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Old 11-21-12, 07:24 PM   #1
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New Drivetrains!

Stopped by the LBS today to check out the new DA 9000 11sp road and SRAM XX1 mountain groups. Pretty nice stuff. I'll probably wait a couple seasons before giving them a try. I'm happy with SRAM Red and XO groups on my bikes now. Sorry no pictures. Just making idle chat.
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Old 11-22-12, 04:50 AM   #2
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I love it when I can skip a generation or two My current stuff is still cool enough for the cool kids, but not so old as to be considered "classic." I get to look, but I don't feel impelled to pull out the wallet
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Old 11-22-12, 05:46 AM   #3
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I'm still collecting NOS Sora 8sp.

In concession to modern times I do often mix the group with a 105 derailleur and one of the New external bearing Sora cranksets.


sorry, I'm just a throwback to the old days.
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Old 11-22-12, 08:50 AM   #4
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I am currently running the stock SRAM Rival grouppo on my CAAD 10 4, it performs very well for me, maybe some new, better brake pads will be purchased but overall I am good. The new Red with the Yaw FD intrigues me, right now. I like the engineering and concept of this design, and the WiFly RD and cassette seem like a good idea with a compact crank. The cost is stopping me, bad economy and pay cut are hurting a bit. The DA 9000 is a bit of hard to wrap my mind around with the new crank and the four bolt asymmetric pattern, but change is inevitable and progress helps our riding, sometimes.

I really want to build a C&V early to mid 70's steel frame with Campy NR, like the International I had and liked, probably a Bottecchia, not necessarily correct in every aspect but in the general set up and a 5-speed freewheel on back with 53-42 on front, quill NR pedals with Campy toe clips and Christophe straps. Maybe even some Detto Pietro shoes like I had then and some wool kit to boot. Remember, you did say we were just making idle chat.

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Old 11-22-12, 09:14 AM   #5
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I love it when I can skip a generation or two My current stuff is still cool enough for the cool kids, but not so old as to be considered "classic." I get to look, but I don't feel impelled to pull out the wallet
That's how I feel about 11sp right now. My Red gruppo works great, is light and well it's paid for! Even my 7800 on the Parlee works just fine. For once I don't feel the urge to replace what I have.
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Old 11-22-12, 10:35 AM   #6
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I have the SRAM red on my road bike and the older D/A (6800? where the shifter cables come out of the side of the brake hoods) on my backup road bike. My Quarq power meter, front and rear Der and BB right bottom bracket now works well together and shifts great. I know how to adjust it. My older D/A group shifts very smooth and precise.

I like the new stuff but I know by experience that there will be some problems getting the new stuff to work on older frames and getting the chain line perfect. So I like the idea of skipping a couple of generations as well. I assume the new 11 speed equipment needs new chains, chain rings and a rear cluster plus der and brifters.

If were just a matter of money and one could take the bike into the shop and have it come out working perfectly with an upgraded gruppo, that might change my perspective.
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Old 11-22-12, 02:07 PM   #7
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I'm not sure if the new DA 9000 doesn't need a different dish to the rear wheel. I think it would depend on the wheelset. I know Mavic wheels are ok as is.
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Old 11-22-12, 04:59 PM   #8
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You Semi pro racers chasing those purses,,,must be nice to get the latest toys..

My Sram X7 gear works/shifts perfectly smooth for me..
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Old 11-22-12, 05:57 PM   #9
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You Semi pro racers chasing those purses,,,must be nice to get the latest toys..

My Sram X7 gear works/shifts perfectly smooth for me..
Most modern groups function just fine. You lose weight and gain a bit smoother action by moving up the line. Also the highest groups often are the most specific, unable to mix and match with other components. There's definitely a sweet spot in each manufacturer's line that gives the best performance and durability for the money, and it's not at the top.
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Old 11-22-12, 06:58 PM   #10
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I can see an electronic group on a new bike sometime in my future, but not in the next couple of years. I think there are still a few big improvements and integration with hydraulic road discs yet to come in this area. A wide range single chainring mountain bike group is likely, too, once it works its way down to the X.9/XT level.
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Old 11-22-12, 07:21 PM   #11
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I can see an electronic group on a new bike sometime in my future, but not in the next couple of years. I think there are still a few big improvements and integration with hydraulic road discs yet to come in this area. A wide range single chainring mountain bike group is likely, too, once it works its way down to the X.9/XT level.
How about a 1x11 mega-range electric mtb group? I'm not sold on hydraulic brakes for road use. I can see discs for cross though.
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Old 11-22-12, 07:33 PM   #12
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I'm still collecting NOS Sora 8sp.

