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  1. #1
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    Reduce Fat Help Get Fit?

    Thanks to another thread and some research it seems likely that fat can be converted to glucose, reducing fat and increasing available body fuel. Question is what happens next. It seems to be creating an opportunity. Is a person more likely to use the fuel to do the exercise that will result in better fitness? Or, will they just lie around and get fat again?

    Will they "think thin" and start being more active? Or, will they just pop the pill and go on as before? Or, with less fat will they become like NY Models and join the "skinny fat" crowd?

    An opportunity? But not a certainty?
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Thanks to another thread and some research it seems likely that fat can be converted to glucose, reducing fat and increasing available body fuel. Question is what happens next. It seems to be creating an opportunity. Is a person more likely to use the fuel to do the exercise that will result in better fitness? Or, will they just lie around and get fat again?

    Will they "think thin" and start being more active? Or, will they just pop the pill and go on as before? Or, with less fat will they become like NY Models and join the "skinny fat" crowd?

    An opportunity? But not a certainty?
    Sure it can, if you're a plant. Mammals don't have the required enzymes, which may be fortunate since the glyoxylate intermediate is a bit toxic.

    If you meant to say that fat can be used as an energy source and thus allow one to fuel one's activities with less glucose, a sparing effect, then you would have been correct.

    If you are talking about making transgenic people by adding the missing two enzymes to human liver cells, that's a bit on the risky side (and it would make for a testing nightmare for endurance sports) and should not be even contemplated without some extreme and redundant inducible directed cytotoxic bailouts. I actually considered doing some proof of concept work on this, but none of my colleagues could come up with an adequate safety system for the inevitable liver tumors that would result. We decided to leave that stone unturned in spite of its promise as a treatment for type 2 diabetes since it wouldn't likely be any better than dietary control.

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    Senior Member BlazingPedals's Avatar
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    We all 'burn' a little bit of fat along with the glycogen our muscles use. If you're talking about a low-carb diet to 'force' fat-burning, then it doesn't work the way you think it does. First, low carb causes you to lose water weight. Water weight may look like any other weight to the bathroom scale, but it's Good Weight if you're exercising. Lack of it means you're dehydrated. Secondly, while most of us have large reserves of energy via our body fat, it's not quickly accessible; meaning that it can only provide a trickle of energy compared to carbs. Muscles don't burn fat directly, your body has to convert it, which is an inefficient process at best. You cannot retrain your body's chemistry to do it more efficiently; you can only train it to 'get used to' the effects. When we're reduced to using only fat as fuel, it's called "bonk." Low-carb leaves your muscles depleted of glycogen, less able to sustain prolonged use, and makes recovery much slower.

    The best way to lose weight is still to eat less. Don't be afraid of eating carbs; but make sure the ones you eat are complex and 'nutrient-dense.' Or, to put it another way, avoid sugar and if you want to weigh 150 pounds, eat like a 150-pound person.

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    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
    ...

    The best way to lose weight is still to eat less. Don't be afraid of eating carbs; but make sure the ones you eat are complex and 'nutrient-dense.' Or, to put it another way, avoid sugar and if you want to weigh 150 pounds, eat like a 150-pound person.
    That may be true. Heck, I don't know...

    But currently my method is to lose weight by burning more calories through aerobic exercise (like cycling) because of its numerous ancillary benefits. That is, exercise is proven to improve overall physical and mental health and increase the chances of a person living a longer, happier, healthier life.

    Dieting just reduces weight (for awhile). And its not nearly as much fun as a ride through the woods on nice, sunny morning...
    --------------------------------------
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    Senior Member donheff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
    We all 'burn' a little bit of fat along with the glycogen our muscles use. If you're talking about a low-carb diet to 'force' fat-burning, then it doesn't work the way you think it does. First, low carb causes you to lose water weight. Water weight may look like any other weight to the bathroom scale, but it's Good Weight if you're exercising. Lack of it means you're dehydrated. Secondly, while most of us have large reserves of energy via our body fat, it's not quickly accessible; meaning that it can only provide a trickle of energy compared to carbs. Muscles don't burn fat directly, your body has to convert it, which is an inefficient process at best. You cannot retrain your body's chemistry to do it more efficiently; you can only train it to 'get used to' the effects. When we're reduced to using only fat as fuel, it's called "bonk." Low-carb leaves your muscles depleted of glycogen, less able to sustain prolonged use, and makes recovery much slower.

