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Old 11-05-12, 07:44 PM   #1
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Another horn-honking 70+ CO Driver Purposely Causes Accident

Deer Creek Canyon Road is a steep and narrow 2 laner with limited shoulders heavily traveled by cars, bicycles and motorcycles. I rode it once - never again. The steepness and length makes for a good training ride.

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingne...denverpost.com
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Old 11-05-12, 07:51 PM   #2
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Assault?

Kinda reads that way to me.

Maybe he shoulda had his leaf rake on the bike!
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Old 11-05-12, 07:51 PM   #3
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So, what's the deal out there with hateful old coots in pickup trucks?
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Old 11-05-12, 07:53 PM   #4
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Old 11-05-12, 08:14 PM   #5
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So, what's the deal out there with hateful old coots in pickup trucks?
That makes me an older old coot!!

No pickup, no hate, though!!
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Old 11-05-12, 08:24 PM   #6
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here's channel 7's version

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news...ek-canyon-road
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Old 11-05-12, 08:25 PM   #7
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There are still a LOT of people out there in their 60s and 70s who resent cyclists getting in their way.

They've never ridden bikes themselves, and truly believe they are toys that should be used only on MUPs and in the backyard.

They also resent having to pay licence fees to use their motor vehicles, yet see bicycle riders getting about and pay nothing to use the same facilities.

Some of them also feel dispossessed, and want to carry it out on someone else. A bit like kicking the dog. And they regard their motor vehicle as their final refuge of freedom (if you can explain that one).

No amount of arguing, cajoling, reconciling or explaining will alter their points of views. But you need to be aware of them, take suitably action, and hope they get moved off the road sooner rather than later.

I've come to this conclusion after having discussions with various older drivers over some years in various countries. Some of them, unfortunately, get into positions of power and authority -- one in particular was a local councillor who was particularly nasty in open council meetings about cyclists, cycling infrastructure, and cycling encouragement programs.

Younger drivers have gone through courses that actually emphasise that cyclists are legitimate road users. Some carry through the attitudes of their parents, but on the whole, the majority have been, in my experience, much better to deal with in on the roads.
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Old 11-05-12, 08:32 PM   #8
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That makes me an older old coot!!

No pickup, no hate, though!!
I'm an old coot with a pickup, and a cyclist for 40+ years, but I don't see anything here that indicates the old coot "deliberately caused" an accident. An accident is a pain in the butt even when you don't cause it; hardly anybody is dumb enough to have one on purpose.
Also, it's a fact that some cyclists are jackasses, and cyclists who take themselves very seriously tend to be bigger jackasses than the rest of us. A guy who rides enough to race ought to understand the perils of blocking traffic on a narrow road (I'm not saying he was wrong, just that he has the experience to recognize the risk). A bike is always going to lose a crash with a car, no matter who has right of way.
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Old 11-05-12, 08:35 PM   #9
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This guy recently lost his home in one of the terrible CO wildfires this summer. Perhaps seeing a group of carefree bicyclists with seemingly no worries got to him a bit?
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Old 11-05-12, 08:45 PM   #10
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I'm an old coot with a pickup, and a cyclist for 40+ years, but I don't see anything here that indicates the old coot "deliberately caused" an accident. An accident is a pain in the butt even when you don't cause it; hardly anybody is dumb enough to have one on purpose.
Also, it's a fact that some cyclists are jackasses, and cyclists who take themselves very seriously tend to be bigger jackasses than the rest of us. A guy who rides enough to race ought to understand the perils of blocking traffic on a narrow road (I'm not saying he was wrong, just that he has the experience to recognize the risk). A bike is always going to lose a crash with a car, no matter who has right of way.
If he was riding single file (as claimed) and was to the right as far as he could, he was following CO law. CO has a 3 foot passing clearance requirement. The facts will likely be decided by a jury - or more likely in an insurance settlement.

As I know that road, honking the horn could have no effect, as there is no place to go - no shoulder on much of it. There are no statements that any were riding double. Purposely? Well, if you pass someone without a 3 foot clearance when required by law??? - after honking and honking. I guess opinions will differ. I know mine.
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Old 11-05-12, 08:48 PM   #11
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This guy recently lost his home in one of the terrible CO wildfires this summer. Perhaps seeing a group of carefree bicyclists with seemingly no worries got to him a bit?
Yeah, I lost my home in bushfires, too, but it didn't make me impatient and wanting to pay back on people. Rather the opposite.

However, I do know of people who were victims of the same bushfires, and some have committed suicide because of the feeling of hopelessness. Others still haven't recovered physically or emotionally four years later. But I've ridden in their areas, and haven't felt threatened in any way. It's more the city drivers up for the weekend that I have to watch out for.
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Old 11-05-12, 08:51 PM   #12
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Yeah, I lost my home in bushfires, too, but it didn't make me impatient and wanting to pay back on people. Rather the opposite.