In concession to modern times I do often mix the group with a 105 derailleur and one of the New external bearing Sora cranksets.


sorry, I'm just a throwback to the old days.
12 people here this AM and I decided to take the 8 speed touring bike early to the bakery for kolaches. I'm a throwback too.

Carry on.
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Old 11-22-12, 07:39 PM   #13
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How about a 1x11 mega-range electric mtb group? I'm not sold on hydraulic brakes for road use. I can see discs for cross though.
Sounds great once it makes it down to suborbital price levels.

I think road discs will evolve to a much more attractive form than the primitive examples seen today. Integrated hydraulics and much lighter weight will have to happen before we'll see widespread acceptance. But I do think it is coming. The industry wants to sell it.
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Old 11-23-12, 07:08 AM   #14
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I have Dura Ace on my Masi now about 6 yrs. old and recently bought a new Raleigh cyclo-cross bike with 105. I think the new 105 shifts smoother than the old Dura Ace. Were I to buy a new roadie I would probably save serious money by buying 105.
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Old 11-23-12, 08:42 AM   #15
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Stopped by the LBS today to check out the new DA 9000 11sp road and SRAM XX1 mountain groups. Pretty nice stuff. I'll probably wait a couple seasons before giving them a try. I'm happy with SRAM Red and XO groups on my bikes now. Sorry no pictures. Just making idle chat.
I was planning to head out early to do a longer ride but am stalling to let it warm up just a bit more so I'll play. I have all the clothes for all the temps but because of the large temp spread for today I' need so much layering I'd have to pull a Bob with me.

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I am currently running the stock SRAM Rival grouppo on my CAAD 10 4, it performs very well for me, maybe some new, better brake pads will be purchased but overall I am good. The new Red with the Yaw FD intrigues me, right now. I like the engineering and concept of this design, and the WiFly RD and cassette seem like a good idea with a compact crank. The cost is stopping me, bad economy and pay cut are hurting a bit. The DA 9000 is a bit of hard to wrap my mind around with the new crank and the four bolt asymmetric pattern, but change is inevitable and progress helps our riding, sometimes.

I really want to build a C&V early to mid 70's steel frame with Campy NR, like the International I had and liked, probably a Bottecchia, not necessarily correct in every aspect but in the general set up and a 5-speed freewheel on back with 53-42 on front, quill NR pedals with Campy toe clips and Christophe straps. Maybe even some Detto Pietro shoes like I had then and some wool kit to boot. Remember, you did say we were just making idle chat.

Bill
The new SRAM Red with Yaw & RD and -I've only ridden mine 3-4 rides and as you recall ran into some strange shifting issues with the RD on the last ride. I've had it readjusted by the LBS but have not ridden is since. When it works it works super. Supposedly my issue was just "extreme" cable stretch but time will tell.

Andy----I'm still very leery of 11 sp. I suspect the electronic shifting might cure my issues but I always have one of the 11 cogs that just doesn't shift crisply on my Super Record 11sp. I've blamed it on the tighter tolerances with the chain, spacings etc. I have exhausted everything I know to do to make it permanently better. I've replaced the hanger bracket, reset limit adjustments, replaced chain, cassette, etc. I take that back. I guess I haven't replaced the RD. Mine will shift great for a ride or two after an overhaul and then I start having to feather getting the chain from the 14 to the 13 after just a few rides. If I readjust it so it moves smoother the problem just moves to another cog. Mine is first generation so who knows-the later stuff might be a little better. I've never really noticed the advantages of having the additional cog. But I didn't notice that much of a difference jumping from 9 sp to 10 sp either!! I've just always found a gear that suits my cadence and keep pedaling.