    The best way to lose weight is still to eat less. Don't be afraid of eating carbs; but make sure the ones you eat are complex and 'nutrient-dense.' Or, to put it another way, avoid sugar and if you want to weigh 150 pounds, eat like a 150-pound person.
    I read a bunch of stuff pro and con on low carb high fat eating and decided to try it last March. I dropped 30 pounds (from 192 to 162 at 6') and have effortlessly kept it off since. At the same time I dramatically improved my triglyceride and HDL numbers. I am not hungry and I never pay ANY attention to calories. Zero impact on my riding other than I feel great to be at my college weight.

    I suspect that the underlying reason for my weight loss is less calories but the reason that less calories is possible for me without constant food cravings is the higher fat/protein proportions in the diet. As for water weight, sure you may lose excess water in the first few days but if a 15% drop from 193 to 162 is all water then something was terribly wrong with the water. As for bonking, read some articles on high performance in ketosis.

    Now, having said all this, I will acknowledge that my experience is mine. What worked for me may not work for you. But I can say with certainty that the post above was not true for me.
    Every man is, or hopes to be, an Idler. -- Samuel Johnson

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    Senior Member locolobo13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Thanks to another thread and some research it seems likely that fat can be converted to glucose, reducing fat and increasing available body fuel. Question is what happens next. It seems to be creating an opportunity. Is a person more likely to use the fuel to do the exercise that will result in better fitness? Or, will they just lie around and get fat again?

    Will they "think thin" and start being more active? Or, will they just pop the pill and go on as before? Or, with less fat will they become like NY Models and join the "skinny fat" crowd?

    An opportunity? But not a certainty?
    Are you talking about a pill that converts fat to glucose? Or diet and exercise to reduce bodyfat?

    If diet/exercise then it has to be an ongoing process. For me it's been and still is a long road figuring out what works and doesn't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by locolobo13 View Post
    Are you talking about a pill that converts fat to glucose? Or diet and exercise to reduce bodyfat?

    If diet/exercise then it has to be an ongoing process. For me it's been and still is a long road figuring out what works and doesn't.
    Pill that converts fat to glucose that then is available for more activity.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

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    Senior Member MinnMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HawkOwl View Post
    Pill that converts fat to glucose that then is available for more activity.
    snake oil. weight loss is purely (calories burned - calories consumed). There are no magic short cuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
    snake oil. weight loss is purely (calories burned - calories consumed). There are no magic short cuts.
    The proponents, I'm still asking questions, are not talking about weight loss, at least not directly. They are talking about reducing fat which, in turn, provides more energy and more ability to exercise for more fitness. Or, so goes the thread.

    I suppose ultimately a person may or may not weigh less depending on what kind of muscles they develop. I know people who after a good exercise/diet program actually weigh quite a bit more than when they started. But, instead of high body fat they have significant muscles. They started off "skinny fat" but ended up Fit.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

  10. #10
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
    snake oil. weight loss is purely (calories burned - calories consumed). There are no magic short cuts.

    +1000!!!!

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    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    We've spent the past 6 weeks travelling through the US, and it has been astounding the number of ads on TV and radio for "cure-all elixers" ... modern developments on the old travelling medicine shows of the late 1800s/early 1900s promising all sorts of cures for all sorts of ailments, including obesity. But often with a list of disclaimers and side-effects longer than the list of potential benefits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post
    We all 'burn' a little bit of fat along with the glycogen our muscles use. If you're talking about a low-carb diet to 'force' fat-burning, then it doesn't work the way you think it does. First, low carb causes you to lose water weight. Water weight may look like any other weight to the bathroom scale, but it's Good Weight if you're exercising. Lack of it means you're dehydrated. Secondly, while most of us have large reserves of energy via our body fat, it's not quickly accessible; meaning that it can only provide a trickle of energy compared to carbs. Muscles don't burn fat directly, your body has to convert it, which is an inefficient process at best. You cannot retrain your body's chemistry to do it more efficiently; you can only train it to 'get used to' the effects. When we're reduced to using only fat as fuel, it's called "bonk." Low-carb leaves your muscles depleted of glycogen, less able to sustain prolonged use, and makes recovery much slower.