However, I do know of people who were victims of the same bushfires, and some have committed suicide because of the feeling of hopelessness. Others still haven't recovered physically or emotionally four years later. But I've ridden in their areas, and haven't felt threatened in any way. It's more the city drivers up for the weekend that I have to watch out for.
Yes, but you aren't a 71 yo coot (as previously stated by another poster).

I agree with you, but folks all react differently.
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Old 11-05-12, 08:54 PM   #13
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...but I don't see anything here that indicates the old coot "deliberately caused" an accident.
He may or may not have intentionally hit the cyclist, but something is radically amiss given he was honking repeatedly (obviously aware of the cyclists) and then hit one of them. Intent? Carelessness? Incompetence? Something more than a true 'accident'.
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Old 11-05-12, 09:12 PM   #14
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Yes, but you aren't a 71 yo coot (as previously stated by another poster).

I agree with you, but folks all react differently.
Trust me, I sometimes feel like I am a 71yo coot... and probably behave like one.
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Old 11-05-12, 09:36 PM   #15
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I have a problem with all the emphasis on this perpetrator's age. Over that past few months I've been in several states. In all of them I've seen drivers being aggressive toward other drivers. In all of them I have witnessed behaviour that could only be described as deliberately trying to cause a collision. In all of them I have seen people who, by their behaviour, drove as though they just didn't care about anyone else on the road, whether in another vehicle or on a bike.

These drivers appeared to range from their early 20's to very old.

My last personal bike-car conflict that was caused by the car was in Highlands Ranch and the driver was female and appeared in her early 30's.
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Old 11-05-12, 10:03 PM   #16
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I have a problem with all the emphasis on this perpetrator's age. Over that past few months I've been in several states. In all of them I've seen drivers being aggressive toward other drivers. In all of them I have witnessed behaviour that could only be described as deliberately trying to cause a collision. In all of them I have seen people who, by their behaviour, drove as though they just didn't care about anyone else on the road, whether in another vehicle or on a bike.

These drivers appeared to range from their early 20's to very old.

My last personal bike-car conflict that was caused by the car was in Highlands Ranch and the driver was female and appeared in her early 30's.
Yes, HO, you are correct. I only included 70+ in the title because there was another similar incident near here (in Longmont) recently involving a 70+'r honking his horn and driving unsafely, and also to distinguish it as a 50+ topic (just a bit) and not an A&S post, hoping to keep it from being moved.

I got a kick out of the post calling him an "old coot" - sort of insulting the 30 or more posters on this forum who are 70+.

My apologies.
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Old 11-05-12, 10:21 PM   #17
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There are still a LOT of people out there in their of all ages who resent cyclists getting in their way.

They've never ridden bikes themselves,or can't put themselves into the rider's "shoes" and truly believe they are toys that should be used only on MUPs and in the backyard.

They also resent having to pay licence fees to use their motor vehicles, yet see bicycle riders getting about and pay nothing to use the same facilities, or cyclists apparently ignoring the traffic laws.

Some of them also feel dispossessed, and want to carry it out on someone else. A bit like kicking the dog. And they regard their motor vehicle as their final refuge of freedom (if you can explain that one).

No amount of arguing, cajoling, reconciling or explaining will alter their points of views. But you need to be aware of them, take suitably action, and hope they get moved off the road sooner rather than later.

I've come to this conclusion after having discussions with drivers of all ages over some years in various countries. Some of them, unfortunately, get into positions of power and authority -- one in particular was a local councillor who was particularly nasty in open council meetings about cyclists, cycling infrastructure, and cycling encouragement programs.

Younger drivers have gone through courses that actually emphasise that cyclists are legitimate road users. Some carry through the attitudes reflecting their youth and inexperience, and on the whole, the majority have been, in my experience, much scarier to deal with in on the roads.
Modified yours a bit to reflect my experience. But I'm just a youngster yet, with a few years to go until I hit the 60's.
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Old 11-05-12, 10:25 PM   #18
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There are still a LOT of people out there in their 60s and 70s who resent cyclists getting in their way.

They've never ridden bikes themselves, and truly believe they are toys that should be used only on MUPs and in the backyard.

They also resent having to pay licence fees to use their motor vehicles, yet see bicycle riders getting about and pay nothing to use the same facilities.

Some of them also feel dispossessed, and want to carry it out on someone else. A bit like kicking the dog. And they regard their motor vehicle as their final refuge of freedom (if you can explain that one).

No amount of arguing, cajoling, reconciling or explaining will alter their points of views. But you need to be aware of them, take suitably action, and hope they get moved off the road sooner rather than later.

I've come to this conclusion after having discussions with various older drivers over some years in various countries. Some of them, unfortunately, get into positions of power and authority -- one in particular was a local councillor who was particularly nasty in open council meetings about cyclists, cycling infrastructure, and cycling encouragement programs.