While it's a little on the heavy side compared to the newer stuff, my DA 7800 10sp performs better and is lower maintenance than any other gruppo I've used. The shifting is buttery smooth and I don't touch any adjustments after replacing the cables---and that's every 2-3 years maybe?? Plus everything is so easy to adjust and work on. That gruppo is still on my older Trek so now you've got me to thinking about how I might keep that stuff long term.

Hopefully the minor issues I've had with the Red will not continue to flare up and I'll be saying the same thing about how much I like the Red on down the road.
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Old 11-23-12, 08:51 AM   #16
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Jppe,
I remember your thread about the der problems a few weeks ago, glad you got that sorted out to your satisfaction. I like the SRAM products, while I admire the engineering of the Di2 grouppos the simplicity of mechanical sets is fine for me. Red seems like a great refinement of this genre' and WiFli answers many needs for a lower hill climbing gear when needed but with the double on front. The older DA you have and reference I would buy if I had the money as an upgrade since it is known and one of the best shifting set ups of all time by many and it is not overly heavy at all against tne newest stuff.

Triples are a great thing, I had an RSX on my R500 for a few years but NW Florida is fairly flat so the super low third ring never saw any use. My compact double and 11-26 Rival do pretty well here so I am satisfied. But the new stuff is fun to look at and read about so I can dissect the engineering and design of all of it. That gives me a lot of satisfaction. Simple Elegance still does it for me.

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Old 11-23-12, 11:49 AM   #17
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Joe, I ran into similar shifting issues with my RED group (latest model) when I first got it. The cable did stretch quite a bit. Once adjusted, then readjusted after several more rides it seems to be dialed in. Hopefully that is what you are experiencing. I might try a full Gore cable setup with it once these cables are in need of replacing.

DA 7800 is probably the best, sweetest group, ever made. NealH went to 7900 and at first didn't like it as much though the hoods are more comfortable to some people. He went to Gore sealed cables and that gave the shifting a lighter touch. He likes it a lot now. I think the internal cables on the 7900 group have more friction and thus the shifting can be less smooth compared to 7800. Based on Neal's experience I'd recommend trying Gore sealed cables to anyone running 7900.
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Old 11-26-12, 08:23 PM   #18
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Just ordered the alfine IG 11. The Versa 11 brifters should be here next week and the IG build can begin in earnest.
From what I've heard, the oil bath alfine 11 is vastly superior to the alfine 8 and nexus 7..smoother and with less drag.
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Old 11-27-12, 07:01 AM   #19
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Well, I must be really old, then. I did a group ride last Friday and was the only one (of 20+ or so) with friction downtube shifters, 2 x 6. I like the feel of downtube shifting, especially when you have to be quick and precise. The drivetrain is SunTour Cyclone 1st gen with Powershifter ratchets. I must confess that I modernized with a later-1980s Shimano 600 EX freewheel. The combination is smooth as silk.

Let's see...my tourer is mid-to-late 1980s 3 x 7 SunTour X-1 wide range friction... with barcons.

My daily rider is mid-to-late 70s 2 x 6 SunTour Vx friction...also with barcons.

I'm happy with them all.
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Old 11-27-12, 12:10 PM   #20
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Well, I must be really old, then. I did a group ride last Friday and was the only one (of 20+ or so) with friction downtube shifters, 2 x 6. I like the feel of downtube shifting, especially when you have to be quick and precise. The drivetrain is SunTour Cyclone 1st gen with Powershifter ratchets. I must confess that I modernized with a later-1980s Shimano 600 EX freewheel. The combination is smooth as silk.

Let's see...my tourer is mid-to-late 1980s 3 x 7 SunTour X-1 wide range friction... with barcons.

My daily rider is mid-to-late 70s 2 x 6 SunTour Vx friction...also with barcons.

I'm happy with them all.
I can't see how dt shifters would ever be quicker, or more precise than brifters. The fact that one has to remove a hand from the bar to shift is in itself less secure and time consuming, even if you could find the lever without looking down. There is a reason why dt shifters went the way of the dinosaur. They are a bit lighter though you need an older heavier frame to use them. I don't see any upside to them unless maybe on a world tour when reliability is paramount.
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Old 11-27-12, 01:29 PM   #21
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Well, I must be really old, then. I did a group ride last Friday and was the only one (of 20+ or so) with friction downtube shifters, 2 x 6. I like the feel of downtube shifting, especially when you have to be quick and precise. The drivetrain is SunTour Cyclone 1st gen with Powershifter ratchets. I must confess that I modernized with a later-1980s Shimano 600 EX freewheel. The combination is smooth as silk.