    The best way to lose weight is still to eat less. Don't be afraid of eating carbs; but make sure the ones you eat are complex and 'nutrient-dense.' Or, to put it another way, avoid sugar and if you want to weigh 150 pounds, eat like a 150-pound person.
    Actually, beta-oxidation, the process by which fatty acids are broken down into acetyl-Co-A which then enters the TCA cycle, takes place in the mitochondria and muscle cells most certainly have these organelles. Anyone remember Greg LeMond? In fact, the more aerobic training you do, the more mitochondria your muscle cells will have. Further, if you train hard under hypoglycemic conditions and avoid large releases of insulin, you can induce higher levels of the enzymes involved in beta-oxidation.

    This stuff is old news. (Interestingly enough, some of the best work was done on collegiate cyclists.) Much of it was well worked out when I was an undergraduate studying biochemistry. Better yet, the results were predicted based on assumptions of early pre-human lifestyles.

    We now return to the snake-oil.

  13. #13
    Senior Member locolobo13's Avatar
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    IDK. As a young man watching my grandparents and later in middle age watching my parents I grew to distrust pills. As they got older they had those plastic organizers separating pills into days, times, etc. They were literally taking too many pills to remember what to take when. This frightened me for some reason.

    It started out normally enough. My Dad started out with a blood thinner. There were side effects. They had a pill for that. There were different side effects. They had another pill for that. After a few years his blood chemistry was dependent on pills.

    I take thyroid medication, nasonex and glucosamine myself so can't talk too much. 5-6 years ago my Dr was trying to talk me into taking statins. My cholesterol numbers were just borderline. I resisted. Then I rediscovered my bicycle. My weight and cholesterol numbers dropped.

    While not a phobia I suppose I have an illogical fear of ending up dependent on a box of pills to regulate my days. So I would rather exercise if possible to remove fat than take a pill. Just my 2 cents.

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    Senior Member DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by locolobo13 View Post

    While not a phobia I suppose I have an illogical fear of ending up dependent on a box of pills to regulate my days. So I would rather exercise if possible to remove fat than take a pill. Just my 2 cents.
    There is just all sorts of evidence supporting your statement. Unfortunately they do not work for everyone, but certainly exercise, weight control, diet, etc., should be the starting point.

  15. #15
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    locolobo13
    IDK. As a young man watching my grandparents and later in middle age watching my parents I grew to distrust pills. As they got older they had those plastic organizers separating pills into days, times, etc. They were literally taking too many pills to remember what to take when. This frightened me for some reason.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    There is just all sorts of evidence supporting your statement. Unfortunately they do not work for everyone, but certainly exercise, weight control, diet, etc., should be the starting point.
    As a travelling nurse I saw that all too frequently and it is often a manifestation of our fragmented health care system: a person with diabetes often has multiple issues (heart, BP, cholesterol, kidney, etc...) and sees multiple physicians and/or is in and out of the hospital. And, every time she sees a physician she complains of something else and so he prescribes yet another pill...

    Actually, the worst culprit were the hospitals: the patient would come out of there with new or changed meds that their family physician knew nothing about and would not have prescribed.

    A big part of my job was coordinating all those different physicians and their treatments; The conversation went something like:
    "Hey, Dr. X, I'm a nurse working with this patient: Dr Y (or hospital Y) prescribed this and this and this. Do want her taking this stuff?" The answer was almost always: "Hell No!".

    My patients were fortunate to have a nurse who knew the conditions and the treatments.