Younger drivers have gone through courses that actually emphasise that cyclists are legitimate road users. Some carry through the attitudes of their parents, but on the whole, the majority have been, in my experience, much better to deal with in on the roads.
You get a near-total pass for not knowing how American roads are funded, but not a total pass. So-called user fees (registration, fuel tax, tolls) pay for about 45% of all roadways here. If you exclude interstates, which mostly exclude cyclists, and add in police, court costs and medical costs not paid for by the offending motorists or their insurance, then that number falls rather dramatically. So, the real freeloaders on our roadways are motorists. They don't pay for what they are using/damaging. I'm okay with that, but not with people spreading the untruth about cyclists being the freeloaders.

In fact, we vote tomorrow. One of the items on my ballot will be another property tax item to fund local road repair. Guess which vehicle type is doing the damage that needs to be repaired.
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Old 11-05-12, 10:55 PM   #19
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You get a near-total pass for not knowing how American roads are funded, but not a total pass. So-called user fees (registration, fuel tax, tolls) pay for about 45% of all roadways here. If you exclude interstates, which mostly exclude cyclists, and add in police, court costs and medical costs not paid for by the offending motorists or their insurance, then that number falls rather dramatically. So, the real freeloaders on our roadways are motorists. They don't pay for what they are using/damaging. I'm okay with that, but not with people spreading the untruth about cyclists being the freeloaders.

In fact, we vote tomorrow. One of the items on my ballot will be another property tax item to fund local road repair. Guess which vehicle type is doing the damage that needs to be repaired.
I agree with what you say. I wasn't putting forward my opinion there, just what is portrayed by those under discussion.

I've spent enough of my working life -- about seven years -- working in cycling-related positions in state and local government and know well how much is spent on roads, and where the revenue comes from to do it.
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Old 11-06-12, 12:08 AM   #20
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Just finished watching the Denver TV Channel 9 piece. It contained an interview of the cyclist that was struck. After that I'm not at all sure who is ultimately at fault in this collision. Nor, am I sure the verbal jousting was one sided.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out after the CHP investigation.

After seeing the video of the road in that area I have a less than flattering impression of the cyclist's judgement. Yes, it may have been legal for them to have been there. But, being legal doesn't make it wise. A slow moving group, regardless of vehicle, riding a narrow, twisty, heavily traveled road is not what I would call wise.
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Old 11-06-12, 07:13 AM   #21
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Just finished watching the Denver TV Channel 9 piece. It contained an interview of the cyclist that was struck. After that I'm not at all sure who is ultimately at fault in this collision. Nor, am I sure the verbal jousting was one sided.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out after the CHP investigation.

After seeing the video of the road in that area I have a less than flattering impression of the cyclist's judgement. Yes, it may have been legal for them to have been there. But, being legal doesn't make it wise. A slow moving group, regardless of vehicle, riding a narrow, twisty, heavily traveled road is not what I would call wise.
Over a year or so, literally thousands of bicyclists ride that road. On any weekend you will see scores of cars parked at Wadsworth and Deer Creek Canyon Road in the unofficial "parking lot."

Another similar and popular road is Highway 73 from Morrison to Evergreen - a road I negotiate by car regularly. Again, no shoulders, winding and steep. with many cars and motorcycles. I am always afraid as I go around a sharp blind corner that there will be a bicyclist in the road on that blind curve wiwth a car coming the other way. I drive slowly enough to handle it, but many drivers do not, counting on good luck, I guess.

There were so many bicyclists running the lights (there are two) in Morrison that they instituted a special bike patrol, and gave out tickets like crazy.
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Old 11-06-12, 07:23 AM   #22
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After seeing the video of the road in that area I have a less than flattering impression of the cyclist's judgement. Yes, it may have been legal for them to have been there. But, being legal doesn't make it wise. A slow moving group, regardless of vehicle, riding a narrow, twisty, heavily traveled road is not what I would call wise.
Cyclists shouldn't have to worry about where they ride, as long as they ride sensibly. How much time would the motorist have lost by waiting? Why are people always in such a hurry? So you get to the office/store/mother-in-law's 30 seconds earlier by possibly endangering someone else. How important is that 30 seconds in the overall scheme of things.

I often wonder if people who like to go fast in cars also run around shopping centres or the office - probably not. There's something about being behind a wheel that changes the way some people behave.
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Old 11-06-12, 07:58 AM   #23
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If physically possible, roads should always have shoulders when built--cars need a place to pull off safely in a breakdown or emergency.
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Old 11-06-12, 08:20 AM   #24
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"Cited for careless driving"

I'd think he could beat that. It sounds to me like he carefully did exactly what he intended to do.
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Old 11-06-12, 09:02 AM   #25
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.

I got a kick out of the post calling him an "old coot" - sort of insulting the 30 or more posters on this forum who are 70+.

My apologies.

I'm 66. You can call me an "old coot" anytime. I kinda like it.
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