Let's see...my tourer is mid-to-late 1980s 3 x 7 SunTour X-1 wide range friction... with barcons.

My daily rider is mid-to-late 70s 2 x 6 SunTour Vx friction...also with barcons.

I'm happy with them all.
Short of a singlespeed or fixed gear bike, there's no cleaner setup than downtube shifters. I had my dearly departed Bridgestone RB-1 set up 2x7 with Campy friction downtube shifters and it was an icon to simple, functional beauty. Only a herniated lumbar disc led me to change to Suntour power ratchet bar end shifters, which I fell in love with and have used on several bikes since.

I did recently replace the bar end shifters on my dirt road bike with Shimano Ultegra 6603 brifters because the way I ride that bike over rough terrain makes being able to stay in the drops while shifting important. It is hard to imagine anything quicker or more precise than those shifters. As soon as I get around to building up an old lugged steel frame I came upon as a fixed gear bike, I'll switch the Salsa Casseroll back to 2x8 or 3x8 with the bar ends. I'll keep the 2x10 6700 Ultegra brifters on my Roubaix unless/until I decide to upgrade to electronic shifting.

Part of the beauty of N+1 is being able to appreciate many different types of technology on bikes that work well with the different setups.
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Old 11-27-12, 01:43 PM   #22
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There is a good article about the newest Campagnolo, Shimano and SRAM top end grouppos in the 2013 Buyers Guide from RBA. They have technical data/weights as well as ride reports about all three sets. The Di2 Shimano is only mentioned, most is about the mechanical 9000 Dura Ace. they did mention that the newest Di2 will not work on the previous Dura Ace as the new Di2 uses the wiring connector from the Ultegra Di2 so you cannot reprogram the DA 10 speed to the newest 11 speed configuration. it is good reading but not in depth enough for my taste. Campagnolo is the EPS, concentrating on the Super Record.

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Old 11-27-12, 02:47 PM   #23
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I can't see how dt shifters would ever be quicker, or more precise than brifters. ...
You're right BikeWNC, and that was my point...sort of. In order to approximate the speed and precision of brifters, you have to be "on your toes" alert and in control as a DT rider. It's more difficult to achieve and there's less room for error, but the effect is strangely satisfying. I guess that's what I meant to say.
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Old 11-27-12, 02:54 PM   #24
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I use my IGH bike more than anything else..

the German Engineers , designed the Hub at Rohloff right , in the first place,
so are not really subject to Upgrade Fever.

Reminds me of the tail fin changes on US cars in the past, Vs Europeans
making the same car for several years , and improving things like Fuel economy ..

R'off recent changes a Carbon Bar compatible grip shifter, and an alternate Hub shell
for harder users , like Tandems, a 36 hole , added to the previous 32 hole.
casing splits with 9 bolts rather than 8. so still 2 spoke holes between the bolts
on the Left side.
and can be built 3 X rather than 2..

Last edited by fietsbob; 11-27-12 at 02:58 PM.
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Old 11-27-12, 03:13 PM   #25
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I use my IGH bike more than anything else..

the German Engineers , designed the Hub at Rohloff right , in the first place,
so are not really subject to Upgrade Fever.

Reminds me of the tail fin changes on US cars in the past, Vs Europeans
making the same car for several years , and improving things like Fuel economy ..

R'off recent changes a Carbon Bar compatible grip shifter, and an alternate Hub shell
for harder users , like Tandems, a 36 hole , added to the previous 32 hole.
casing splits with 9 bolts rather than 8. so still 2 spoke holes between the bolts
on the Left side.
and can be built 3 X rather than 2..
Out in the PNW, an internally geared hub makes much sense. As belt drive becomes better and more popular the chain will probably disappear too out there. Add some good disc brakes and you have an all weather bike that makes a perfect all arounder.
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