    Otherwise they would have to do that by themselves and most people either don't have the inclination or assume: "the doctor always knows what's right"...

    Healthcare needs to be a partnership. People need to watch out for their own medical care just as they would their house when they have multiple contractors coming in and out of it... But, the typical patient just doesn't have the knowledge to challenge the physician. So that is why the best physicians welcome a knowledgeable patient who participates in his own health care and asks questions. It makes his job a lot easier and it makes your life a lot better and longer...

    Most physicians WANT you to be healthy. But they know they can't do it alone. They do their best work when they have an interested, involved partner in your health -- not just a passive pill-taker... (And, if your physician wants you to be just a passive pill-taker, I would recommend finding another physician).
    --------------------------------------
    bikes: 1992 Cannondale R500, 2012 Trek DS 8.5, 2008 LeMond Poprad

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    Quote Originally Posted by locolobo13 View Post
    While not a phobia I suppose I have an illogical fear of ending up dependent on a box of pills to regulate my days. So I would rather exercise if possible to remove fat than take a pill. Just my 2 cents.
    I don't think your fear is really "illogical." I hate taking pills. Being a very busy, but lazy, person I let myself go. My diet, and natural tendency, has led to some cholesterol control medications. Very mild and no noticeable side effects. BP was mildly elevated (pre-hypertension to mild hypertension levels) so a mild generic pill once a day controls that. Now the diabetes thing is looking at me. And I believe, as does the doctor, that all of it would go away if I lost the extra 50+ pounds I'm carrying around and exercised more. No longer working the long hours I used to work, being too busy isn't a good excuse. I have already cut my caloric intake and I'm hoping that I enjoy bike riding as exercise so that in six months to a year I am seeing better numbers and I can close my pill box for a while.
    The Old Sarge

  17. #17
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    I think this new study is relevant to this discussion:

    it says that we are living longer but sicker lives. And, most of what makes us sick is too much of a good thing (fats and sugars) and not enough of less desirable things like exercise:

    "A sick world: We live longer, with more pain and illness
    ... Over three million deaths globally were attributable in 2010 to excess body weight, more than three times as many as malnutrition.

    "We've gone from a world 20 years ago where people weren't getting enough to eat to a world now where too much food and unhealthy food - even in developing countries - is making us sick," said Majid Ezzati of Imperial College London, one of the lead researchers.

    However, the major health problems now are diseases and conditions that don't kill, but make us ill. We now live longer with more health problems that cause pain, impair mobility, and prevent us seeing, hearing and thinking clearly. ..."


    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8BC12K20121214
    --------------------------------------
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    Senior Member DnvrFox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    As a travelling nurse I saw that all too frequently and it is often a manifestation of our fragmented health care system: a person with diabetes often has multiple issues (heart, BP, cholesterol, kidney, etc...) and sees multiple physicians and/or is in and out of the hospital. And, every time she sees a physician she complains of something else and so he prescribes yet another pill...

    Actually, the worst culprit were the hospitals: the patient would come out of there with new or changed meds that their family physician knew nothing about and would not have prescribed.

    A big part of my job was coordinating all those different physicians and their treatments; The conversation went something like:
    "Hey, Dr. X, I'm a nurse working with this patient: Dr Y (or hospital Y) prescribed this and this and this. Do want her taking this stuff?" The answer was almost always: "Hell No!".

    My patients were fortunate to have a nurse who knew the conditions and the treatments.

    Otherwise they would have to do that by themselves and most people either don't have the inclination or assume: "the doctor always knows what's right"...

    Healthcare needs to be a partnership. People need to watch out for their own medical care just as they would their house when they have multiple contractors coming in and out of it... But, the typical patient just doesn't have the knowledge to challenge the physician. So that is why the best physicians welcome a knowledgeable patient who participates in his own health care and asks questions. It makes his job a lot easier and it makes your life a lot better and longer...

    Most physicians WANT you to be healthy. But they know they can't do it alone. They do their best work when they have an interested, involved partner in your health -- not just a passive pill-taker... (And, if your physician wants you to be just a passive pill-taker, I would recommend finding another physician).
    My wife is (was) an excellent certified RN Case Manager, and a legal review nurse. She still, at 75, maintains her RN license. My son is an attorney, very bright and very successful.

