect he played the "don't ever fail a test" game while using every advantage allowing him to stay just under the radar. Seems like that's the game they are encouraged to play.

    And what's next? Some can afford more scientific training methods (wind tunnels, body function analysis, etc). Shouldn't that be banned since it is unfair to those who don't have access? What about carb loading? Barometric chambers?
    David Green, Naperville, IL USA "The older I get, the better I used to be" --Lee Trevino

  25. #25
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce19 View Post
    It will be interesting to see what happens when the ICU challenges this USADA ruling. Hopefully it will decide if the USADA has any jurisdiction in international cycling and, if the specific charges are addressed, if the evidence used by USADA has any validity.
    I do not see how the USADA can tell other agencies how to run their operation. Perhap it is based on the same arrogance that has driven their attacks and persecution of Armstrong. In any event, we know who won those 7 tours -- nobody can change that with a an edict...

    But, it is clear that USADA is going to keep attacking until they can claim victory. And, as somebody else pointed out: they are using our money to do it with. They have nothing to lose. But, if they win, they can claim bragging rights. That is very clear from their response to Armstrong's saying he will stop fighting them while continuing to claim his innocence while pointing out he never failed a drug test: the USADA immeditately claimed he had admitted his guilt. That is certainly a lie that casts doubt on all of their claims against him

    So, why should Armstrong continue to fight them? it is clear that they are determined to be able to claim victory over him and they have virtually unlimited resources to continue their fight. At some point even a competitor like Armstrong has to realize that there is a difference between fighting and merely bangiing your head against the walll.
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