    We have been working 7 years now to try and get assistance with her extreme PHN (post-herpetic-neuralgia, from Shingles) pain - so painful that she cries at night.

    We have a University Hospital here. We see a neurologist there, and there is a so-called "pain clinic" - which is actually an "injection clinic." There is also a NP who works in pain. Do any of them talk to each other? Nope. There is NO team approach, no nutritionist, no pain psychologist. Our son goes with us to all appts. We get conflicting info. The Neuro does not read the notes of the other docs and nurses, and vice versa. No one with comprehensive knowledge of all modalities. No "team" meetings regarding difficult cases. The NP has never met the neuro.

    We are currently on a nationwide search for the very best, coordinated approach. We have located a company, that, for a fee, arranges for conversations with the top docs in the US of A. The docs also charge for their time in these conversations. Yesterday, my son spoke with the top Doc at Johns Hopkins for about an hour, in an attempt to figure out where we should go for a truly comprehensive and knowledgeable approch to pain control and management, and to review current treatment modalities, and, most importantly, how they have been applied. What he learned is that, according to the JH doc (rated as the best in the US of A), much (almost all) of what has been done so far has been done incorrectly.

    Yes, she takes pills. Not a lot. But if you were to sit with her, as I did 3 nights ago, and she is literally crying (and sometimes screaming) from the pain, you would understand why. And, in the final analysis, it is up to the PATIENT to find the medical care really needed. We are now making decisions as to where to go as there is nothing in this state that is top notch.

    In a recent review by a national magazine on the top 200 pain "clinics" in the US of A, our state was not mentioned.

    By the way, get your Shingles vaccination - please. They were not available 7 years ago.
    Last edited by DnvrFox; 12-14-12 at 09:08 AM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Sarge View Post
    ... I have already cut my caloric intake and I'm hoping that I enjoy bike riding as exercise so that in six months to a year I am seeing better numbers and I can close my pill box for a while. ...
    Best of luck with that!

    bike riding not only burns calories and helps you to lose weight, but it strengthens your cardiovascular system (which is more than "just" the heart -- it is the whole circulatory system) and helps to get blood, oxygen and nutrients where they are needed -- so the peripheral parts from your head to your toes can live a longer, healthier life.

    Just as your car doesn't do well if the gas doesn't get from the tank to the engine, neither does your brain or your legs if they are starved for fuel.

    Bike riding, as does all aerobic exercise, provides multiple benefits that will improve your chances of a longer, healthier and happier life.
    --------------------------------------
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    Senior Member GeorgeBMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DnvrFox View Post
    ...
    We have a University Hospital here. We see a neurologist there, and there is a so-called "pain clinic" - which is actually an "injection clinic." There is also a NP who works in pain. Do any of them talk to each other? Nope. There is NO team approach, no nutritionist, no pain psychologist. Our son goes with us to all appts. We get conflicting info. The Neuro does not read the notes of the other docs and nurses, and vice versa. No one with comprehensive knowledge of all modalities. No "team" meetings regarding difficult cases. The NP has never met the neuro.

    We are currently on a nationwide search for the very best, coordinated approach.... .
    My thoughts and my prayers go out to you and your wife.

    I think she is very, very fortunate to have you and your son on her team. I doubt that she could do better than the two of you...
    --------------------------------------
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    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    I recommend raspberry extract. I hear it works really well.

  22. #22
    Long Distance Cyclist Machka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
    I recommend raspberry extract. I hear it works really well.
    Did you hear that from DrOz?






    Actually fruit/nut extracts do work well as flavouring for cakes ... add a drop or two of orange or raspberry or almond to your plain white cake and it will have a delicious flavour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
    As a travelling nurse I saw that all too frequently and it is often a manifestation of our fragmented health care system: a person with diabetes often has multiple issues (heart, BP, cholesterol, kidney, etc...) and sees multiple physicians and/or is in and out of the hospital. And, every time she sees a physician she complains of something else and so he prescribes yet another pill...

    Actually, the worst culprit were the hospitals: the patient would come out of there with new or changed meds that their family physician knew nothing about and would not have prescribed.

    A big part of my job was coordinating all those different physicians and their treatments; The conversation went something like:
    "Hey, Dr. X, I'm a nurse working with this patient: Dr Y (or hospital Y) prescribed this and this and this. Do want her taking this stuff?" The answer was almost always: "Hell No!".

    My patients were fortunate to have a nurse who knew the conditions and the treatments.

    Otherwise they would have to do that by themselves and most people either don't have the inclination or assume: "the doctor always knows what's right"...

    Healthcare needs to be a partnership. People need to watch out for their own medical care just as they would their house when they have multiple contractors coming in and out of it... But, the typical patient just doesn't have the knowledge to challenge the physician. So that is why the best physicians welcome a knowledgeable patient who participates in his own health care and asks questions. It makes his job a lot easier and it makes your life a lot better and longer...

    Most physicians WANT you to be healthy. But they know they can't do it alone. They do their best work when they have an interested, involved partner in your health -- not just a passive pill-taker... (And, if your physician wants you to be just a passive pill-taker, I would recommend finding another physician).
    From experience with different hospitals and medical providers in multiple states and being in a position to hear them talk informally I can not diagree with you more. The current medical system is designed to put the patient at a significant disadvantage. Most doctors I have encountered do not want patients to be fully responsible. Oh they say they do. They have reams of paperwork saying they do. But, all that is set up in such a way the lay patient has no way of actually understanding what is being presented, let alone make a meaningful contribution. I guess what the head nurse of one section of a hospital told me is actually true: "We don't get paid for treating patients. We get paid for what the patients bring to us. If we could just eliminate the patients we'd be much happier. Patients are such a pain". Lest you think she is unique; my experience indicates she is not.

    In the past few years I've acted as my own advocate and for others. Finding a medical professional who is actually interested enough in the patient rather than the money the patient brings is extremely rare. I've found some pretty good mechanics. The neurosurgeon who worked on me was outstanding. But, he was the exception. And then, I'm not sure that everyone got the same treatment. He and I are similar personality and intellectual types so things were obviously a bit difference. To sidetrack: At one hospital when I asked to speak to the attending I was told: "I'll see if the doctor wants to talk to you. She normally doesn't speak to others." When I informed them I was the HIPPA designee they complied, but it was obvious it was being doing under duress. Why all this? Fact is the medical industry is just that, an industry. It clearly knows who it customers are. They are not the patients. The customers are the insurance company or government agency that sets the standards and pays the bills.

    Mix this with the over specialization that is currently the fad and asking a sick person to find the energy and skill to wend their way through and find good treatment is asking too much.

    That doctors are heavily focused on income is illustrated by all the non-prescription health supplements now on sale in their offices while their union simultaneously lobbies for their elimination by regulation.

    If you find a competent, patient oriented health professional do not tell anyone else. Hoard the knowledge because you have found gold.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

  24. #24
    A might bewildered... Dudelsack's Avatar
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    Reduce Fat Help Get Fit?

    Dude. I will sell you some raspberry extract at my office. Cash and carry only. Bring small denomination bills and I'll toss in this stuff that converts fatty acids to glucose. The pounds will melt away....

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    Although some, maybe most, have jumped to the conclusion that I'm a fan of Raspberry Extract that couldn't be further from the truth. I've done my best to put everything in a question mode. But with this crowd apparently that isn't possible. Now, however, I'm going to give my perineum a break and jump off the fence.

    Like a lot of folks here I take what I'm told my MDs with a shaker of salt. I take statements by Dr. Oz with a whole case of salt. The statements he made were unequivocal. To my mind, what he says isn't enough to make me spend my money. I didn't go to the effort of researching the few studies that seem to support what he said. Even if they are correct the amount of benefit has to be so slight as to not be worth the effort.
    It is better to smell the flowers than taste the roots.

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